Newbie's Documentary - Questions

[Querorz]

Hey guys,

Last year i made a trip to the USA for 45 days for fishing. And i recorded every moment of my fishing with 2 Gopros and a Lumix 4K camera. I want to turn all these videos to a documentary.

I will be using a nice gaming PC laptop with 32 GB RAM.

1- Should i encode my videos? I want full HD picture.

Gopro videos are : 5 mb/s quality . MP4 format. So , 1 minute video is 300 mb.
Lumix videos are : 3 mb/s quality . MTS format. So , 1 minute video is 180 mb.


2- I will basically be cutting videos and arranging them. So, i don't need a super complicated software. I need something fast and practical. Which software should i buy and learn? Adobe Premiere Pro lookt little too complicated for me but if this is the best one, i can try learning it. Price doesn't matter.


Thank you.

[Querorz]

Hey guys

[Anonymous]

Hey guys

Try Sony Vegas. I do not know about encoding sorry..

[redwudz]

I would also probably consider using an intermediate codec to allow frame accurate editing.
Avid Codecs / DNxHD or Grass Valley HQX Codec are two possibilities if they will work with your editor and your cameras.

MP4 or most highly compressed codecs are not great for editing as you would need to cut only on a I frame or
re-encode at the cut point to have frame accurate editing.

What your final output format/codec will be usually depends on how you want to display your video. Blu-ray is one option if you want a disc for playback in HD.

Finally you need lots of hard drive space, especially with intermediate codecs. I use 1TB or larger drives. At least two.

Others here may have better advice.

And welcome to our forums.

[smrpix]

Vegas and Premiere are about equally hard/easy to learn and equally capable. i would lean towards Pemiere these days because Vegas is about to be deprecated. Both have free trials. You don't have to learn everything to get started.

On a strong system you can probably rough things in without using an intermediate codec. If you do need more responsiveness, consider a proxy/relink workflow so space requirements aren't overwheming.

[budwzr]

Vegas Pro and Premiere are both pretty much maxed out on new features. Then you get into Motion Graphics which is a more complicated world.

[Querorz]

Guys, i am doing lots of reading but i can't find a simple enough explanation to understand it.

Ok. I want to turn my videos to a 500 kb/s quality video. I don't know much about video formats. But my purpose to achieve is a HD broadcastable video quality.

So , i know the format and the codec are different thing. But how do i decide which codec to go with? I have 600 GB of very high quality video. So i got a lot of encoding ahead. Maybe years?

1- What does an "intermediate codec" mean? What makes it intermediate? What is the advantage of it?

2- When encoded, will my video still be Mpeg4 or a different format? If so , what format to go with?

3- Is a 500 kb/s video editable or still too big? Because i probably need to unite 30-40 different video files to make 1 single project?

Guys please consider me an idiot and be little more clear with me .


By the way i bought Adobe Premiere Pro.

[Mr Chris]

I want to turn my videos to a 500 kb/s quality video. I don't know much about video formats. But my purpose to achieve is a HD broadcastable video quality.

Well, there may be some issues there, but we'll get to that in a minute.

1- What does an "intermediate codec" mean? What makes it intermediate? What is the advantage of it?

In simple terms, some codecs are more suited to the editing process than others. Depending on what precisely your source videos are, you may get a very real benefit from converting your originals to a different codec, editing them, and then finally compressing the output into its "delivery" format.

2- When encoded, will my video still be Mpeg4 or a different format? If so , what format to go with?

It can be pretty much anything you like, from uncompressed to DVD-compliant and anything in between. These are decisions you'll have to make yourself, but if you want some advice, I'd recommend sharing a couple of short unmodified clips with us. Also, what's the final destination? (Blu-ray? YouTube? etc.)

3- Is a 500 kb/s video editable or still too big? Because i probably need to unite 30-40 different video files to make 1 single project?

Fun fact: DV, the format which became probably the consumer-level standard back in the late 90s, runs at roughly 25Mb/s. Standard-definition DVDs can be up to about 8Mb/s. Where does your figure of 500kb/s come from? Granted, there have been huge advances in codec technology and I can't imagine a great deal of high-speed action in your fishing videos, but for full broadcastable HD, 500kb/s sounds on the stingy side.

My advice would be to install Premiere, start a dummy project, import three or four of your videos, and have a play around. That really is the best way to get the basics before going on to your proper project.

[Querorz]

Chris, great info man. Please stay with me for a couple more posts and i will be done.

1- Ok. So, i need an intermediate codec. That's for sure.

2- My final destination might possibly be a Bluray. I don't know how far i can go with my documentary. Sure. I will share some footage with you as it is uploaded.

3- Ok. How did i get to that 500 kb/s? I often download movies. And if every 1 hour of that movie is about 1 GB, that movie is crystal clear on a 46" TV. And 500 kb/sec means 1.8 GB size every hour. So that should be more than enough for me. And i don't think any of the HD broadcasts on TV is nearly as well as those 1 GB/hour movies. So where am i doing a mistake?

So , are you saying for my purposes, 500 kb/s is too good or not good enough? I guess it is too big to work on but not good enough for TV broadcast. Is this what you mean?


I will start working on Premiere very hardly but before that i need some encoded video. Ok, i guess i decided on Avid DNxHD but i couldn't figure out how to download or buy it.


This is where i end up. http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/en_US/download/en423319 This is just a codec file. Not the editing tool.

[Querorz]

https://youtu.be/Zi5_ngOHfgY 25 FPS

[SameSelf]

Chris, great info man. Please stay with me for a couple more posts and i will be done.

1- Ok. So, i need an intermediate codec. That's for sure.

2- My final destination might possibly be a Bluray. I don't know how far i can go with my documentary. Sure. I will share some footage with you as it is uploaded.

3- Ok. How did i get to that 500 kb/s? I often download movies. And if every 1 hour of that movie is about 1 GB, that movie is crystal clear on a 46" TV. And 500 kb/sec means 1.8 GB size every hour. So that should be more than enough for me. And i don't think any of the HD broadcasts on TV is nearly as well as those 1 GB/hour movies. So where am i doing a mistake?

So , are you saying for my purposes, 500 kb/s is too good or not good enough? I guess it is too big to work on but not good enough for TV broadcast. Is this what you mean?


I will start working on Premiere very hardly but before that i need some encoded video. Ok, i guess i decided on Avid DNxHD but i couldn't figure out how to download or buy it.


This is where i end up. http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/en_US/download/en423319 This is just a codec file. Not the editing tool.

Some thoughts:

1. You don't really need an intermediate codec unless you have to be super precise with your cuts. Unfortunately, your MP4 and MTS sources are already in a delivery format, so transcoding to an intermediate format is a needless step except for only the most demanding post-production workflows, not to mention it introduces generational losses. If all you are doing is making cuts on your video, I would avoid transcoding.

2. If you want to author a Bluray you will need an authoring package in addition to an NLE. Which one to recommend depends on if you want fancy menus or not.

3. Don't compare your video to Hollywood. Those encodes start with VERY high quality masters (think 6K and up, super high bitrates, perfectly exposed with very little noise, 4:4:4, and even raw) and the encodes get individually tweaked for each and every scene to produce the best, artifact free results. You, unfortunately, are starting with delivery quality content that is already highly compressed and is only 4:2:0. So, even though your Lumix content is 4K, the color channels are really only HD, and it is doubtful the camera OTF can resolve a full 1000 lines anyway before hitting the noise floor. If you could afford a Red or Arri camera, then you too could have pristine video and squish the bitrate to 500 kbps. However, the rest of us need all the bitrate we can get because our "masters" tend to be noisy which confuses encoders, and we take a one-size-fits-all approach to encoding.

Bottomline, if I were you, I would focus on a lossless workflow that allows you to cut and reassemble your footage without any re-encoding.

[Mr Chris]

Chris, great info man. Please stay with me for a couple more posts and i will be done.

1- Ok. So, i need an intermediate codec. That's for sure.

2- My final destination might possibly be a Bluray. I don't know how far i can go with my documentary. Sure. I will share some footage with you as it is uploaded.

3- Ok. How did i get to that 500 kb/s? I often download movies. And if every 1 hour of that movie is about 1 GB, that movie is crystal clear on a 46" TV. And 500 kb/sec means 1.8 GB size every hour. So that should be more than enough for me. And i don't think any of the HD broadcasts on TV is nearly as well as those 1 GB/hour movies. So where am i doing a mistake?

So , are you saying for my purposes, 500 kb/s is too good or not good enough? I guess it is too big to work on but not good enough for TV broadcast. Is this what you mean?


I will start working on Premiere very hardly but before that i need some encoded video. Ok, i guess i decided on Avid DNxHD but i couldn't figure out how to download or buy it.


This is where i end up. http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/en_US/download/en423319 This is just a codec file. Not the editing tool.

I think you're in danger of getting bogged down in the technological aspects when really you'd be better off getting to grips with the editing side of things. To take your points one at a time:

1) Not necessarily. Import a handful of your clips into Premiere as-is and do a little cutting, add some transitions and effects etc., and see how things are. Does everything seem to work smoothly? If yes, then great - no intermediate codec required! On the other hand, if everything goes sluggish and laggy, then that's the time to start worrying about such things.

2) If it's Blu-ray quality you're working towards, then I'd recommend a far higher bitrate. In fact, general good practise is to finish your editing and output a super-high bitrate master - lossless if your setup can stretch to it - and then make your lower bitrate individual encodes (e.g. one for Blu-ray, one for DVD, another for YouTube etc.) from that.

3) I was saying that 500kb/s is on the low side all round. Computers of 10-15 years ago could handle editing at far higher bitrates, so I see no reason to go so low. (Unless storage space is an issue - is it?)

Again, just dig in and get your hands dirty in Premiere, and see how far you get - it's not as scary as you think!

[Querorz]

Ok guys. I understand why i should try to edit them unencoded and i started learning Premiere Pro yesterday. I will start another thread if i can't handle the operation.

Sameself , you said "You don't really need an intermediate codec unless you have to be super precise with your cuts" . What do you mean? What difference is a codec gonna make for cutting the video.

Space is not an issue for me(i guess). I am working with a 6 TB hard drive. Hope this will be enough.

I got a question about editing. Let's say i have a 30 minutes documentary project. And in this project, i want to use a little part(5 minutes let's say) from a 2 hour , 30 GB video. Will the project have to handle all 30 GB burden for only a very little part of this video? Because i need to import probably 150 GB of video for every 30 minute project i will work on.

[smrpix]

You load the entire card into Premiere and select the sections you want as subclips.

Many people choose to transcode only the subclpped "selects."

For this kind of project you may want to use a proxy wokflow: make low resolution i-frame only copies of your footage, edit those and then link back to your original sources for final render and output.

[Querorz]

Smrpix, man what about this? Gopro creates a 50 times smaller sized LRV file for every Mpeg file created. So , i can use the LRV files for the whole project and change them with the Mpeg s before the render.

[SameSelf]

Ok guys. I understand why i should try to edit them unencoded and i started learning Premiere Pro yesterday. I will start another thread if i can't handle the operation.

Sameself , you said "You don't really need an intermediate codec unless you have to be super precise with your cuts" . What do you mean? What difference is a codec gonna make for cutting the video.

Space is not an issue for me(i guess). I am working with a 6 TB hard drive. Hope this will be enough.

I got a question about editing. Let's say i have a 30 minutes documentary project. And in this project, i want to use a little part(5 minutes let's say) from a 2 hour , 30 GB video. Will the project have to handle all 30 GB burden for only a very little part of this video? Because i need to import probably 150 GB of video for every 30 minute project i will work on.

By super-precise cuts, I mean cutting on a B-frame at 4:15:12 instead of the the nearest I-frame at either 4:15:00 or 4:16:00 for one second long GOPs. Delivery codec (H.264) GOPs are made up of I-, P-, and B-frames. Some NLEs will only cut on I-frames and others will tell you that is what you should be doing anyway. Now if you absolutely need to cut on P- and B- frames then you can transcode to an Intra only codec like smrpix mentions. But you have to trade off the time, disk space, generational losses/artifacts. For me, whenever I am dealing with content that is already encoded as H.264 (hint, I try to avoid doing so), it is simply not worth the effort to transcode to an Intra only format. I can use a fade in/out or similar transition instead. Anyway, I think most modern versions of NLEs handle H.264 content losslessly. I need to look into that in my lossless thread.

As for your 5 minute clip of a 30 minute video question: that is what an NLE is for. Don't sweat the fact you only need a small portion. You yourself said you are working on a 6 TB drive, so why would 150 GB be a problem?

Working with proxies is really only for those whose systems can't handle the master files. For example, 6K raw content that is simply too big for even monster workstations. However, proxy workflows are more complex. I would seriously discourage anyone but the most advanced editor from using them unless your system is just painfully slow scrubbing the footage. But most modern systems and NLEs can handle AVCHD content just fine now.

Honestly, if this is your first time editing video and working in Premiere, you are sweating some really strange details. I would focus on just getting your project completed and out the door. Then afterwards, go back and reflect on the workflow. See if there are any ways to tweak it and make it better. I can assure you that no amount of discussion on this forum will reveal every pitfall you might encounter. Everyone's workflow is unique. For example, I don't use Premiere's bundled encoder. I frameserve out of PP to the x264 encoder. But that is only one workflow. I use completely different ones when I am authoring Blurays or DVDs. However, none of my workflows require the use of proxies even for the rare 4K video I have come across. And I always try to edit on the masters (versus an intermediate) and minimize the generations between the master and final encode.

[smrpix]

You can use the .LRV files. They are GoPro's version of proxies -- very small h.264 i-frame files.

A couple of provisos. You will have to change the extensions from .LRV to something else for Premiere to work with them. I can confirm that .MP4 .MPG and .MOV all work fine. I would recommend moving them to another folder and using .MP4, matching the names of the full sized files as that will make replacing the footage easier later.

[Anonymous]

OP what model Lumix camera do you have? Just curious

[Anonymous]

Vegas Pro and Premiere are both pretty much maxed out on new features. Then you get into Motion Graphics which is a more complicated world.

What is Motion Graphics and what program does it?

[Anonymous]

Chris, great info man. Please stay with me for a couple more posts and i will be done.

1- Ok. So, i need an intermediate codec. That's for sure.

2- My final destination might possibly be a Bluray. I don't know how far i can go with my documentary. Sure. I will share some footage with you as it is uploaded.

3- Ok. How did i get to that 500 kb/s? I often download movies. And if every 1 hour of that movie is about 1 GB, that movie is crystal clear on a 46" TV. And 500 kb/sec means 1.8 GB size every hour. So that should be more than enough for me. And i don't think any of the HD broadcasts on TV is nearly as well as those 1 GB/hour movies. So where am i doing a mistake?

So , are you saying for my purposes, 500 kb/s is too good or not good enough? I guess it is too big to work on but not good enough for TV broadcast. Is this what you mean?


I will start working on Premiere very hardly but before that i need some encoded video. Ok, i guess i decided on Avid DNxHD but i couldn't figure out how to download or buy it.


This is where i end up. http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/en_US/download/en423319 This is just a codec file. Not the editing tool.

Some thoughts:

1. You don't really need an intermediate codec unless you have to be super precise with your cuts. Unfortunately, your MP4 and MTS sources are already in a delivery format, so transcoding to an intermediate format is a needless step except for only the most demanding post-production workflows, not to mention it introduces generational losses. If all you are doing is making cuts on your video, I would avoid transcoding.

2. If you want to author a Bluray you will need an authoring package in addition to an NLE. Which one to recommend depends on if you want fancy menus or not.

3. Don't compare your video to Hollywood. Those encodes start with VERY high quality masters (think 6K and up, super high bitrates, perfectly exposed with very little noise, 4:4:4, and even raw) and the encodes get individually tweaked for each and every scene to produce the best, artifact free results. You, unfortunately, are starting with delivery quality content that is already highly compressed and is only 4:2:0. So, even though your Lumix content is 4K, the color channels are really only HD, and it is doubtful the camera OTF can resolve a full 1000 lines anyway before hitting the noise floor. If you could afford a Red or Arri camera, then you too could have pristine video and squish the bitrate to 500 kbps. However, the rest of us need all the bitrate we can get because our "masters" tend to be noisy which confuses encoders, and we take a one-size-fits-all approach to encoding.

Bottomline, if I were you, I would focus on a lossless workflow that allows you to cut and reassemble your footage without any re-encoding.

What would be a non delivery format and what sort of camera would be needed to shoot them? Excuse me butting in OP i have similar plans for the future so want to leanr as much as possible

[SameSelf]

What would be a non delivery format and what sort of camera would be needed to shoot them? Excuse me butting in OP i have similar plans for the future so want to leanr as much as possible

A non-delivery format is a codec that is meant for editing. That is, it is fairly light on compression but also is more faithful. For example, MP4/MTS typically uses AVCHD which means that the footage is highly compressed, 8-bit, and in a 4:2:0 colorspace. A typical intermediate codec is often 10-bit, 4:2:2, and maybe even 4:4:4. This has implications if you plan on doing any grading of you footage, for example. But bear in mind, I am talking about individuals who create their own content, not those who are ripping DVDs or BDs. To get a clearer idea though of what I am talking about when it comes to at least 4:2:0 versus 4:2:2, just click on the Chroma Subsampling I and II links in my signature.

As for potential intermediate codecs, I use ProRes 422 HQ mainly. DNxHD and DNxHR are also popular. I acquire my ProRes footage using an Atomos Ninja. Typically you need a fairly high end camcorder to capture to an intermediate codec in-camera.

HTH

[Anonymous]

What would be a non delivery format and what sort of camera would be needed to shoot them? Excuse me butting in OP i have similar plans for the future so want to leanr as much as possible

A non-delivery format is a codec that is meant for editing. That is, it is fairly light on compression but also is more faithful. For example, MP4/MTS typically uses AVCHD which means that the footage is highly compressed, 8-bit, and in a 4:2:0 colorspace. A typical intermediate codec is often 10-bit, 4:2:2, and maybe even 4:4:4. This has implications if you plan on doing any grading of you footage, for example. But bear in mind, I am talking about individuals who create their own content, not those who are ripping DVDs or BDs. To get a clearer idea though of what I am talking about when it comes to at least 4:2:0 versus 4:2:2, just click on the Chroma Subsampling I and II links in my signature.

As for potential intermediate codecs, I use ProRes 422 HQ mainly. DNxHD and DNxHR are also popular. I acquire my ProRes footage using an Atomos Ninja. Typically you need a fairly high end camcorder to capture to an intermediate codec in-camera.

HTH

Thanks. I have a Nikon D3200. It has MOV file format, with H.264/MPEG-4 encoding. When i shoot and it records to the memory card, is that the same as encoding? Save=encode?

OP i found this link http://www.masternewmedia.org/the-video-encoding-guide-codecs-formats-containers-and-s...ngs-explained/ it may help you

[SameSelf]

Your Nikon D3200 records to a delivery format. MOV is the container, not a codec, just like MP4 and MTS or M2TS. AVCHD (aka H.264/MPEG-4) is the codec which means the video is highly compressed, 8-bit, and 4:2:0 as mentioned above. Now if your Nikon has a clean HDMI-out (most DSLR's do), you could get an Atomos Ninja 2 for only about $300 and start recording in ProRes or DNxHD which are FullHD, high bitrate, 10-bit, and 4:2:2. Not to mention your recording length will only be limited by either ssd size or battery life, not the artificial 20 minutes cap the camera imposes.

But at the end of the day, it all depends on what you plan on doing with your recordings. If you are a content creator and, for example, grade your footage, you will want the highest quality masters you can muster. OTOH, if you just going to do simple edits, then an intermediate codec is just an additional step because you will ultimately need to transcode the intermediate file to a delivery format anyway for watching. Intermediate formats are for editing, not watching.