Not converting Interlaced footage to Progressive if viewing on BD player?

[clashradio]

I realize I may only need to capture at 8-bit, esp if AVISynth works best at 8-bit. 10-bit is just out of habit. Delivery format would be a BD to be able to watch in any set-top player.

When I run that newest file in Mediainfo, it does say lossless. So, I'm capturing lossless. Or are you saying render the AVISynth file lossless?

[manono]

I'm saying at some point you'll have to switch to 8-bit. I think regular AviSynth only supports 8-bit. To keep it 10-bit you'll have to use one of the newer variants. I had to change your sample to 8-bit to be able to see what it needed.

But yes, if there are intermediate files being created along the way to your Blu-Ray then, yes, they should be lossless. Me, I go through 5 or more lossless AVIs when working on my projects.

[clashradio]

Should I re-capture that clip using 8-bit to make it easier to do the IVTC test?

When rendering that many AVI's, even at lossless you don't see any generation loss?

[manono]

It's lossless so, no, no loss. No color space conversions, either. YV12 all the way (except for an initial capture if from VHS tape, then YUY2). I use the Lagarith lossless AVI codec.

As for whether or not to cap 8-bit, that's up to you as a case can be made for keeping it 10-bit for awhile, especially for minimizing posterization (aka banding). jagabo would know more than I about that.

[_Al_]

just read the whole thread,
If loading interlaced avi into Vegas (except DVavi) you have to tell Vegas it is interlaced (right click a clip, properties, media and choose field order) , Vegas has no way of knowing otherwise. Again except DVavi, that is considered to be interlaced.

If starting from scratch I'd go with Vapoursynth instead of Avisynth. It works natively with 10 bit (or higher), setting up QTGMC is very easy (or none), you can work 64bit along the way, no more 32bit aps etc. There is a portable pack available now FATPACK (includes all you need and Python as well), you can just download it and use it. But lots of guys still uses Avisynth and post valuable scripts for you, as you can see , just fyi, your choice.

[jagabo]

Restored to 25 fps. Yadif+SRestore on the left, QTGMC+SRestore on the right.

LWLibavVideoSource("YUV 10-bit 720x486 LFF.avi", format="YUY2") 
AssumeBFF()
Crop(0,2,-0,-0) # ConvertToYV12 requires mod 4 for interlaced video
ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true)

y = Yadif(mode=1).SRestore()
q = QTGMC().SRestore()

StackHorizontal(y, q)

[clashradio]

Wow, my clip using Yadif doesn't look anything like that. But the Yadif plug-in for Vegas doesn't have the SRestore option either. How did you figure out it is PAL? The disc is Japanese. Are you saying it's sourced from a PAL videotape converted to NTSC?

Also, if it's now at 25fps, will that play in a BD if I render to 25?

[jagabo]

SRestore is only available in AviSynth and derivatives.

[manono]

Wow, my clip using Yadif doesn't look anything like that. But the Yadif plug-in for Vegas doesn't have the SRestore option either. How did you figure out it is PAL? The disc is Japanese. Are you saying it's sourced from a PAL videotape converted to NTSC?

Perhaps you missed it earlier:

Your video sample is field-blended from a PAL source. Only AviSynth can unblend it to its original 25fps.

It's not hard. There are several tests one can do. To figure out it's field-blended one only need to put on a bobber (QTGMC or Yadif(Mode=1)). Then you look at the bobbed frames and you can easily see the blends/ghosts/double images. Once you see them it's almost guaranteed (almost guaranteed) to be because of a bad NTSC conversion from a PAL source. And once you make sure (using other tests if necessary), just follow your bobber with SRestore. By default it'll spit out 25fps.

[jagabo]

How did you figure out it is PAL?

When you perform a simple bob you will see that there are many fields that look like double exposures. This usually comes from PAL/NTSC conversions.

The disc is Japanese. Are you saying it's sourced from a PAL videotape converted to NTSC?

Yes.

Also, if it's now at 25fps, will that play in a BD if I render to 25?

I believe BD supports 25 fps but I believe it needs to be encoded interlaced.

[clashradio]

[Perhaps you missed it earlier:

Your video sample is field-blended from a PAL source. Only AviSynth can unblend it to its original 25fps.

I read that, but since I messed up when I rendered that 1-second clip I figured that's why it was showing PAL to NTSC.

Even though the original source is PAL, can the frame rate be set to 29.97 after the QTGMC magic?

[jagabo]

Even though the original source is PAL, can the frame rate be set to 29.97 after the QTGMC magic?

You can do whatever you want -- hard 3:2:3:2:2 pulldown to go directly from 25p to 29.97i. A better choice would be to upscale to 720p and slow the video to 24 fps (like the original film) and slow the audio too.

[clashradio]

Even though the original source is PAL, can the frame rate be set to 29.97 after the QTGMC magic?

You can do whatever you want -- hard 3:2:3:2:2 pulldown to go directly from 25p to 29.97i. A better choice would be to upscale to 720p and slow the video to 24 fps (like the original film) and slow the audio too.

Actually I did plan on up scaling to 720p @23.976fps, but I didn't want to mention that yet. Didn't want to make anyone mad lol.

I thought the original source was PAL video? or are you saying the footage on this LD was shot on film @24fps, transferred to PAL videotape @25, then transferred to NTSC digital tape @29.97?

[jagabo]

are you saying the footage on this LD was shot on film @24fps, transferred to PAL videotape @25, then transferred to NTSC digital tape @29.97?

Yes. Though it's a little hard to say for sure with such a short clip. A longer clip with a nice medium speed panning shot would be more definitive.

[manono]

I read that, but since I messed up when I rendered that 1-second clip I figured that's why it was showing PAL to NTSC.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant the more recent sample, the one right before my post you quoted.

Even though the original source is PAL, can the frame rate be set to 29.97 after the QTGMC magic?

Didn't you say you were making a Blu-Ray? I'd do it as jagabo suggested - slow the video to 23.976fps (or 24fps) after QTGMC/SRestore and slow the audio to match. I think you said that was also your intent.

[jagabo]

By the way, slowing the video is as simple as adding AssumeFPS(24) to your script. Here's a sample slowed to 24 fps, upscaled to 1280x720:

LWLibavVideoSource("YUV 10-bit 720x486 LFF.avi", format="YUY2") 
AssumeBFF()
Crop(8,2,-8,-4) # crop to 704x480, ITU capture 4:3 frame size
ColorYUV(cont_y=30) # adjust levels
ColorMatrix(mode="rec.601->rec.709") # prepare colors for upscale
ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true)
QTGMC(preset="slow", EZDenoise=1.0, DenoiseMC=true) # mild noise reduction
SRestore() # back to 25 fps
nnedi3_rpow2(2, cshift="Spline36Resize", fwidth=960, fheight=720) # upscale to 960x720
aWarpSharp(depth=10) # smooth and sharpen edges
AddBorders(160,0,160,0) # pillarbox to 1280x720
AssumeFPS(24) # slow to 24 fps

[clashradio]

jagabo: since it's hard to tell the original frame rate due to the short clip, how long of a clip would you need? (and thanks for that new 24fps sample).

manono: at this point I still have to download and learn AVISynth, but I got confused about the 25fps converted to 23.976 process, because the frame rate on the disc is 29.97 so that's why I was thinking I needed to convert it to 29.97.

[jagabo]

A smooth, medium speed, panning shot of a few seconds duration would be good for determining the frame rate.

Another option for blu-ray would be to convert to 50 fps by duplicating each frame. You would use ChangeFPS(50) instead of AssumeFPS(24) to do that. That wouldn't require changing the audio.

[clashradio]

Here is a new clip @ 8-bit, w/audio.

When capturing in Adobe, the option says 8-bit uncompressed (not lossless). But when I run that file in MediaInfo it says lossless. How do I know if the raw captured .AVI file is uncompressed or lossless?

[jagabo]

Uncompressed is lossless by its very nature -- ie, what comes out of the file is exactly the same as what went in. Lossless codecs compress without losing any data. The output of the codec is exactly the same as the input (assuming no colorspace changes). Much the same way as a program that comes out of a ZIP archive is exactly the same as the program that went in.

[jagabo]

Here is a new clip @ 8-bit, w/audio.

25 fps looks right. After QTGMC().SRestore() I didn't see any duplicate frames or obvious missing frames.

[clashradio]

Here is a new clip @ 8-bit, w/audio.

25 fps looks right. After QTGMC().SRestore() I didn't see any duplicate frames or obvious missing frames.

Do you think it's possible that it was filmed or video recorded at 25fps and then transferred to NTSC video tape, and not what I originally thought of at 24fps, then converted to PAL 25fps, then converted to NTSC 29.97?

[jagabo]

Do you think it's possible that it was filmed or video recorded at 25fps and then transferred to NTSC video tape

I think that's very unlikely.

[clashradio]

If dealing with NTSC, when you use AVISynth for film-source footage that has 3:2 pull-down you perform IVTC to get back to 24fps (23.97 in the video world). But if you have video-sourced footage shot at 29.97fps and you QTGMC, what frame rate do you end up with?

[jagabo]

if you have video-sourced footage shot at 29.97fps and you QTGMC, what frame rate do you end up with?

59.94 fps by default. 29.97 fps if you use the option(s) for that. 29.97 fps interlaced video has 59.94 different fields (half pictures, every other scan line of the frame) per second, each taken at a different point in time, 1/59.94 seconds apart. QTGMC normally converts each field into a full frame.