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  1. Member
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    I'm entertaining the possiblity of adding a DR-M100S to my capture chain (possibly replacing or suplimenting my ATI AIW). Before I seriously consider this, I need some extra insight:

    1. A lot of people claim the JVC filters soften the image too much. Here is what I am interested in knowing: with NO image enhancer (such as the dr-1000), will my captures be less detailed than my AIW?

    2. IRE. I swear to you that I will never understand this. Do I, or do I not need to adjust the black level on captures done with this particular recorder? (Let me clarify - I will only be doing home video VHS captures from a couple different consumer camcorders).

    Thanks guys. I do realize that in a lot of threads these issues have been raised, but I find the information conflicting. I've also been hunting for screen caps comparing some stand alone cards to dvd recorders...I take it there hasn't been anything like this yet?
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  2. I do not own a JVC but am interested in the new DR-M101S coming out soon which can record to DL dvd+r. I have gone over the manual for the M100S pretty thoroughly but the manuals do lack some detail.

    The JVC does not appear to have any input ( record ) or output ( playback ) adjustments for IRE as do both a Pioneer 531 and Panasonic ES10 I own.

    I have been doing a large family project transferring VHS and VHS-C tapes from a myriad of cameras to dvd. In the process, I acquired a JVC video corrector model JX-C7 for less than $30. With it I can correct color, enhance sharpness, and adjust IRE. Please note, it cannot change IRE from the front panel. I bought a service manual and can do it internally. Of the three functions it can perform, I probably use the color correction feature the most, enhancement less, and IRE adjust the least.

    As you mentioned, I found no way to shut off or reduce the JVC filtering function. It would be interesting to test the unit with sharpness enhanced slightly by the JX-C7 to see if that can counteract or allow the M100S filters effect to be lessened. I also have a Vidicraft Detailer III to try. The Vidicraft is more sophistcated at enhancement. It cost about the same as the JX-C7 used.
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  3. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by anitract
    I'm entertaining the possiblity of adding a DR-M100S to my capture chain (possibly replacing or suplimenting my ATI AIW). Before I seriously consider this, I need some extra insight:

    1. A lot of people claim the JVC filters soften the image too much. Here is what I am interested in knowing: with NO image enhancer (such as the dr-1000), will my captures be less detailed than my AIW?

    2. IRE. I swear to you that I will never understand this. Do I, or do I not need to adjust the black level on captures done with this particular recorder? (Let me clarify - I will only be doing home video VHS captures from a couple different consumer camcorders).

    Thanks guys. I do realize that in a lot of threads these issues have been raised, but I find the information conflicting. I've also been hunting for screen caps comparing some stand alone cards to dvd recorders...I take it there hasn't been anything like this yet?
    #1 No. The ATI is noisier, so any "loss of detail" is perceived, not actual. I did some tests years ago with the Apex (same LSI chipset) against the ATI, and they were virtually indistinguishable, save a little less noise on the Apex. Clarity was pretty much identical. The JVC DR-M100S actually may have slightly better encoding than the DR-M10S did.

    #2 IRE is fine. The reason you'll never fully understand this is because everything is "wrong". Devices don't follow the rules, between tv sets, DVD players, DVD recorders, capture cards, LCDs, etc. They sort of do whatever they want, from company to company, device to device. The JVC is as it should be. People who complain about the JVC are almost always Panasonic owners because their Panasonic crap was too dark (luma is all screwed up).

    I've been using JVC DVD recorders since early 2004.
    Awesome machines.
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  4. 1. For VHS, the small amount of softening the JVC's video noise reduction filters cause will not be noticeable at all. You're dealing with a low resolution, low bandwidth source. The chroma noise reduction and grain/streak suppression in the JVC are the best and most effective I've seen, resulting in nice and smooth MPEG2 video with little or no encoding artifacts.

    2. If you want your resulting DVD's to have the correct 0 IRE black level, you will need something to adjust input black level with. I've found that sources vary all over the map... analog 7.5 IRE sources like VHS are rarely right on that figure, so a good proc amp like the SignVideo PA-100 can be a big help here. It can correct the source video black level to about 0 IRE prior to capturing, while providing a corresponding luma boost (necessary when black level is reduced). This keeps the contrast where it should be. The PA-100 has a black level and luma level meter built in so you don't exceed the 0 IRE and 100 IRE limits, too.

    Recorders that have input video black level compensation settings for 7.5 IRE sources do this automatically, but only the Pioneer models have additional black level adjustments to fine tune the image.
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    LS, so your Apex was a pretty close match to the AIW. That's interesting...

    In terms of picture quality (color, detail, everything), would you say that the jvc recorders you've used have been quite a bit better than apex and/or ati encodes?

    What it comes down to for me is this: if the picture quality is noticibly better on the JVC recorder than the AIW card, I will get it.
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    gshelly61, I have a BVP-4, which can adjust the black level, but unfortunately (as you know) does not have a meter to gauge when the levels are set to spec.

    As was recommended to me, I want to try experimenting with Vegas (to see how close to spec I come in w/ the programs analysis). Then again, as LS pointed out, perhaps the levels don't matter all that much in the end. At this point, I just want to get going again on my project.
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  7. The BVP-4 will get the job done, too. You will need to develop an eye for what the blacks (and contrast levels) are supposed to look like. One way to do this is to study some commercially produced DVD's to compare. For example, the black letterbox bars on a widescreen movie are at 0 IRE.

    Another way to monitor your peak luma and black levels when adjusting the BVP-4 is to acquire an old school Vidicraft Proc Amp and use it's luma meter. They are much less expensive than a new SignVideo proc amp... you can probably get one from eBay for $35-$60. Run the composite output of your BVP-4 into the Vidicraft Proc Amp and the meter will be active - you will be able to set your BVP-4 output levels within 0-100 IRE easily. Run the s-video output of your BVP-4 to your JVC recorder for capturing to DVD.

    You can definitely use Vegas to check black level and peak luma levels, too. Make a couple of test recordings to DVD-RW and then examine the resulting video file in Vegas using the waveform monitor. You will be able to tell right away if your DVD recording is at 0 IRE black level or not.
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  8. IRE levels can be seen easily with an oscilloscope too as shown on this link,

    https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=239205&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=150

    starting about 1/3 down the page.

    P.S. If these videos are not for yourself and the ATI card can simulate different degrees of filtering, you might want to present the people you are doing this for with some sample videos and let them provide you with some input.
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    I never thought of using a vidicraft as an IRE level monitor. Interesting idea! I'll give Vegas a test, & if I don't like it, I might just take your suggestion.

    Why can't all DVD players simply detect whether a disk is a 0 or 7 IRE black level and adjust accordingly? It doesn't seem like too difficult of a feature to incorporate.

    Adjusting the IRE level just seems like a hassle when some equipment adjusts for it and some doesn't. So even if I do do it, hardware x might end up making it too dark in the end.
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  10. DVD players and recorders are all over the map on this IRE video input level and output level setup issue. For example, Lite-On DVD recorders have no input video black level adjustment and need a 0 IRE source to produce a proper DVD recording, but do add 7.5 IRE setup to the video output (composite and s-video). JVC units likewise have no input video black level adjustment and also need a 0 IRE source to produce a proper DVD recording, but do not add 7.5 IRE setup to the video output - they are at 0 IRE for composite/s-video out (other machines sometimes call this "enhanced" black level output in North America). Some DVD recorders like units from Pioneer, Panasonic, and the newer Toshiba models have both input and output black level adjustments.

    I run my Toshiba XS34 DVD recorder's video output with no setup (0 IRE, or "enhanced") and have my project monitor adjusted accordingly. This gives me a more accurate representation of what my finished DVD's will look like, therefore making adjustments to input video color, contrast, black level, etc. works out to be a little easier for me that way.

    The XS34's analog input video path can be set to compensate for 7.5 IRE sources ("standard' setting) or for recording 0 IRE sources ("enhanced" setting). It mostly is left in the "standard" input video black level setting since the vast majority of analog video I convert to DVD (VHS, laserdisc, 8mm, etc.) is at 7.5 IRE black level.
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  11. Lordsmurf,
    so do you not do any IRE adjustment when you transfer VHS using your JVC recorder?

    Gshelley61,
    I've got a prime image TBC with proc amp built in. It has adjustments for black level and luma. Unfortunately no meter or anything. So are you saying that in general for VHS transfer to DVD using the JVC recorder that a reduction in black level to properly adjust IRE will require a corresponding increase in luma?
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  12. Originally Posted by qlizard
    Gshelley61,
    I've got a prime image TBC with proc amp built in. It has adjustments for black level and luma. Unfortunately no meter or anything. So are you saying that in general for VHS transfer to DVD using the JVC recorder that a reduction in black level to properly adjust IRE will require a corresponding increase in luma?
    Correct... when you use a proc amp to adjust 7.5 IRE black levels down to 0 IRE by decreasing the setup (brightness), you will need to boost your luma (contrast, video/white level) up a bit. The reason for this is that when the source video black level is manually adjusted downward, the whole signal (including the peak luma levels) are also shifted downward. To maintain the source's original peak luma levels, you would need to increase the luma (contrast, video/white level) adjustment. This "stretches" the source video's luma range from 7.5-100 IRE to 0-100 IRE and results in a properly encoded DVD.

    DVD recorders that have black level compensation settings for 7.5 IRE sources do this automatically... that is, they decrease the black level -7.5 IRE while maintaining the source video's original white levels (luma).
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  13. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by qlizard
    Lordsmurf, so do you not do any IRE adjustment when you transfer VHS using your JVC recorder?
    I don't need any most of the time. I can record off tv tuner or a VHS tape from s-video input, and it's perfectly fine, and that's on DVD players with proper NTSC settings. At worst, I think the JVC may be slightly off by half an IRE or so, but so is everything else (and therefore pretty much impossible to see). Some are a few under or over. Nothing seems to be exactly at 0.0 or 7.5, but they sure do range in between!

    My worst problem is my local WB station broadcasts with excess chroma. The signal is way too saturated and tends to have chroma noise. I have to pump it through my proc amp and tune it down, as well as run it through the Panasonic to remove chroma noise.

    If you have satellite or cable, run channel to channel and see how wildly IRE, chroma and luma settings change. Nothing is correct. It's just "good enough" and precision is ignored.
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  14. Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    Nothing seems to be exactly at 0.0 or 7.5, but they sure do range in between!
    YES - this is very true. Sources are all over the place in terms of black level, luma, chroma, etc. It helps to have a good proc amp and to develop a good eye for adjusting the source signal to get the best results.
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  15. Originally Posted by gshelley61
    It helps to have a good proc amp and to develop a good eye for adjusting the source signal to get the best results.
    So without going through a lot of effort to establish precise IRE level, would it be reasonable to just look at the video, find something you know to be black, and adjust the level down until it looks black, then push up on the luma until the whole thing looks good? I guess thats what i've been doing, but not knowing why. I just knew it looked better. It helps to have some kind of verification for this madness.
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  16. It is somewhat of a pain in the ass. This is only an issue in North America where we are still dealing with the soon to be shut down NTSC 7.5 IRE black level analog broadcast video standard. Everywhere else in the world, the various analog video standards have always been at 0 IRE black level.

    Everything produced under our new digital ATSC broadcast standards correct this problem once and for all.
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  17. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Well, PAL equipment is not exempt. A lot of their hardware is whacked too. Not 0.0 but something else close.
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