Proc amps with and w/o s-video

[colt4523]

Does it matter if the proc amp/detailer has s-video. I noticed that several of the models I have looked at do not have it. From my own experience, the picture from composite and s-video is like night and day to me. Can someone recommend a relatively inexpensive proc amp that has s-video. I was looking at the AVT-8710 which also has a full frame tbc but I would to look at some other options.
thanks

[lordsmurf]

Elite Video BVP-4
SignVideo Proc Amp

[gshelley61]

Sima Pro Color Corrector is fairly decent if you are going really low dollar... not in the same league as the BVP-4 or the SignVideo Proc Amp, though.

[colt4523]

Would you guys say that the sima color corrector is better then the proc amp functions found in the AVT-8710?

[sanlyn]

I have the same question regarding choices of a proc amp. I've been using the AVT-8710 TBC for over a year and am very pleased with it -- has a pristine image thru composite and S-Video out. It has a few basic controls (Bright, Contrast, Sharp, Tint, etc.). I've used them often and extensively on discolored/faded VHS tapes. They do a decent job without any noise that I can see.

The only problem with the 8710 is that it has no bonafide black-level adjustment. You can use the contrast control, which works well, but as with most Contrast controls it both darkens blacks and brightens whites. By the time you heighten Contrast to make blacks really black, the brights are burned out and the capture is jittery due to overload.

For black level and extreme color adjustments I bought an EliteVideo BVP4 from B&H in NY at $140 under MSRP. I have yet to use its most extreme functions, as my VHS tapes are in good to at least fair condition. The BVP4 had 2 major problems: (a) After 5 months it developed internal component problems (smearing, ghosting, etc.). After 4 weeks of haggling and a 6 week wait, it was serviced and returned OK. 7 months later, it misbehaved again. I'm tired of fiddling with it. (b) The biggest problem was the BVP4's black level. It turned EVERY dark color black, resulting in big gluey pools of black goo that destroyed all detail. You can tune it down in various ways, but the blacks were never really clean and other colors looked somewhat grimy. I finally stopped using it and had to render my captures with the 0-level TMPGenc filter -- it worked, but it took forever, and I don't believe in much software processing anyway.

I tried SIMA gear, but it did more harm than good. So I'm looking at the SignVideo PA-100 proc amp with its black level control. $450 is a chunk to pay for one control, but it has other features I want. I've seen a few words in favor of this product in this forum, but no detail about how well its black-level control works. Anyone have any details about their experience with the SignVideo amp? The PA-200 is similar, but has dual sections that I don't need to pay for.

[gshelley61]

I have a PA-200, which is simply two PA-100's in a single box. It's a really great unit. Not only does it have transparent, super high quality image pass through, but the black level/luminance meter is very useful (prevents you from exceeding signal standards). It has plenty of correction power for most situations.

I use mine with a DR-1000 Image Enhancer for sharpening. For laserdiscs, I run composite all the way through to my DVD recorder, starting with a Vidicraft Detailer III. I put the sharpening unit first (my VCR has a built in full frame TBC, otherwise a TBC would come first).

[sanlyn]

Thanx, gshelley61. I'll give the SignVideo PA-100 a try (same as PA-200, but only 1 processor section). I read where SignVideo service is less hassle-free than EliteVideo, and hopefully the PA-100 build is better.

I'm capturing VHS to a PC, so all my TBC work is external. If the PA-100 works out, the DR-1000 is next (if the wife doesn't shoot me first). Thanx for the advice, I was seriously burned at $560 on the BVP-4, guess I'll save it for projects needing really drastic work, where there's so much damage that the BVP-4's deficits won't matter.

In reply to colt4523: I tried more expensive TBC's. The AVT-8710 gave me mucho bang for the bucks ($180 at b&h in NY) and a crisp image. I thought the DataVideo units do a little more, but the 8710 was cleaner. IMHO, a combo TBC/Enhancer doesn't perform the work of separate units; I'd take the AVT-8710 for starters and then spring for a good proc amp. Also -- the SIMA units are Ok for cheapies, but they're not full-frame TBC's, I'd stay with the cheaper SIMA "stabilizers" if you need it for really bent-up VHS tapes. I didn't think SIMA's video corrections were as clean as the AVT (also called TVOne) or the DataVideo units.

[gshelley61]

Don't forget that black level for analog NTSC sources (VHS, laserdisc, etc.) is 7.5 IRE and therefore must be adjusted to 0 IRE for a proper digital video encode, whether it is DV AVI or DVD compliant MPEG2. Some DVD recorders, and DV conversion devices like the DAC-100 and Canopus ADVC-100, have a black level setting switch to automatically compensate for 7.5 IRE sources.

Digital camcorders (MiniDV, Digital8, the new DVD-RW camcorders, etc.) already record at 0 IRE, so no black level adjustment should be necessary except to tweak for less than perfect lighting.

On my PA-200, the 0 IRE level seems to occur just before the black level CLIP LED lights up... "in between" the 5 IRE LED (which would be fully lit) and the CLIP LED. You'll see what I mean when you get a PA-100. I find that the automatic black level adjustment switches on some DVD recorders (and probably on the DV converters) work great, except that they are not adjustable. Almost every source is different, and their black levels are all over the place (not set perfectly at 7.5 IRE). That's why a variable black level control is so handy.

[sanlyn]

Thanx much, I'm keeping notes on this. My capture card is an ATI AIW 9600XT. Works well, and I get nice recordings off cable tv (DVD quality!). The problem is from my VHS VCR. I'm feeding tapes thru an AVT 8710, then S-video out ---> BVP-4 ---> AIW. The 8710 gives a nice conversion from composite in to S-Video out. Aside from the BVP-4, the 8710 is giving me a very sharp and stable picture, but it's always a tad bright and the MPEG2 encoding (and AVI encoding as well thru VirtualDub) is killing the blacks and whites. Everything else seems OK except for needing a slight color boost if I don't use the BVP-4. On its own, the BVP-4 introduces too much grime, no matter how I handle it. I think I just have a lemon there, but I've heard others have similar trouble after a while. The BVP-4 had IRE adjust, but trying to clean up the blacks more than 15-20% just shuts down the black restore.

My 150+ commercial VHS tapes are in good shape. The other 200+ tapes recorded at EP are very sharp, made on high-grade VCR's. So I don't need extreme adjustments a la BVP-4. I tried other capture cards and VCR's, but the ATI gave me the most for the $$, my Panasonic VCR puts out a VERY sharp pic with great color, and the level problem was still there anyway.

Looking forward to the PA-100 and will try to update this post later with results. Will take a coupla weeks -- I'm paying cash for this, lest the wife go into a rage if she sees a $450 bill on the old Amex. Women. They just DON'T understand. They're into furniture.

[pfh]

Would you guys say that the sima color corrector is better then the proc amp functions found in the AVT-8710?

I'm using one now but can relate to sanlyn as I've had the Sign Video stuff on my wish list for a while.
Thanks to sanlyn, Lordsmurf and Gshelley I'm further convinced they are the way to go if you got the $.
The Sima unit is ok but lacks the full amp processing of the Sign Video stuff and lacks TBC functions as well.
Some day when my cash flow is better I know what my next "toy" purchase will be!

[gshelley61]

Thanx much, I'm keeping notes on this. My capture card is an ATI AIW 9600XT. Works well, and I get nice recordings off cable tv (DVD quality!). The problem is from my VHS VCR. I'm feeding tapes thru an AVT 8710, then S-video out ---> BVP-4 ---> AIW. The 8710 gives a nice conversion from composite in to S-Video out. Aside from the BVP-4, the 8710 is giving me a very sharp and stable picture, but it's always a tad bright and the MPEG2 encoding (and AVI encoding as well thru VirtualDub) is killing the blacks and whites. Everything else seems OK except for needing a slight color boost if I don't use the BVP-4. On its own, the BVP-4 introduces too much grime, no matter how I handle it. I think I just have a lemon there, but I've heard others have similar trouble after a while. The BVP-4 had IRE adjust, but trying to clean up the blacks more than 15-20% just shuts down the black restore.

My 150+ commercial VHS tapes are in good shape. The other 200+ tapes recorded at EP are very sharp, made on high-grade VCR's. So I don't need extreme adjustments a la BVP-4. I tried other capture cards and VCR's, but the ATI gave me the most for the $$, my Panasonic VCR puts out a VERY sharp pic with great color, and the level problem was still there anyway.

Looking forward to the PA-100 and will try to update this post later with results. Will take a coupla weeks -- I'm paying cash for this, lest the wife go into a rage if she sees a $450 bill on the old Amex. Women. They just DON'T understand. They're into furniture.

For simple VHS capture, you might try encoding directly to MPEG2 with a standalone DVD recorder. That's what I do. I think you would be very pleased with the results you can get, especially if you are going to tweak the image first with SignVideo gear. The Pioneer units have built-in video input picture controls including black level, white level (luma), detail, noise reduction, color, and hue. The color and hue controls are very mild, however. They also have automatic gain (luma level) control that can be turned on or off. A very nice feature is MPEG2 encoding preview, which allows you to have a look at exactly what the encoded video will look like before you ever record to a disc.

For overall image and MPEG2 encoding quality, the JVC unit is better.. but does not have any input picture controls. However, the JVC has the best video noise reduction filter I've seen so far, which is especially helpful for VHS sources. I still prefer my JVC over my Pioneer, but both are very good machines.

[sanlyn]

I'm capturing to a PC because of all the editing I do, straight to MPEG2. Then there's the problem of my Panny stopping 2 or 3 times during a 2-hour SP tape (but not on SLP). Wish I could find someone willing to fix it, just long enough for me to transfer my tapes. Then it'll be all-DVD from there.

I tried the JVC 9911 and 101US. I realize many people like these machines, but JVC's noise reduction, even with R3 turned off, reached the point of throwing out the baby with the bath water. I found its relatively soft image to be a disappointment (many people prefer it, though, I grant). It was useless for EP, at which the Panny and my aging Sony 565HF both excel. I've seen some good DVD recorders, but until the price gets below $1K for a really good one I'm archiving tapes the hard way. Rather than another VCR, I'd sink the cash into the PA-100 for now. After these 600 hours of captures are finished (in my old age), VHS/SVHS will be a thing of the past for me.

Thanks to this forum and many like gshelly61, I've learned much and am getting some great transfers thru my PC, to the point where the VHS image is vastly improved. The last hurdle is the levels problem. Hopefully I'll be able to learn enough to contribute to the group rather just ask questions. I liked the control I was getting with the BVP-4, but I think gshelly61 and others have persuaded me that the PA-100 will be better.

[MaxBlack]

Don't forget that black level for analog NTSC sources (VHS, laserdisc, etc.) is 7.5 IRE and therefore must be adjusted to 0 IRE for a proper digital video encode, whether it is DV AVI or DVD compliant MPEG2. Some DVD recorders, and DV conversion devices like the DAC-100 and Canopus ADVC-100, have a black level setting switch to automatically compensate for 7.5 IRE sources.

Digital camcorders (MiniDV, Digital8, the new DVD-RW camcorders, etc.) already record at 0 IRE, so no black level adjustment should be necessary except to tweak for less than perfect lighting.

On my PA-200, the 0 IRE level seems to occur just before the black level CLIP LED lights up... "in between" the 5 IRE LED (which would be fully lit) and the CLIP LED. You'll see what I mean when you get a PA-100. I find that the automatic black level adjustment switches on some DVD recorders (and probably on the DV converters) work great, except that they are not adjustable. Almost every source is different, and their black levels are all over the place (not set perfectly at 7.5 IRE). That's why a variable black level control is so handy.

Good stuff in this old thread--I hope gshelley61 you are still around cuz I'm confused about black level and need advice.

I want to capture composite-out from my Laserdisc player to my Canopus MVR-1000 MPEG2 capture card, but your comments suggest I have a mismatch (7.5 from the LD player and the MVR caps at 0 IRE). Seems a big limitation of the MVR-1000 (which I confirmed at the Canopus website) but now, how to compensate? What piece of gear would I need to acquire to marry the LD player to the card, and turn-down the black?

I also have a Digital8 camcorder w/pass-thru i.e. it converts analog-in to digital (firewire) out on-the-fly, I could use it to record my LDs and convert to MPEG2 using the card's encoder, or a software encoder. Is the LD out also a mismatch for the camcorder??

[gshelley61]

Properly adjusting (or "stretching") the black level of a 7.5 IRE NTSC analog source down to 0 IRE for digital conversion can be done several ways. A standalone proc amp (or color corrector) that has separate brightness (black level, setup) and contrast (luma, video gain, white level) adjustments can work. You would reduce the brightness to deepen the blacks, then adjust the contrast up somewhat to compensate. Some TBC's have proc amp controls that can be used for this purpose, too.

The Canopus ADVC-100 and ADVC-110... and the Datavideo DAC-100 are bi-directional analog to DV converters that have black level compensation circuits built-in. You simply select 7.5 IRE as the source black level and they correct the black level to 0 IRE for you while providing a DV stream output.

There are several entry level DVD recorders that also have input video black level compensation built-in. The Toshiba D-R4; the Pioneer DVR-210, DVR-220, DVR-225, DVR-310, or DVR-320; the Panasonic DMR-E50, DMR-E55, DMR-E60, DMR-E65, DMR-ES10, and the DMR-ES20. For the Toshiba, recording input black level should be at "Standard" for 7.5 IRE sources. The Pioneer units properly label their input video black level selections as 0 IRE and 7.5 IRE, so you would pick 7.5 IRE for laserdiscs. The Pioneer units also have additional input video picture adjustments to further tweak the image. The Panasonic machines should have their input video black level set to "Darker" for 7.5 IRE sources.

For laserdisc conversion, using a standalone DVD recorder with built-in black level compensation is hard to beat. It's how I do all my laserdisc conversions now. I transfer the DVD-Video files into my PC for LD side joining by doing frame accurate cutting with Womble, then author a final DVD.

[MaxBlack]

...For laserdisc conversion, using a standalone DVD recorder with built-in black level compensation is hard to beat. It's how I do all my laserdisc conversions now...

Thanks, but I'm very surprised to see this from you--I might've guessed you would be using a video processor of some sort to tweak your LDs as you convert them?

OK, if I don't want to buy a DVD recorder, what approach would you take if you had my equipment above? I guess I expected you might say "buy thus and such video processing gizmo cuz you're going to want it anyway to clean-up those LDs".

Thanks again, you are contributing mightily here!!!

p.s. I have used TyTool (includes FAE and DVDauthor) to join-and-author, recently acquired VideoReDo so will probably switch. I have Womble somewhere but haven't used it in a while. Gearing-up to try some serious conversions and want to do it right...

[gshelley61]

Depending on how good the picture on the LD is, I do still use image enhancing tools for some of them... that is, a Detailer and/or an external Proc Amp.

You could try capturing to AVI on your computer, then digitally re-mapping the black level when you encode to MPEG2. I think most of the encoders like TMPGEnc can do that.

[MaxBlack]

Thanks, I will give that a try.

If you have a favorite video processor(s) to recommend, by all means let us know. EDIT: Sorry, suffered slight "senior moment" here! Enough info on yr stuff is here already!!!

[sanlyn]

On 12/0302005 gshelley61 wrote:
"There are several entry level DVD recorders that also have input video black level compensation built-in. The Toshiba D-R4; the Pioneer DVR-210, DVR-220, DVR-225, DVR-310, or DVR-320; the Panasonic DMR-E50, DMR-E55, DMR-E60, DMR-E65, DMR-ES10, and the DMR-ES20. For the Toshiba, recording input black level should be at "Standard" for 7.5 IRE sources. The Pioneer units properly label their input video black level selections as 0 IRE and 7.5 IRE, so you would pick 7.5 IRE for laserdiscs. The Pioneer units also have additional input video picture adjustments to further tweak the image. The Panasonic machines should have their input video black level set to "Darker" for 7.5 IRE sources."

You are quite correct on these settings, at least in my experience. I'm using both the Panasonic ES20 and Toshiba XS34 (they each have their advantages. I find the XS34 to be better, overall). What I've learned is, test first. Some of my VHS tapes have really low black levels (The retail "Flying Down to Rio" has almost offensively dark blacks, but glaring brights as well. I found that the XS34 did OK on this tape at the "Standard" black level, but on the ES20 the "darker" level gave blacks that made one of my DVD player-only units start stuttering. Conclusion: as I suspected early on, the overall image balance on the ES20 is a tad too dark, on the XS34 a tad too light. After further use I found that making corrections with the black-level settings works better than the "brighness" and "contrast" controls.

Another little lesson learned: The Toshiba let me record a copy-protected broadcast onto its hard drive -- but it refused to let me burn it to a disc for transfer to my PC. So I recorded the re-broadcast onto DVD-RAM successfully -- but my TEMPGenc wouldn't copy from DVD-RAM to the PC. Finally, I played the DVD-RAM thru my Toshiba, into my external TBC, and thence into the ES20 onto DVD-RW. Voila! I then copied from DVD-RW to my PC, then authored a new DVD. But I spent over an hour adjusting the black levels between the Toshiba's output and the ES20's input --ultimately, I had to playback with the Toshiba's output set for lighter black levels, and the ES20's black-levels also raised. The result looked perfectly natural on my final DVD.

Not so with a subsequent broadcast ("Tank Girl"), which turned out too light in the final version. Once again, to coin an old addage: test first, then test again, then author!

I'll say one thing: I sure didn't have these problems with with my VCR's.