Video8 tape shows video on the LCD screen, but not when digitizing

[SilverPT]

Hello everyone!

I've started small side business digitizing old tapes (VHS, VHS-C, MiniDV, Video8) last year. So far it's been going great.

Last week I had a new costumer deliver 21 Video8 tapes and I've found some problems with one of them. Whenever I try to digitize it, I get maybe a couple of frames of very distorted video and then it freezes. The sound continues to come out perfectly and the video also shows perfectly on the LCD screen of the handycam. I've cleaned the tape heads properly with cleaning swabs and alcohol 96%. I'm discarting handycam and cable problems because I've since digitize more Video8 tapes that showed no problems, I've tested this tape on another video8 handycam (same results) and I've also used the same cables to digitize MiniDV tapes from another costumer that also came out as expected.

The handycam in question is a Sony DCR-TRV238E PAL, the tape is a Sony Metal HG120 NTSC8.

Can someone help me?

[Hunk91]

Hi !
On your capture device set it to NTSC or PAL60.
May be this tape was recorded on a NTSC handycam and your handycam can read it by using PAL60.

Please have a nice day

Best regards

[usually_quiet]

Hello everyone!

I've started small side business digitizing old tapes (VHS, VHS-C, MiniDV, Video8) last year. So far it's been going great.

Last week I had a new costumer deliver 21 Video8 tapes and I've found some problems with one of them. Whenever I try to digitize it, I get maybe a couple of frames of very distorted video and then it freezes. The sound continues to come out perfectly and the video also shows perfectly on the LCD screen of the handycam. I've cleaned the tape heads properly with cleaning swabs and alcohol 96%. I'm discarting handycam and cable problems because I've since digitize more Video8 tapes that showed no problems, I've tested this tape on another video8 handycam (same results) and I've also used the same cables to digitize MiniDV tapes from another costumer that also came out as expected.

The handycam in question is a Sony DCR-TRV238E PAL, the tape is a Sony Metal HG120 NTSC8.

Can someone help me?

When an NTSC tape is played by a PAL deck, the resulting signal usually has NTSC resolution and refresh rate with a PAL color subcarrier at 4.43mhz. This is called PAL 60. PAL displays/TVs have been able to process this kind of signal for a long time but not all capture devices can handle a PAL 60 signal. What are you using to digitize the tape?

[SilverPT]

Hi !
On your capture device set it to NTSC or PAL60.
May be this tape was recorded on a NTSC handycam and your handycam can read it by using PAL60.

Please have a nice day

Best regards

The costumer specifically said that all the tapes were recorded on a PAL handycam when he delivered the tapes.

When an NTSC tape is played by a PAL deck, the resulting signal usually has NTSC resolution and refresh rate with a PAL color subcarrier at 4.43mhz. This is called PAL 60. PAL displays/TVs have been able to process this kind of signal for a long time but not all capture devices can handle a PAL 60 signal. What are you using to digitize the tape?

I'm using Elgato Video Capture. I already reinstalled the software, changed USB ports, but the problem persists. It's weird enough that the LCD screen of the handycam shows video but doesn't transmite it to the software on the computer, but even weirder to the point that I can't even start recording on the software, despite getting crystal clear sound.

[Hunk91]

@SilverPT , you know, may be sometimes memory tricks you and you are sure of somethig which tends to be wrong. May be your customer is sure that the tape is PAL but may be it was recorded with an NTSC handycam. Have you tried or do you have the possibility with your elgato capture card to try to capture it in PAL60? or even NTSC-M, NTSC-J or NTSC443?

What is the result?

Some good informations here : https://www.cavsi.com/questionsanswers/what-is-the-difference-between-ntsc-358-and-ntsc-443/

[usually_quiet]

The product page for the Elgato Video Capture device includes the following information:

Technical Specifications
Elgato Video Capture automatically detects NTSC, SECAM, PAL and PAL/60 video formats for worldwide compatibility.

Video resolution: 640×480 (4:3) or 640×360 (16:9)
Video format Mac Software: H.264 at 1.4 MBit/sec or MPEG-4 at 2.4 MBit/se
Video format PC Software: H.264 at 1.4 MBit/se
Audio: AAC, 48kHZ, 128 kBit/sec

This tells me that the device itself is capable of processing a PAL 60 signal. However, the software Elgato bundled with the device rather than the device itself is responsible for detecting the type of signal and choosing the resolution, bitrate, H.264 (or MPEG4) video, and AAC audio and container file type used for the digitized video file.

Are you using the bundled software or something else?

[SilverPT]

@SilverPT , you know, may be sometimes memory tricks you and you are sure of somethig which tends to be wrong. May be your customer is sure that the tape is PAL but may be it was recorded with an NTSC handycam. Have you tried or do you have the possibility with your elgato capture card to try to capture it in PAL60? or even NTSC-M, NTSC-J or NTSC443?

What is the result?

Some good informations here : https://www.cavsi.com/questionsanswers/what-is-the-difference-between-ntsc-358-and-ntsc-443/

I can't change any settings on the software as it's something very basic, but I can change the settings on the handycam itself. There's a NTSC PB option, in which I can select "ON PAL TV" and "NTSC 4.43". I've switched between both and the result it's the same: video and sound on the LCD screen, no video on the computer software.

The product page for the Elgato Video Capture device includes the following information:

Technical Specifications
Elgato Video Capture automatically detects NTSC, SECAM, PAL and PAL/60 video formats for worldwide compatibility.

Video resolution: 640×480 (4:3) or 640×360 (16:9)
Video format Mac Software: H.264 at 1.4 MBit/sec or MPEG-4 at 2.4 MBit/se
Video format PC Software: H.264 at 1.4 MBit/se
Audio: AAC, 48kHZ, 128 kBit/sec

This tells me that the device itself is capable of processing a PAL 60 signal. However, the software Elgato bundled with the device rather than the device itself is responsible for detecting the type of signal and choosing the resolution, bitrate, H.264 (or MPEG4) video, and AAC audio and container file type used for the digitized video file.

Are you using the bundled software or something else?

I've always used the bundled software.

[Hunk91]

@SilverPT you should try this : https://help.elgato.com/hc/en-us/articles/360027957192-Windows-Bad-video-quality-with-...ers-PAL-SECAM-

The first European VCRs and camcorders could originally only play tapes recorded in European TV standards, i.e. PAL and/or SECAM. Later, new VCRs and camcorders able to play North-American tapes in NTSC standard came on the European market. In order to play these tapes, these VCRs and camcorders do in fact convert the NTSC source into PAL60 format (PAL 60 Hz).


When NTSC tapes are used, video captured by Elgato Video Capture may sometimes have a bad quality. This problem is due to difficulty in directly detecting the TV standard used. In order to solve this problem, please use the following procedure:

Quit the Video Capture software.
Start the Windows Explorer and enter the following path in the address bar: %appdata%\Elgato\VideoCapture

*
Edit the Settings.xml file with the Windows Notepad.
Replace <TVFormat>Auto</TVFormat> with <TVFormat>PAL60</TVFormat>
Save the Settings.xml file.
Launch the Video Capture software, and the TV standard is now forced to the PAL60 value.

Notes:

This change needs to be done only once, the modified value will stay stored in the file.
If one day you want to record tapes in a different TV standard (PAL, SECAM, NTSC), you will need to modify the file again and replace the PAL60 value by Auto or another value. Authorized values are Auto, PAL, NTSC, SECAM and PAL60.

Before doing this, do a backup of the Settings.xmll file!

[dellsam34]

I would try to get some practice and experience before sacrificing other people's precious memories.

[SilverPT]

@SilverPT you should try this : https://help.elgato.com/hc/en-us/articles/360027957192-Windows-Bad-video-quality-with-...ers-PAL-SECAM-

The first European VCRs and camcorders could originally only play tapes recorded in European TV standards, i.e. PAL and/or SECAM. Later, new VCRs and camcorders able to play North-American tapes in NTSC standard came on the European market. In order to play these tapes, these VCRs and camcorders do in fact convert the NTSC source into PAL60 format (PAL 60 Hz).


When NTSC tapes are used, video captured by Elgato Video Capture may sometimes have a bad quality. This problem is due to difficulty in directly detecting the TV standard used. In order to solve this problem, please use the following procedure:

Quit the Video Capture software.
Start the Windows Explorer and enter the following path in the address bar: %appdata%\Elgato\VideoCapture

*
Edit the Settings.xml file with the Windows Notepad.
Replace <TVFormat>Auto</TVFormat> with <TVFormat>PAL60</TVFormat>
Save the Settings.xml file.
Launch the Video Capture software, and the TV standard is now forced to the PAL60 value.

Notes:

This change needs to be done only once, the modified value will stay stored in the file.
If one day you want to record tapes in a different TV standard (PAL, SECAM, NTSC), you will need to modify the file again and replace the PAL60 value by Auto or another value. Authorized values are Auto, PAL, NTSC, SECAM and PAL60.

Before doing this, do a backup of the Settings.xmll file!

Thank you Hunk91. Changing the tvformat value to PAL60 didn't fixed anything. The only value that changed something was NTSC, but it loses some quality/colour.

I would try to get some practice and experience before sacrificing other people's precious memories.

I would try to be less of a condescending prick and actually try to help. I've digitize more than 500 tapes, including my own. If you're not actually trying to help, don't waste other people's time.

[dellsam34]

I've digitize more than 500 tapes,

And so does Legacy Box. My rule is if you don't have the right gear and knowledge leave people's precious moments alone, Period. I'm not shy to speak out about this mal practices whether from an individual or from a company like Legacy Box. Tel me how you feel when you take your car to a mechanic and he tells you I don't know what's wrong with your car, leave it here I'll go online and look it up and get back to you.

[Hunk91]

Thank you SilverPT for your feedback.

Just another question. Have you tried to plug the handycam with the tape and play it back to a television ? Do you see something ?

If yes, you can try to plug it on a VCR, then plug the output of the VCR to the El gato capture card and see if it works. Or at least make a copy of the video8 on a VHS then capturing the VHS. Not the best way because you will loose some détails and color informations, but you will be able to provide a digital copy in the end.

Best regards

[Alwyn]

@Dellsham, what's the difference with that mechanic ringing up his mate, unbeknownst to you, being told how to fix it and then doing it? You wouldn't know. As for precious memories, I have never, in 35 tears of using video tapes, had a tape break. Never. Nor one that suddenly died on me, and believe you me, I have some bad VHS recordings.

@SilverPT, I'm not an expert like Dellsham, but it seems to me you have a good recording (video is good on the camera screen) and you have only tried with Elgato's capture software. I suggest you try different capture software. AmarecTV is pretty straightforward and doesn't install, per se. You run the exe file from the unzipped standalone folder. You will also need to install a lossless codec for AmarecTV to capture to. I'd suggest Lagarith (~40gb per hour). After capture, you can open the AVI in your editor for conversion to MP4.

A good guide for using AmarecTV is here:

https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/12986-amarectv-virtualdub-inserts.html#post86872

One addition: to set the "Video Standard" eg PAL 60, NTSC 433, on the Device tab (tab/Graph 2) click on Device Setting>video decoder tab, then choose the video standard you want to try from the dropdown.

[oln]

Just fyi what it says on the tape doesn't really matter, it's what's recorded on it. Only difference with a NTSC and PAL branded tape really is the branding on the outside. You can record NTSC on a PAL tape and vice versa no problem. From what I remember the image on the lcd screen will look a little different when playing a NTSC tape compared to a PAL one due to the different resolution but it's been a while so not entirely sure. The TBC/DNR function also doesn't work on NTSC playback. Also second the suggestion of using something else than the bundled capture software.

If it actually is a NTSC tape, using NTSC 4.33 is preferable to PAL60/NTSC on PAL TV if you have the option as the former involves less conversion.

As a different alternative if you have issues with the elgato, the digital8 camcorders can output digitized video from analog tapes in DV format over the firewire port which might be an easier route. It's something you want to have available for doing miniDV tapes and digital8 tapes in any case as that gives a direct copy of the digital video from those types of tape (rather than it being converted to analog and back) and is also the most practical usually.