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  1. Member AlanHK's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by edDV
    Originally Posted by AlanHK
    Originally Posted by edDV
    It would be illegal for MS or any retailer to sell a US version to a EU location.
    And how do you know that?
    It isn't now.
    I assumed that was what this was all about.

    So, if MS can just sell the US version in Europe without EU commission opposition then why don't they? Maybe they can sell it at a premium.
    MS doesn't make much money from retail sales of Windows.
    Most OS sales are to OEMs, preinstalled on new PCs.

    And Microsoft has local subsidiaries and distributors in every country (except North Korea, I guess). They'd be really pissed if Seattle was selling direct. And there are issues of support and service that can't be done over the phone.

    Most people never update their OS (patches, yes, new OS, no), because the new OS are usually much more resource hungry and would run like crap on older hardware, and most people don't care what OS it is as long as it works when they turn it on. People run the original OS till the machine dies, in general.

    As for "sell it a a premium"? Why would anyone pay more to get IE, when they can DOWNLOAD IT FREE or get it any one of a dozen ways as I've said over and over above. Anyone who actually wants to install their own OS certainly does know how to do that. Firefox is 7 MB and a couple of clicks.

    MS tries to ask more for IE? MS is the one that started the "Browser War" by undercutting the paid version of Netscape by giving away IE.

    Anyway, nothing has happened in the real world. Microsoft will comply in the slowest and most obstructive way. The E edition isn't on sale anywhere. I've yet to hear of anyone actually getting this version on their PCs. MS will just dick around and pay fines if necessary for years and years until all the technical issues are completely obsolete.
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  2. Originally Posted by AlanHK
    Anyway, nothing has happened in the real world. Microsoft will comply in the slowest and most obstructive way.

    The E edition isn't on sale anywhere. I've yet to hear of anyone actually getting this version on their PCs.

    MS will just dick around and pay fines if necessary for years and years until all the technical issues are completely obsolete.

    I totally agree with the 1st and last sentence, as that's what MS has done in the past. However, I do doubt that was the motive this time. I think they are trying to play the EU commision for what they seem to be.

    The middle sentence well everyone could guess that. Win7 wont be released until Oct 22nd and the EU version was just announced. Obviously no one has either final versions yet

    I think since MS played this card, the EU commision will say that it will not accept it as a resolution. Then this will be a back and forth with laywers and Media grandstanding by both.

    Just think, Opera (payware) is sitting back laughin the butts off. You do know the main reason this is going on is because Opera (payware) wants desktop space too.
    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=opera+main+reason+for+EU&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
    tgpo famous MAC commercial, You be the judge?
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  3. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AlanHK
    Originally Posted by edDV
    Originally Posted by AlanHK
    Originally Posted by edDV
    It would be illegal for MS or any retailer to sell a US version to a EU location.
    And how do you know that?
    It isn't now.
    I assumed that was what this was all about.

    So, if MS can just sell the US version in Europe without EU commission opposition then why don't they? Maybe they can sell it at a premium.
    MS doesn't make much money from retail sales of Windows.
    Most OS sales are to OEMs, preinstalled on new PCs.
    They sell to upgraders and those building their own PC. Many Vista users will want the more efficient Win7. XP users will want the features.

    The major upgrade volume goes to business users that have been clinging to XP Pro because of legacy XP application issues. That is mostly solved by XP emulation in Win7 Premium or corp editions.


    Originally Posted by AlanHK
    And Microsoft has local subsidiaries and distributors in every country (except North Korea, I guess). They'd be really pissed if Seattle was selling direct. And there are issues of support and service that can't be done over the phone.
    I wasn't assuming direct sales. They would offer the retail and business chains both versions. Let the best version win in the market. Would the EU Commission object?


    Originally Posted by AlanHK
    Most people never update their OS (patches, yes, new OS, no), because the new OS are usually much more resource hungry and would run like crap on older hardware, and most people don't care what OS it is as long as it works when they turn it on. People run the original OS till the machine dies, in general.
    Except Win7 is more efficient and runs much better on Atom netbooks.


    Originally Posted by AlanHK
    As for "sell it a a premium"? Why would anyone pay more to get IE, when they can DOWNLOAD IT FREE or get it any one of a dozen ways as I've said over and over above. Anyone who actually wants to install their own OS certainly does know how to do that. Firefox is 7 MB and a couple of clicks.
    I think a "one button" netbook/laptop upgrade would command a small premium over the alternative but MS would be wise to offer both at the same price.


    Originally Posted by AlanHK
    MS tries to ask more for IE? MS is the one that started the "Browser War" by undercutting the paid version of Netscape by giving away IE.
    Same as including SCSI, SATA, USB and Ethernet drivers. Should they have charged extra?


    Originally Posted by AlanHK
    Anyway, nothing has happened in the real world. Microsoft will comply in the slowest and most obstructive way. The E edition isn't on sale anywhere. I've yet to hear of anyone actually getting this version on their PCs. MS will just dick around and pay fines if necessary for years and years until all the technical issues are completely obsolete.
    The technical issues are already obsolete by half a decade.
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  4. Member AlanHK's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by stiltman
    Just think, Opera (payware) is sitting back laughin the butts off. You do know the main reason this is going on is because Opera (payware) wants desktop space too.
    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=opera+main+reason+for+EU&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
    What? Opera has been free for years.
    (Except maybe some mobile phone versions.)
    I use it myself.

    Anyway, why should they "laugh", they haven't won anything. Microsoft will have some inconvenience, but will not share "their" market with anyone.
    Until Google end-runs the whole mess by releasing a branded Linux distro.
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  5. Member AlanHK's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by edDV
    They sell to upgraders and those building their own PC. Many Vista users will want the more efficient Win7. XP users will want the features.
    A niche market.


    Originally Posted by edDV
    Originally Posted by AlanHK
    And Microsoft has local subsidiaries and distributors in every country (except North Korea, I guess). They'd be really pissed if Seattle was selling direct. And there are issues of support and service that can't be done over the phone.
    I wasn't assuming direct sales. They would offer the retail and business chains both versions. Let the best version win in the market. Would the EU Commission object?
    To do that they MUST have a local physical presence and thus be subject to local laws.



    Originally Posted by edDV
    Originally Posted by AlanHK
    Most people never update their OS (patches, yes, new OS, no), because the new OS are usually much more resource hungry and would run like crap on older hardware, and most people don't care what OS it is as long as it works when they turn it on. People run the original OS till the machine dies, in general.
    Except Win7 is more efficient and runs much better on Atom netbooks.
    I'm not saying it's not better, I'm saying most users don't know or care.


    Originally Posted by edDV
    Originally Posted by AlanHK
    As for "sell it a a premium"? Why would anyone pay more to get IE, when they can DOWNLOAD IT FREE or get it any one of a dozen ways as I've said over and over above. Anyone who actually wants to install their own OS certainly does know how to do that. Firefox is 7 MB and a couple of clicks.
    I think a "one button" netbook/laptop upgrade would command a small premium over the alternative but MS would be wise to offer both at the same price.
    It wouldn't be "one button" to arrange to get this delivered from a foreign country. And I doubt they would offer the whole OS as a download. But they could easily offer IE itself as a (free) download. (Don't say "you need a browser to get it". See earlier posts on that issue.)


    Originally Posted by edDV
    Originally Posted by AlanHK
    MS tries to ask more for IE? MS is the one that started the "Browser War" by undercutting the paid version of Netscape by giving away IE.
    Same as including SCSI, SATA, USB and Ethernet drivers. Should they have charged extra?
    The point is that they destroyed the idea of the browser as something you pay for.
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  6. Member edDV's Avatar
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    This is getting cumbersome so I won't respond to the issues I think I won.

    Originally Posted by AlanHK
    Originally Posted by edDV
    Originally Posted by AlanHK
    And Microsoft has local subsidiaries and distributors in every country (except North Korea, I guess). They'd be really pissed if Seattle was selling direct. And there are issues of support and service that can't be done over the phone.
    I wasn't assuming direct sales. They would offer the retail and business chains both versions. Let the best version win in the market. Would the EU Commission object?
    To do that they MUST have a local physical presence and thus be subject to local laws.
    So pirate software is acceptable in the EU? Can't the local retailer play?


    Originally Posted by AlanHK
    Originally Posted by edDV
    Originally Posted by AlanHK
    As for "sell it a a premium"? Why would anyone pay more to get IE, when they can DOWNLOAD IT FREE or get it any one of a dozen ways as I've said over and over above. Anyone who actually wants to install their own OS certainly does know how to do that. Firefox is 7 MB and a couple of clicks.
    I think a "one button" netbook/laptop upgrade would command a small premium over the alternative but MS would be wise to offer both at the same price.
    It wouldn't be "one button" to arrange to get this delivered from a foreign country. And I doubt they would offer the whole OS as a download. But they could easily offer IE itself as a (free) download. (Don't say "you need a browser to get it". See earlier posts on that issue.)
    They could offer a "one button" upgrade by laptop or netbook model number. There aren't that many. It could be issued through the laptop/netbook maker.


    Originally Posted by AlanHK
    Originally Posted by edDV
    Originally Posted by AlanHK
    MS tries to ask more for IE? MS is the one that started the "Browser War" by undercutting the paid version of Netscape by giving away IE.
    Same as including SCSI, SATA, USB and Ethernet drivers. Should they have charged extra?
    The point is that they destroyed the idea of the browser as something you pay for.
    Just like Apple killed the Sony Walkman. It took "free" iTunes to make the iPod market.

    Just like Google nearly killed Yahoo.

    Just like OpenSource is trying to kill for pay apps? As an interested player, shouldn't the EU be seeing "Open Source" as a tax dodge? Shouldn't "Open Source" be taxed at market value?

    Sorry about that last one. I was trying to channel the EU commission.
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  7. Member AlanHK's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by edDV
    This is getting cumbersome so I won't respond to the issues I think I won.
    Neither will I.
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  8. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AlanHK
    Originally Posted by edDV
    This is getting cumbersome so I won't respond to the issues I think I won.
    Neither will I.
    But you didn't.
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  9. I think you are doing a great job keeping your cools.
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    IMO this suit is ridiculous. Netscape lost the browser war because it produced an inferior product. If IE was not somewhat better, it could not have won, even giving it away for free. MS Paint is free, but it is an inferior product compared to almost all other pay or free graphics programs.

    I used Netscape when I first signed up for Internet access in 1996. Netscape was provided for free by my ISP, so paying was for it not an issue.

    When IE 5 became available, I liked it better. IE loaded pages faster and the user interface was superior. I stopped using Netscape entirely when website compatibility was no longer an issue.
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  11. Microsoft offers EU 'browser ballot' compromise
    In a reversal on Friday, Microsoft said it is now open to allowing users in Europe to select competing browsers in Windows 7.

    Essentially, Microsoft is offering to put into Windows a way for consumers to easily install a rival to Internet Explorer. PC makers, as they can today, could still install a rival browser and could also disable Internet Explorer, if they choose.

    "Under our new proposal, among other things, European consumers who buy a new Windows PC with Internet Explorer set as their default browser would be shown a 'ballot screen' from which they could, if they wished, easily install competing browsers from the Web," Microsoft general counsel Brad Smith said in a statement
    http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10295334-56.html?tag=newsLeadStoriesArea.1
    tgpo famous MAC commercial, You be the judge?
    Originally Posted by jagabo
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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet
    IMO this suit is ridiculous. Netscape lost the browser war because it produced an inferior product. If IE was not somewhat better, it could not have won, even giving it away for free.
    Another explanation: IE won the browser war not because it was better than Netscape,
    but because sometimes most people prefer exactly what is worse.
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  13. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Google wants to turn their Chrome browser into an OS for Netbooks.

    Of course they must in Europe sell this without Google search ... No? Bing default?
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    As I understand it, the Chrome OS will be free. That would be very anti-competative, if it catches on. To prevent such an awful outcome, the EU must ban it now, before it is too late!
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  15. Google search however would not be claimed to be an integral, indivisible part of the OS.

    Benard Madoff got found out, when will Microsoft?
    Corned beef is now made to a higher standard than at any time in history.
    The electronic components of the power part adopted a lot of Rubycons.
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  16. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RabidDog
    Google search however would not be claimed to be an integral, indivisible part of the OS.

    Benard Madoff got found out, when will Microsoft?
    Just wait. Google has stated they are doing this for search. Nothing else.


    I still think Mercedes and BMW should be required to ship to the USA with an API, not a drivetrain or electronic accessories*.

    I'm trying to think of a UK example but I can't think of anything of significance imported from the UK. Other than your engineers and doctors.


    * No I don't support that other than as a grand retaliation threat. I'd go through with it if there was no back off.


    PS: I'm half Brit from the previous brain drain.
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  17. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Found it
    British Exports to U.S.

    Of the $53.4 billion in American imports from Britain in 2006, the following product categories had the highest values.

    Medicinal, dental & pharmaceutical preparations …US$8.2 billion (15.3% of Britain to U.S. exports, up 41.8% from 2005)
    New & used passenger cars … $5 billion (9.3%, down 12.5%)
    Other petroleum products … $3.6 billion (6.8%, up 22.7%)
    Crude oil … $2.9 billion (5.5%, down 37.2%)
    Civilian aircraft engines … $2.3 billion (4.4%, up 18%)
    Goods returned to U.S. then reimported … $2.1 billion (4%, down 0.9%)
    Collectibles (e.g. artwork, antiques, stamps) … $1.6 billion (2.9%, up 13.2%)
    Materials handling equipment … $1.24 billion (2.3%, up 36.1%)
    Precious metals other than gold … $1.237 billion (2.3%, up 36.1%)
    Alcoholic beverages other than wine … $1.2 billion (2.2%, up 11.8%)

    Read more: http://international-trade-leaders.suite101.com/article.cfm/top_uk_exports_imports#ixzz0MhaFhTFy

    More interesting are the growth export markets. Hair?

    Non-monetary gold … US$37.3 million (up 4,073% from 2005)
    Civilian aircraft (complete) … $55.9 million (up 739%)
    Tin … $15.3 million (up 353%)
    Newsprint … $12.4 million (up 193%)
    Miscellaneous (e.g. hair, waste materials) … $38.7 million (up 130%)

    Read more: http://international-trade-leaders.suite101.com/article.cfm/top_uk_exports_imports#ixzz0Mhb1cJPz
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    Originally Posted by RabidDog
    Google search however would not be claimed to be an integral, indivisible part of the OS.
    That's true, but as I understand it, the browser is the interface for the OS. I don't expect it will be possible to use the Chrome OS without the using the Chrome browser too.
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