Convert VHS videos to digital - budget $1000

[flyboynm]

I have a friend that wants to convert about 2000 VHS videos over the coming years. They have a good enough system for the processing but they need the following:

VHS player - Tapes are a mix of PAL, NTSC and SECAM that they have taken over the last 40 years or so.
Video capture device

They prefer to use a USB device to capture the video. They do not have any open slots in the system for internal cards. They also prefer to only have to buy 1 VHS player. The friend prefers new equipment but if it is in very good condition may be willing to buy refurbished equipment.

If you had to do the above, have a budget of a maximum of $1000, what would you buy to do it? What software would you use?

Any suggestions on WHERE to find the VCR if you suggest one that is not new?

Personally, I would try to track down a Panasonic AG-W1 and I-o Bit GV-USB2 and go that route. Would you consider the same route?

[orsetto]

About all anyone can do is wish your friend "good luck with that". They're walking into this party fifteen years after the bartender finished law school: the heyday of "new" (or even credibly "mint") VHS>digital equipment options goes that far back. Some of the best involved a (now obsolete) PC card slot. New is no longer an option in terms of the usual recommended or preferred VCRs, either, and buying used is a minefield I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

Throw in needing to capture a mix of PAL, SECAM and NTSC while being located in USA, multiplied by 2000 tapes, and I think I'd probably stuff all the tapes in my garage, move far far away, and pretend I never heard of "VHS". Honestly not trying to be snarky: I've been banging away at my own transfer of 3000+ VHS/Beta for the past fifteen years, and long ago lost enthusiasm. Its a slog, the results are always somewhat disappointing because our modern TVs don't display VHS sources worth a damn: and this is just with "easy" NTSC. If I had a mix including PAL (or fates forbid, SECAM), I'd have lost my mind before the Facebook IPO. 2000 tapes is a LOT to do: believe me, even if they're retired with around-the-clock dedication this project will crush their spirit after just a couple hundred. You'd be amazed how many "priceless memories" and beloved videos suddenly become candidates for the trash bin when weighed against the effort of digitizing properly.

You can pretty much click any random thread here regarding this topic, posted within the past decade, and they will all contain the same old advice, with minor variations on the theme. Four or five helpful souls will turn up here eventually with links to them or perhaps a minor update, but the recommended gear and workflow stalled by 2005 and little has really changed since then (other than evolving computer technology rendering some good capture devices obsolete, and the best VCRs, TBCs, etc being that much older/used up).

There is a bit more activity on this topic over at LordSmurf's transfer-centric DigitalFAQ site, usually with more recent updates on the state of the equipment market (and PAL/SECAM sidebars) than we see here.

[lingyi]

As orsetto said, video digitalfaq.com and read http://www.digitalfaq.com/editorials/digital-video/professional-analog-workflow.htm, then contact lordsmurf as he has/may be willing to sell you the necessary equipment, VCR, TBC, capture device. Note that ~$1000 will be for one NTSC setup. For hundreds of NTSC tapes, you'll probably need multiple VCRs due to wear and tear and tape anomalies.

Also, read here for why as multi-system VCR may not be a good choice: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/392960-Is-the-quality-output-of-these-vcrs-lowered...-multi-support

[Markfx]

About all anyone can do is wish your friend "good luck with that". They're walking into this party fifteen years after the bartender finished law school: the heyday of "new" (or even credibly "mint") VHS>digital equipment options goes that far back. Some of the best involved a (now obsolete) PC card slot. New is no longer an option in terms of the usual recommended or preferred VCRs, either, and buying used is a minefield I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

Throw in needing to capture a mix of PAL, SECAM and NTSC while being located in USA, multiplied by 2000 tapes, and I think I'd probably stuff all the tapes in my garage, move far far away, and pretend I never heard of "VHS". Honestly not trying to be snarky: I've been banging away at my own transfer of 3000+ VHS/Beta for the past fifteen years, and long ago lost enthusiasm. Its a slog, the results are always somewhat disappointing because our modern TVs don't display VHS sources worth a damn: and this is just with "easy" NTSC. If I had a mix including PAL (or fates forbid, SECAM), I'd have lost my mind before the Facebook IPO. 2000 tapes is a LOT to do: believe me, even if they're retired with around-the-clock dedication this project will crush their spirit after just a couple hundred. You'd be amazed how many "priceless memories" and beloved videos suddenly become candidates for the trash bin when weighed against the effort of digitizing properly.

You can pretty much click any random thread here regarding this topic, posted within the past decade, and they will all contain the same old advice, with minor variations on the theme. Four or five helpful souls will turn up here eventually with links to them or perhaps a minor update, but the recommended gear and workflow stalled by 2005 and little has really changed since then (other than evolving computer technology rendering some good capture devices obsolete, and the best VCRs, TBCs, etc being that much older/used up).

There is a bit more activity on this topic over at LordSmurf's transfer-centric DigitalFAQ site, usually with more recent updates on the state of the equipment market (and PAL/SECAM sidebars) than we see here.

Props, that is spot on evaluation and advice!!!

[flyboynm]

This is what he wants to do. A lot of the video is of when he worked for the UN with Refugees and he wants to compile the video for editing purposes.

[johnmeyer]

Gosh, you really didn't get any advice, but instead just a lot of attitude and snark.

Here are some ideas, designed to be helpful.

First of all, 2,000 tapes is an astronomically massive job. There are 2,000 working hours in 50-week year, so if each tape only contains one hour of video, you are looking at doing this eight hours a day, five days a week, for at least a year. If they instead average 2, 4, or 6 hours a tape, then the job gets even bigger.

So, the first thing you need to concentrate on is how to get the job done. While I always want to get the best possible quality, and I'm sure you do too, rather than worry about whether you have some ultimate quality, you need to think about how to design your setup so you can actually get through this massive number of tapes.

Thus, my first piece of advice is to consider getting two, three, four, or five different VCRs and have them run in parallel. This also will help you get around the fact that, with this many tapes, a single VCR is not likely to make it to the finish line.

My second piece of advice, which also focuses on getting the job done, is to consider using VHS to DVD combo units. These were all over the place about ten years ago. Most of them did a serviceable job, but their big advantage was the simplicity of the transfer: you put a tape in one side and a blank DVD in the other, push a button, and then come back when the tape is finished and repeat the process. This worked especially well for 2-hour tapes because a single-layer DVD can, with some quality compromise, hold two hours of video.

I like DVDs because they are about the only digital format I know of that is likely to last longer than you.

If you don't want to use the combo recorder method (they do involve a quality compromise), then you could get a Hauppauge (or similar) capture device. Get a VCR with S-Video output and make sure your capture device accepts that. Make sure the VCR is set to output Hi-Fi audio, when available. Capture with that, and make sure to use a reasonably high quality bitrate and format. I can't give advice on formats and bitrate until you know what device you're going to use.

Finally, as you are going through this work, you can flag any tapes that are really, really special and for which you want to capture the highest quality possible. For that, you can peruse this site (or many others) to get ideas for what sort of deck and capture method to use. The most important thing in getting ultimate quality is a time base corrector (TBC). Having said that, you will find it almost impossible to get any useful advice on this forum about which TBC to use. If you look at posts from the past five years, almost all of the responses berate the OP for getting an inferior TBC and, when the OP asks which one to get, they get told that there were only a few TBCs that really worked well, and those units are no longer available or, if you happen to find one, it will probably have to be completely re-built.

The fact is there are VCRs that have built-in TBCs that do help for some kinds of time base problems, and they don't cost a fortune. I use a JVC SR-VS30U which also has a miniDV player. It can be very temperamental, so I don't recommend this unit for what you are doing, but having said that, the TBC in it works really well.

Oh yes, you should look around to see if you can find anyone in your area who is good at servicing and tuning up VCRs. Most big cities still have such people.

I hope this helps.

[Markfx]

This is what he wants to do. A lot of the video is of when he worked for the UN with Refugees and he wants to compile the video for editing purposes.

Then it will be better to view the tapes and log what portions of each tape is important and only capture that section. Bulk capturing is simply unnecessary. Get a Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle or similar. BlackMagic offers a free version of DaVinci Resolve for editing. USB 3.0 is mandatory, so hopefully that is already available. Likewise, external storage needs to be massive and fast to accommodate the files.

Capturing to DVD is not a good option when editing is desired...

[LMotlow]

LOL! I knew the DV and BM crowd would show up. These guys haven't made a clean lossless VHS transfer in their lives.
Good luck, flyboynm. They'll help you turn 2000 tapes into expensive digital trash using afterthoughts from the Pentium III era.

Capturing to DVD is not a good option when editing is desired...

Gotta give Markfx credit for getting that part right.

Maybe flyboynm should start here:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/video.htm

[johnmeyer]

Then it will be better to view the tapes and log what portions of each tape is important and only capture that section. Bulk capturing is simply unnecessary.

Great point. Totally agree. For that, you won't want to use my DVD recorder idea. Actually, if you want to go down that road, see if you can find decks that can be controlled via RS232 or similar interface. With a little work you should be able to set in/out points and have the deck start and stop at the sections you want to capture.

Capturing to DVD is not a good option when editing is desired...

Yes, that is correct, although it is pretty easy to do lossless cuts-only editing of DVD files using VideoRedo, Womble, ffmpeg, or many other tools.

[lingyi]

Couple of points about purchasing VCRs:

Be very wary of anything off eBay or Craigslist, especially anything "untested", "as is" or "working". These says nothing or worse as to the quality of the machine. Also, stay away from machines used in a professional environment unless you know their maintenance/repair history.

As for new machines (which are extremely rare), new doesn't mean they'll be in good working order. Even just sitting in the box or on a shelf, the capacitors can dry out and in need of replacement. Read this thread about recapping the AG1980, which most are in need of at this point: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vcr-repair/9529-repair-ag1980.html

Edit: TGrant Photo has a good reputation for selling quality refurbished VCRs. https://www.tgrantphoto.com/sales/index.php/categories/vcr-player-recorder-playback/page-3/ They have AG1980s and a couple of pro machines in stock. But note that the prices are $700+, which may seem high, but gives you an idea of what a known quality machine goes for. Add another $200-$300 for an external TBC, plus another $75-100+ for a quality capture device, and you're at that $1000 price point for one NTSC setup.

[lingyi]

Then it will be better to view the tapes and log what portions of each tape is important and only capture that section. Bulk capturing is simply unnecessary.

Great point. Totally agree. For that, you won't want to use my DVD recorder idea. Actually, if you want to go down that road, see if you can find decks that can be controlled via RS232 or similar interface. With a little work you should be able to set in/out points and have the deck start and stop at the sections you want to capture.

Capturing to DVD is not a good option when editing is desired...

Yes, that is correct, although it is pretty easy to do lossless cuts-only editing of DVD files using VideoRedo, Womble, ffmpeg, or many other tools.

The catch with a machine with RS232 or other remote interface is that it will be likely be a professional model that plays SP only.

[Cornucopia]

Panny or JVC (multispeed) SVHS broadcast decks often had rs232 and are to be recommended not just for their rs232 but for decent heads, better caliber electronics, nr, and line tbc capability.

but the thing is, no matter HOW you look at it $1000 total budget for this scope of work is downright quixotic, and I believe that was what orsetto was going on about, not just blasting snark.

remember the tripartite constraint: Fast - Cheap - Good, pick 2. And in this case, due to the ever increasing chance of electro-mechanical issues involved with playback & capture of a defunct format, even going slow will still negatively affect the cheapness or goodness.

Considering joeblow consumer transfer services usually minimally charge $10/2hrtape, that would be $20,000 just for the transfer, no cleanup, no editing (and that blindly assumes nothing untoward happens to the masters), possibly even stuck with dvds. Even at a 75% discount, that is still >$5k. That is much closer to what this job is going to cost in equipment (and backup equipment, which WILL come into play on a job of this size) to do it justice. That's also assuming that the workers' time is free, which it never is one way or another.

I'm not saying don't do it, I'm saying "get realistic". Sounds like a project worthy of GoFundMe.

Scott

[lingyi]

To minimize the cost of the project, the OP's friend could sell off the VCR(s) as that part of the project is done (i.e. do all SECAM tapes, first, then sell it and buy a PAL machine, rinse and repeat for NTSC) and recoup a good portion of the cost (as long as they're in still good working condition). After everything is done, sell the external TBC and capture device.

[victoriabears]

Strewth, I think I must have had 500, I feel your pain. My 1st question is, how many are secam? A universal vcr like the AG1 will not give such good playback as a dedicated player for the 3 formats, is the machine they were recorded on still around?

Computer capture is an art, I never mastered it,but modern computers might be better suited, I was using a dell 9100 with 8gb memory, never found computer capture reliable or better quality than a dvd recorder, I used the following capture system: VCR/TBC/DVD recorder and now some 5 years later are converting the dvd's O created to MKV/MP4.

I would ask myself long and hard how many of these tapes you REALLY want to convert.

S-VHS VCR like a JVC or Panasonic through a Time Base Corrector, TBC 100 or this little tool , I see it is discontinued-wonder if a replacement is around?
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/276891-REG/AV_Toolbox_AVT_8710_AVT_8710_Multi_S...Time_Base.html

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JVC-HR-S6600-Svhs-Video-Recorder-with-Remote-Control/264289....c100010.m2109





It would seem a lot of the gear I used has been discontinued, making me feel the market is dying.

Finally

[victoriabears]

This IS cheap, might suit your project, worth a few hundred $ to assess. I would suggest to seller YOU arrange a courier to pick it up and ship to you. I bought a lot of equipment from the UK, THE JOY OF THIS WOULD BE IT WOULD OUTPUT WHATEVER BROADCAST SYSTEM YOU WANT BUT THE QUALITY WOULD NOT BE THE BEST BUT MIGHT BE ACCEPTABLE. ESPECIALLY IF YOU USE A TBC.


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Very-Rare-Samsung-SV-300W-World-Wide-VHS-Video-Recorder-VCR....c100009.m1982

[orsetto]

My tone was not intended to be "snarky", rather to express "exhausted realism based on experience".

2000 tapes is a staggering pile of tapes: we're talking about a massive project here. Very few have pulled it off by glibly throwing together a rack of VHD<>DVD combo units: those that did managed it prior to 2008, when new combo units were available in decent selection at decent prices. Such projects also shunned editing: running a rack of combo units round the clock will do the job efficiently, but the result is (at best) a 1:1 exact dupe of the tapes (warts, gaps, glitches and all). For plain digital archiving projects this might work, but if any significant amount of editing is contemplated, forget it. Editing requires ripping each DVD to a PC (adds more time), then editing the resulting MPEG files (not always as precise as you'd like, adds more time, can't really enhance MPEG captures in software without artifacting). The final edited MPEGs eat up hard drive space unnecessarily, unless you burn them back to standard playable DVD discs (again, adds more time). Also, rips of VHS>DVD files to a PC sometimes don't work out well: depends on the software used and the signal recorded on the dvds. VHS sourced MPEGs sometimes play acceptably off the DVD, but get shot thru with wonky artifacts when ripped to a PC hard drive.

Any large scale VHS conversion project involving edits and/or compiling clips (by subject, date, whatever) is best served by direct PC capture in a format other than DVD/MPEG. Hardware recommendations are all over the map: the USB dongle that one person claims is stellar will be drubbed as utter crap by three other people. So much depends on individual PC+OS performance, capture software employed, how stable is the signal from the VCR and other input electronics, etc, ad nauseum. Unless you buy a complete pre-vetted turnkey system from someone on DigitalFAQ, anything your friend pulls together will take a long period of testing to get optimized. Just finding premium VCRs in perfect condition, or finding service for defective examples, can be very very difficult.

If this is a UN project documenting refugees, a case should be made for one or more UN agencies to fund initial capture by a firm specialized in this type of mass conversion. It is wildly unrealistic to expect one man, no matter how well-intentioned, to do the entire thing as a personal pet project. Once the raw digitized files are delivered to your friend, he can concentrate exclusively on the editing phase, with a fresh mind not bogged down and exhausted from the tedium of capture. Original and edited files can be archived as primary backups, then he can convert the edited versions to whatever distribution format works best for the target viewers/audience/researchers, via direct hardware playback or web hosting.

[victoriabears]

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Vintage-Rare-Panasonic-AG-W1-hi-fi-VHS-VCR-multisystem-worldwi...kAAOSwslJcaEIM


This is why I say the UK one is cheap, this is virtually the same as the Samsung.

[lingyi]

Beware of the black AVT-8710. According to lordsmurf, most if not all black models are inferior to the original green models (different chipset).

[lingyi]

This IS cheap, might suit your project, worth a few hundred $ to assess. I would suggest to seller YOU arrange a courier to pick it up and ship to you. I bought a lot of equipment from the UK, THE JOY OF THIS WOULD BE IT WOULD OUTPUT WHATEVER BROADCAST SYSTEM YOU WANT BUT THE QUALITY WOULD NOT BE THE BEST BUT MIGHT BE ACCEPTABLE. ESPECIALLY IF YOU USE A TBC.


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Very-Rare-Samsung-SV-300W-World-Wide-VHS-Video-Recorder-VCR....c100009.m1982

I posted this link earlier:https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/392960-Is-the-quality-output-of-these-vcrs-lowered...-multi-support

It's a good discussion of why multi-format VCRs aren't the best choice for video capture.

[jwillis84]

1. Do proof of concepts and tweak upwards to maximize gains
2. Buy a used AG2560 (US), or AG1970 (US) [or EU equivalent] to start, only seek an SVHS vcr if you have SVHS tapes
3. Buy a used HDD equipped DVR, EH55 (US) EH59 (EU) preferrably one which you can remove the HDD and copy the recordings to a PC direct
4. Never plug any equipment direct into a wall outlet, only into Battery backed UPS, monitor the voltage
5. Force air cool the cabinets of the VCR and DVR with laptop coolers or desk fans, make sure the fans in the HDD and DVR cabinets are always spinning
5. Playback tapes and record onto the DVR hard drive, when half full remove the hard drive and put in a USB 3.0 dock and copy to a PC hard drive, return the hard drive to the recorder, delete titles or reformat the hard drive in the recorder, rinse & repeat

There are many (tweaks) that can be applied. PC card capture requires a special kind of person to make work, and its difficult to pull off consistently.

The equipment you can find used these days will to a larger degree dictate what you can do before the project looses momentum.

In the down time (while transfers are underway) continue to try and obtain "better" or equivalent equipment and try other arrangements. Without a long term committment you will be limited by your own experience as to whether the results are adequate. Uploading clips to various forums will give some context, but the critics will be pulling from their own experiences which may far exceed your goals.

With your budget, you might be able to set up 2-3 "stations" to do simultaneous transfers. 2000 tapes at 6 hours each would be 18000 / 3 stations = 6000 hrs / 7 days * 12 hrs = 71 weeks full time, so probably 71 ~ 142 weeks or about 3 years

To get it all will take a lot of gear as things wearout, To get it done faster will take a lot of gear

Waiting will not make things better.. and require an even more careful triage of what tapes to convert and what tapes to not bother converting. Some tapes will of course have to be set aside if in poor condition for disposition to be decided later.

18000 hours on DVD media would be about 9000 DVDs or around 36 photo albums with 250 per album, some aluminum storage cases can hold 1000, which would be 9 very large suit cases, or around 43200 GB ~ 42 TB or about 5 eight TB hard drives, (make it 10 so you have a backup of everything) (or 15 with an additional copy offsite)

25 GB BD-R would bring the 1000 BD-R per storage case down to around 2 large suit cases, which if they last for 50-100 years would cross several generations of improved storage technology, should someone wish to similarly densify or convert the media in the future.. hopefully using better automation techniques.. but going PC-HDD first would allow decorating with "metadata" and "tape logging" for indexing purposes.. even with self-driving cars, A.I. image recognition is going to be on a shallow upward slope for a long time

[johnmeyer]

Great post, jwillis.

[jwillis84]

To add to that:

Orsetto is completely in the correct, the majority of good gear, or obtainable gear has long passed. All that is left is a wasteland of components. The users PC and limitations will shutdown the project before it begins if the 'tail is allowed to wag the dog'.

Choices are slim, but I think its still barely possible to finish such a project if started right now.

The budget is unrealistic for conversion, but the skills obtained in the ramp up could help set expectations.

'Adequate' is the key here as the budget is no where near 'highest quality possible' for that $20,000 does not sound out of proportion. But also realistically tossing around terms like 'Post processing' and 'Post editing' can mean a lot of things.. to a person without a lot of expectations.. clip editing without recompression or rendering is (probable) for which simple tools like VideoRedo are almost overkill.. but certainly, low cost, easy to learn and reliable.

TBC's are getting rare and high priced, multiples would be unrealistic to obtain.. but HDD/DVRs were designed to handle SD interlaced video.. with their filters and stabilizers they are the next best thing and can still be obtained.. more so.. than TBCs.

USB dongles and USB capture devices were really optimized for short duration Camcorder and Mobile Cam video (1 to 1.5 hr video clips) and are terrible at throwing off heat.. they do not run cool and tend to burn themselves out. And this above and beyond the PC driver issues and slow throughput. And of the USB devices, some do not offer a raw capture mode.. at some point a compressed and audio to video sync'ed version will be higher priority over 'Pristine Raw Uncompressed' capture for archive. Doing that on the PC will take an enternity even with multiple GPUs and Multiple cores.. it is simply PCs are not good at compression and general software is not as efficient as a chip based solution. PC compression cards are expensive and buggy.

A USB 3.0 or USB 2.0 hard drive dock however does seem to fit the OPs request, and is realistic when used to offload compressed video either to a second PC formatted HDD connected to the same dock (a duo dock) or direct to an internal hard drive. Further using USB docks there are standalone cloner docks which can make the PC almost redundant and drive up the efficiencies in getting the video from the recorder format and into a PC format for long term replication and storage. (One could) even pop the external PC HDD into a NAS for long term replication and service to a PC edit station, local file sharing or DLNA streaming.. if thats where your going.. the options quickly bloom outwards.

note: This is not a solution for restoration or archiving precious Theater Plays, conversations with World leaders or your Grandparents. There are much "better" options still available for shorter duration (not 18000 hrs) of recordings for which you might spend 18 hrs for each hour of tape time restoring and conserving. This is only one option.

[flyboynm]

What do you think of this method?

Panasonic AG-W1 VCR to play tapes (they are insistent upon having only 1 VCR to use for all tapes) daisy chain output into the video 1 input on a DMR-ES10 to it can do TBC and have its output go into a I-o DATA GV-USB2 video capture device?

Their PC is pretty new: i7-8700T, 16GB of RAM. Application they think they want to use is NCH Software - Debut Professional but I might be able to talk them into something else. Suggestions?

They told me that they really only care if the can watch the videos on their computer and take screenshots from the video for a book they are writing.

[victoriabears]

That samsung VCR that was /is for sale in the UK Ebay is identical to the Panasonic will work on USA Voltages and your idea is fine , longevity of any vcr to get through all those tapes is my question but gently and carefully would do it, may be buy 2 vcr's to start?

That UK one is gone, el surprise but here are a few

The Panasonic ones looks more beat up

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_osacat=0&_odkw=samsun+worldwide+vcr&_from=R40&_trks...e+vcr&_sacat=0

[flyboynm]

thank you! I am going to suggest this idea to them and see what they have to say about it.

[victoriabears]

By the way you do not need a remote with these machines, they are basic players, the one from germany is what I would get, as I said before organise our own courier from this end if the seller is reluctant.

[lordsmurf]

Orsetto is completely in the correct, the majority of good gear, or obtainable gear has long passed.
TBC's are getting rare and high priced, multiples would be unrealistic to obtain..
USB dongles and USB capture devices were really optimized for short duration Camcorder and Mobile Cam video (1 to 1.5 hr video clips) and are terrible at throwing off heat.. they do not run cool and tend to burn themselves out.

I don't agree with the quoted statements.
Non-quoted, yes.

Panasonic AG-W1 VCR to play tapes

The AG-W1/2/3 are just consumer VHS decks. Quality is subpar, especially for NTSC. To make matters worse, I've not seen a good condition deck in probably decade now. (Never trust eBay sellers, most are clueless about what "working" and "tested" means.) Samsung had some clones (even more available the Panasonics cloned from), but same situation on condition. These deck are 15-20 years old now. Pro decks lasted that long. But again, these really were not pro decks.

I keep my Samsung only because of the SECAM.