"Getting closer" Help, my wife is about ready to throw me a

[refurbit]

After purchasing about $4,000 of equipment (justified on the promise to my wife that we could watch our video tapes on our DVD player), I’m less than impressed with what I’ve been able to accomplish – any help would be greatly appreciated - before I jump off a cliff.

Here’s what I have:
1.4 ghz Athalon, WIN98
Iwill MOBO
512 Ram
150 Gig of ATA 100 disk space
ATI All-in-Wonder Radeon
Plextor 16X burner
Sony TRV 11 digital Camcorder
Firewire card (came with Pinnacle Studio DV)
APEX 1500 DVD player

Programs I’ve tried:
Pinnicale DV Studio (Crap, finally gave up on this program)
Ulead movie factory (I use this for capture, editing and burning)
TMPGE (I use this to encode the AVI file I capture from Ulead. Its
given me the best results.)

I’m not sure if I expected too much or if I still haven’t figured out how to use everything with the right combination of software & hardware. But I feel my results are less than what I expected. Every VCD, SVCD, XVCD that I’ve created just doesn’t seem to justify the investment.

After scoring the forums and “how to” sections, the best VCD that I’ve been able to create still looks like crap in my opinion. I get fuzzy edges and blocky pictures. My biggest complaint is that the videos just aren’t as sharp as I would have hoped for, the quality is not even as good as my old VHS tapes.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated (please be kind), or am I just expecting too much?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: refurbit on 2001-12-22 07:54:05 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: refurbit on 2001-12-22 07:55:11 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: refurbit on 2001-12-25 06:26:13 ]</font>

[TIbrO]

The reason the quality is not even as good as your VHS tapes is because they are your source. Let's use a numerical scale as an example. If DVD is 30, and reality with 20/20 vision is 100, then studio release tapes of movies would be like 10. A studio done VCD is about 12. Even though VCD is 12, you're starting at 10, and throughout processing you lose a bunch of points. So the VCDs you're ending up with are like worth 6 to 8.

You should try making SVCDs, but I really recommend XVCDs, because they create the illusion of DVD sharpness by using the same resolution as DVD, and all you have to sacrifice is time on the disc. I currently make 2300 video and 224 audio bitrates, and this keeps most things I convert real nice.

I use an 8mm cam to tape stuff that I capture, and when I am done editing whatever and export it to VCD, watch it on my Apex AD703, it looks great. VCD 2.0 standard really is too blurry for me, too. I bought official release Phantom Menace on VCD from Malaysia when those came out, and it is the best VCD I've ever seen, and only studio released one, too. Even that has some artifacting and blurriness.

So to answer your question, I think that you are expecting too much from this. If you think you can make DVD quality picture and sound with your home computer with only $4000 of investment, then you're definitely expecting way too much.

[refurbit]

TIbro thanks for your thoughts, But my source is my digital camcorder. Since I'm not happy with the VCD's that I produce using digital tape, I have'nt even considered migrating my old VHS tapes. Hence should'nt a digital tape capture, conversion & burning provide results aleast as good as watching any VHS tape (not as the source)?

I just started wathcing DVD's and the picture quality is great. I'm not expecting the same quality just something simular to wathcing my digital tapes hooked up to my TV or a standard VHS tape hooked up to my TV.

Also, when encoding, how do I know that I've created a XVCD?

Your reply is greatly appreciated.

[sommersby]

I have been doing this for awhile now and what tibro said is exactly right, the only way you are even going to get close to your original tapes is to buy a dvd burner, capture at dvd resolution and burn them, and even then they will not be as good as you original tapes, I to converted my old home movies to VCD, one of the first things I did, and while I lost a little bit, look what I gained, 1> they will last for years. 2> I can make a copy in about 5 min anytime and not lose anything on the copy. And they can be stored anywhere. I still have the original tapes but how much longer will they last. Long enough for the prices to drop to around $200 for a dvd burner and then I will capture and convert them again....lol

[sommersby]

Xvcd is the same as vcd only with a higher bitrate, you will see some improvement in motion scenes but I don't know if that will be to your satisfaction. What are you capturing at? When I do laser disks, a very good analog source, I capture at 640x480 using picvideo or huffyuv, then encode, I did this with my home movies also and got very good results, well to me they where good...lol

[sommersby]

I should of added this, your computer is plenty fast enough, so capture at as high a resolution as you disk space permits, that will insure you get the best results.

[sommersby]

One moer thing after reading you first post again, I think if you read reviews here you will find that the apex player while a great deal, will not perform near as well as a better player, I have an apex, a fisher and a pioneer and I can tell you the pioneer looks much better than the apex and slightly better than the fisher on everything, including dvd's, and the pioneer will also play everything, except mp3's.

[refurbit]

Sommersby thanks for your reply, I guess I'm just expecting too much and will wait until I can afford a DVD burner as well.

You raise a good question about what I'm capturing at. Using Ulead, I'm not able to change any capture settings. When The program recognizes my camcorder, it shadoes out any capture options. I believe that it captures at 720X480 since this is the highest possible resolution for digital video.

I've heard alot on the forums about picvideo and huffyuv. I guess I should try them and see if it helps. Where do I find these products?

Thanks

[shochan]

Ok, To your ass you need to try a plain old standard svcd. Dont let these people talk you into a xvcd. It will make a big differance coming from a digital cam. give it a whirl.

[refurbit]

10-4 on the DVD Player. I just bought it and have heard enough about its marginal reputation in order to make me return it. I think I'll go with a Pioneer.

[sommersby]

then here is a deal for ya, if you live near a sears store, go on-line and find the lowest price for the pioneer they have at sears, most carry the dv-434, the last time I checked you could buy it on-line for $134, print out the lowest you find and take it to sears, they will match the price. thats about a $100 savings.

[TheInformer]

refurbit,

If you have a MiniDV camcorder, you're capturing at 704x480 resolution. When I encode video from my JVC MiniDV, I get very good results even when converting to VCD format.

A point to be made is this though - standard VCDs aren't the greatest in terms of quality and never will be. If the quality isn't up to what you expect, you'll have to move up the chain to an xVCD or SVCD of some flavor. See if that's the quality you're looking for.

sommersby makes a good point about the DVD player you're using. I have an Apex 1500 myself. While it basically plays everything, it doesn't play it with the greatest quality. I've also heard Pioneers give the best playback quality though so maybe you want to venture down that path.

[TIbrO]

Wait a second... so you're using Ulead to capture because your camcorder came with that or something? And yeah, DV should look WAY better than analog video capture card like I have... Your stuff should look awesome when you capture it.

Now, does it look awesome to you, and then when you encode it to VCD 2.0 standard is when it looks crappy to you? If you want, I can send you my XVCD Template, and you can use it in TMPGEnc to test it out, see if you like XVCD.

[TIbrO]

There, I have emailed you my template. Check it out and see what you think.

[sommersby]

I was also going to say, as I think Tibro was pointing to, try vdub for capturing, it is free and does a great job of capturing, includes all kinds of filter and audio options and that is where you can try the different codecs.

[refurbit]

Sommersby, I'm off to Sears, thanks for the recommedation.

Tibro, I downloaded a demo version of Ulead and yes your template would be greatly appreated. please send to kgniadek@att.net. My digital video look great when hooked directly to my tv, its when I creat a VCD that things fall apart.

Theinformer, what tools/software do you use?

Shochan, what tools/software/methods do you use to creaye a VCD?

Your responses have been overwellming. All of you are great and thanks for your help.

[EricB]

refurbit:

First, some background. The DV cam does all the "capturing" and conversion. So when you transfer your video to the computer, it is just that, a file transfer. So, there are no other resolutions or huffy codecs to use.

The video is interlaced due to the framesize (720x480 NTSC) so you will get the best results using SVCD where the source and the output are also interlaced.

The standared SVCD template in TMPGenc has always worked pretty well for me. Set the "Motion Search Precision" to as high quality as you can stand (ie. higher quality = slow encode).

Finally, try unlocking the standard template, and changing the frame size to 352x480. This seems a little strange up front, but it gives you a frame with plenty of resolution, while providing more bit-rate needed for both motion, and the inherent noise in home video (yes, even DV video).

The final piece of the puzzle is a good DVD player that supports XSVCD (think Pioneer).

[EricB]

One more thing: the original AVI file that you transferred from your camcorder should look great on the computer. If it doesn't, then you have some other firewire setup problem.

[baynguyen]

I had a setup almost like yours
Abit mother board with 512 mB memroy
AMD Xp 1800 (1.533MHz)
ATI AIW Radeon
Windows XP pro
Camcorder
APEX AD600A

For quick making VCD
I use ATI TV display capture straight from Camera or VHS into VCD mpeg format
Burn it with Nero and the play it on DVD
the quality is pretty good for a this kind of fast conversion to play on DVD

For real good quality SVCD
I use ATI TV display capture from source into ATI AVI format 640x480 best quality. This format produced a huge but excellent AVI file. then I use TMGEnc to convert it into SVCD with filter/codec etc. (<--see HOW TO menu)

Those are simple ways I used to do

ATI TV display comes with the bundle software when you buy the ATI AW Radeon card.

You can use iuVCD to the same job as ATI TV and event better because use can use different compressed codec (software available to download from this helpful site)

For the best of what you have I recomment you use Windows Xp. I try ATI AW card with 95,98,ME,2000 and XP
Windows XP give me the best TV display and capture.
You need to download the lastest ATI XP drivers from ATI
And the rule is GARBAGE IN GARBAGE OUT. You have to have a GOOD video source to create a GOOD VCD.

[refurbit]

EricB, you said that I might consider my Firewire setup. I've never had any problems with it, but where can I check the setup? Does windows have any setup features to check?

Thanks
Refurbit

[fuji250]

I recommend that you make XSVCD's...it's just an SVCD on steroids basically...with CinemaCraft Encoder, you can get VERY high quality results that will rival your original source (of course, if done correctly)

[[*]_BonKerS_[*]]

I need to add something, actually more of a complete setup.

1. When you do a file transfer from a miniDVcam to a computer you don't need to do anything.
2. When you EXPORT you can play with the file sizes.
3. Export your video as an AVI with little to no compression.
4. Go to the tools section and use the VCDhelp online bitrate calculator to find out what the bitrate should be. Don't forget to choose the SVCD option (This is the thing that determines the quality, higher is better) If your movie is over 40 minutes you might want to think about using more than one CD-R for the task.
5. Open up TMPGenc and take the bitrate that was given to you and, under the settings type your bitrate in. Use 2-Pass VBR, don't forget. Set the motion to ULTRA HIGH so you get the best quality. Set the frame size as 480x480 (don't worry about it why it is square just do it).
6. Do your export and then watch it on the computer. It should look good seeing as how it was taken from a miniDV. If you aren't getting the quality you want STILL, then I think you should either give up because you are doing something something wrong or just wait to get a DVD burner which will give you your video at an almost uncompressed size.

Hope this helps.
-bonks

ps. yes I know that I repeated some stuff that was said.

[kinneera]

What I don't get is why, if you were willing to spend $4000, didn't you just get a DVD-burner?

[refurbit]

Thanks for all of the helpful responses. I've been able to get the SVCD to look a little better but not as good as I think it still should be. Here's what I still don't understand and the complete process that I use:

1. I open Ulead Movie Factory with my DV Cam attached via Firewire.

2. I hit the capture button and it controls my camcorder and begins to capture my video.

3. After about 20 seconds of test capture I stop the capture and it places the captured AVI in the example bar.

4. I minimize the Ulead and open the created AVI using Windows media player or ATI's player and play the AVI.

The AVI looks like crap which leads me to believe that I'm still not doing something right during the capture or "file transfer" process. Hence, no matter what I do during the conversion or export process, I'll still end up with a lousy VCD, SVC XSVCD.

So I think that I've narrowed this down to the beginning steps, but what I'm doing wrong is still a mystery.

Things that I tried include:

Checking Ulead to see if ther are settings that I can adjust for the capture process. There are none.

Checking Windows to see if there are adjustments to device properties, I can't find any.

If I'm exporting my data from a very high quality source (miniDV), shouldn’t I expect an AVI to be very close in quality to the original tape play back? Yet when I use Ulead Movies Factory to capture and creat an AVI and then play it back, at full screen It's blocky or has this appearance that heat distortion is around the picture.

A couple of you eluded to being able to adjust the capture settings but can’t find anywhere to do this.

I believe that if the AVI is not satifactory then anything that follows will be less than satisfactory.

BonKerS - You stated that "When you do a file transfer from a miniDVcam to a computer you don't need to do anything."

Is this file transfer done out side of ULead or are you referring to the Capture of processes?

As for why I didn’t buy a DVD burner. At the time I put this system together (6 months ago) they seemed too expensive. Now that prices have dropped I'm more inclined to make the investment.

Thanks, Thanks and Thanks for all your help!
Refurbit