Filter to remove graininess ?

[RWANDREWS]

Problem: After capturing an excellent source such as LD or DVD through my Datavideo TBC to Canopus ADVC-100, then encoding with TMPGEnc at a high VBR (6000 average or so) I notice the finished product looks good, but with a bit of graininess, to use a photography term. Actual source seems smoother on my 32" TV. I capture at 720x480 NTSC and encode at same. It is most noticeable when I capture a PAL DVD, in order to convert to NTSC via the above methods
Is this inherent in my methods, or should I use a filter? Please don't suggest Virtual Dub, as I don't understand that program, & I can't use it to capture anyway.
I guess part of my question is, can encoding at TOO HIGH a bit rate, make the video worse than the source ?

[Cobra]

Since you're using TMPGEnc to convert to DVD, if you enable the "Noise Reduction" filter it will smooth out the video and get rid of your graininess.

can encoding at TOO HIGH a bit rate, make the video worse than the source ?

No. The higher the bitrate, the more true to the source the final file will be.

Please don't suggest Virtual Dub, as I don't understand that program

There are plenty of guides to the left (on the green bar) that will help you to understand VirtualDub. It's not that hard, and it's the Swiss Army Knife for video encoders!

Hope this helps,

Cobra

[Perro Grande]

As Cobra pointed out, the Noise Reduction on TMPG is quite good, although also quite time consuming. Expect the time necessary to process your file to (at a minimum) double.

That said, if you've figured out TMPGEnc, you should have no trouble with VirtualDub. There are so many things that can be done with VDub, including filters that might be useful for your project, that learning it would be well worth the time.

I would encourage you to read guides on VDub -- especially frameserving from VDub to TMPG. You'll still have all the familiar features of TMPG, with the ability to do a lot with the source even before it is encoded.

The grain you are seeing might also be related to dot crawl. There is a nifty VDub filter for this that might be worth consideration.

My process for virtually any and all analog capture via canopus is:

Video in (to Canopus)
DV captured via WinIO
Open resulting AVI file(s) in VDub
Edit as necessary
Apply desired filters
Frame serve to TMPG
Open frameserved file in TMPG
Setup my MPEG2 settings, Noise Reduction, IVTC (if necessary)
Produce MPEG2 file
Author and Burn DVD.

*IF* I'm doing something funky with the audio, I may use other programs to process the audio, adding it back in during the authoring stage.

[RWANDREWS]

Thanks a lot Cobra & Perro Grande, I am going to try VDub after first trying just the noise filter on TMPG. I was rather hoping the process would not get that much longer to improve my results, but I guess that's what I have to do.

I really wasn't sure if I should use a noise reduction filter, since my source was quite good. I thought they were for VHS captures & the like.

I'm going to try your work methods, after doing a bit of reading, Perro Grande, & see if I get improvement worth the effort.

Having this site and forum has been so helpful, I can't imagine what I would do without it.

[yodel]

Talking about VirtualDub, i tried this once, i capture in DV AVI 2 file format, which VirtualDub can handle, but trying something simple leaves me with a super big file in the end, as a result, do you need extras to
use VirtualDub? drivers ?

[yodel]

Filters....... i guess you loose some "grainyness" during the mpeg conversion, so you can leave it in, the picture will be sharper,
resolution of PAL/NTSC is much lower than that of the PC monitor....

[BJ_M]

it's funny how in the film world - we add grain in to video to film conversions to "simulate" film grain and for a more film like look ..

then everyone wants to remove it ..

[yodel]

On the other hand.... when "graininess" is removed, the Mpeg2 codec
has an easier "job" in the sense of encoding, grainy = detail !
or "remove" it throug a lower bit rate when encoding...

[yodel]

it's funny how in the film world - we add grain in to video to film conversions to "simulate" film grain and for a more film like look ..

then everyone wants to remove it ..

Yes.... that's why i don't like those 100Hz tv's, it's too smooth....

but i guess you mean the "grain" of the emulsion ?
i guess they will "simulate" the Tecnicolor/Agfa colors in the future
on video...

[BJ_M]

it's funny how in the film world - we add grain in to video to film conversions to "simulate" film grain and for a more film like look ..

then everyone wants to remove it ..

Yes.... that's why i don't like those 100Hz tv's, it's too smooth....

but i guess you mean the "grain" of the emulsion ?
i guess they will "simulate" the Tecnicolor/Agfa colors in the future
on video...

already do ... http://www.redgiantsoftware.com/magbulsuit.html

[yodel]

To what a cost !

[SaSi]

it's funny how in the film world - we add grain in to video to film conversions to "simulate" film grain and for a more film like look ..

then everyone wants to remove it ..

On the grain issue, I don't know if users of the DivX codec have ever noticed that in the codec configuration utility there is an option to activate or deactivate the film effect. It also has a slider to choose how much grain you want.

During playback on the PC, it might be fine to have this. But if you are converting DivX AVIs to MPEG-2, the encoder first decodes the AVI using the DivX codec and settings, so this setting will automatically add grain to the source video, even it it doesn't have it.

[redwudz]

Talking about VirtualDub, i tried this once, i capture in DV AVI 2 file format, which VirtualDub can handle, but trying something simple leaves me with a super big file in the end, as a result, do you need extras to
use VirtualDub? drivers ?

If you use the method Perro Grande discussed, you can just frameserve to TMPGEnc and avoid that intermediate file. The only add on I use with Virtualdub is the Panasonic DV codec.

[yodel]

Talking about VirtualDub, i tried this once, i capture in DV AVI 2 file format, which VirtualDub can handle, but trying something simple leaves me with a super big file in the end, as a result, do you need extras to
use VirtualDub? drivers ?

If you use the method Perro Grande discussed, you can just frameserve to TMPGEnc and avoid that intermediate file. The only add on I use with Virtualdub is the Panasonic DV codec.

Aah, yes, i'm now looking into Avisynth, seems to be a great tool to do this, have found some sites already, i want to automate my "steps" as
much as possible, using CCE basic, Besweet, AC3Machine.

[DaveS]

it's funny how in the film world - we add grain in to video to film conversions to "simulate" film grain and for a more film like look ..

then everyone wants to remove it ..

Yes.... that's why i don't like those 100Hz tv's, it's too smooth....

but i guess you mean the "grain" of the emulsion ?
i guess they will "simulate" the Tecnicolor/Agfa colors in the future
on video...

already do ... http://www.redgiantsoftware.com/magbulsuit.html

it looks like the workflow w/ the above is 60i -> 24p -> 3:2 pulldown back to 60i...I guess that gives the video a film look ... is that a good workflow to use?

[SatStorm]

The combo of the static noise reduction / Dynamic noise reduction (virtualdub), can hundle graininess pretty well. Also it is a much faster alternative for this than using the (excellent) TMPGenc's noise reduction filter.

[FulciLives]

This is an AviSynth 2.5x script using the Convolution3D noise filter.

This is for TOP FIELD video which is for most captures other than DV format:

LoadPlugin("Convolution3d.dll")
avisource("D:\capture.avi")
SeparateFields()
odd=SelectOdd.Convolution3D(0, 6, 10, 6, 8, 2.8, 0)
evn=SelectEven.Convolution3D(0, 6, 10, 6, 8, 2.8, 0)
Interleave(evn,odd)
Weave()
ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=true)

If you are using BOTTOM FIELD video such as DV format then the script is almost the same with one difference:

LoadPlugin("Convolution3d.dll")
avisource("D:\capture.avi")
SeparateFields()
odd=SelectOdd.Convolution3D(0, 6, 10, 6, 8, 2.8, 0)
evn=SelectEven.Convolution3D(0, 6, 10, 6, 8, 2.8, 0)
Interleave(evn,odd)
Weave()
DoubleWeave.SelectOdd()
ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=true)

Both scrips are "optimized" for use with CCE but if you use TMPGEnc it is very easy to change.

Simply change the last line in the script:

Change from this ---> ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=true)
Change to this ---> ConvertToRGB(interlaced=true)

The settings I used for Convolution3D is the preset known as "movieLQ" which is a good setting IMHO for LaserDisc captures.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[ronnylov]

Problem: After capturing an excellent source such as LD or DVD through my Datavideo TBC to Canopus ADVC-100, then encoding with TMPGEnc at a high VBR (6000 average or so) I notice the finished product looks good, but with a bit of graininess, to use a photography term. Actual source seems smoother on my 32" TV. I capture at 720x480 NTSC and encode at same. It is most noticeable when I capture a PAL DVD, in order to convert to NTSC via the above methods
Is this inherent in my methods, or should I use a filter? Please don't suggest Virtual Dub, as I don't understand that program, & I can't use it to capture anyway.
I guess part of my question is, can encoding at TOO HIGH a bit rate, make the video worse than the source ?

Instead of capturing a DVD source, why not "rip" it digitally with a DVD-ROM drive? Then you will get the original quality and no need to reencode unless you need to lower the bitrate or convert PAL/NTSC. But you still get better quality compared to capturing the DVD.

[yodel]

FulciLives, thanks for posting the scripts, but what is the end result ?
i guess still an avi, but "worked over" by the filter ? is the dll is also freeware ? i'm still new to this all, please, give me some hints...

[RWANDREWS]

I used the noise filter in TMPGEnc on a PAL DVD capture & was quite pleased with the results. However, it took 42 hours !!!

I am going to pursue the Virtual Dub method, when I get a chance. I captured the DVD because it was the easiest way to convert PAL to NTSC for me. I don't normally do much of this, so I was looking for a quick uncomplicated method. I think my results are quite good. Thanks for all the replies, I think many people found them useful.

[yodel]

RWANDREWS, try CCE Basic, I also bought TMPGEncPlus, but the
slightest use of extra features takes a lot of time indeed,
The latest CCE Basic is great ! fast.

[FulciLives]

FulciLives, thanks for posting the scripts, but what is the end result ?
i guess still an avi, but "worked over" by the filter ? is the dll is also freeware ? i'm still new to this all, please, give me some hints...

Here is what you do.

Download the newest version of AviSynth 2.5x ... right now I think that would be AviSynth 2.54

Then download the AviSynth 2.5x version of Convolution3D

Then also make sure you get the newest version of VirtualDubMod

AviSynth
http://www.avisynth.org/

Convolution3D filter (for AviSynth 2.5x)
http://www.avisynth.org/warpenterprises/

VirtualDubMod
http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/virtualdubmod/VirtualDubMod_1_5_10_1_All_inclusive.zip

Now copy and paste the script into NOTEPAD and save it with an AVS file extention (not a *.txt) so it looks like this ---> filename.avs

Now you can OPEN this AVS file in CCE and encode it.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
You can also EDIT the AVI in VirtualDubMod then use the AviSynth scripting module that is built-in to VirtualDubMod to IMPORT your edits into your AviSynth script. I would put the edit line right after the line that loads the AVI file.

The option you want in VirtualDubMod for the editing is this:

Along the top click on TOOLS and under that click on SCRIPT EDITOR then use IMPORT FRAMESET AS TRIMS to copy and paste your edits in your AviSynth script.

If you just load the AVI file then the script will be empty and you have to copy and past it into your notepad file OR just open your script in VirtualDubMod then the script will "be there" and you can just drop your edits into it.

[yodel]

Thankyou, FulciLives, i will start with this, i once tried something
with VirtualDub, but soon ran out of hd space, don't know if i did something wrong then, but couldn't find the error that time.

[SLK001]

Capping from a LD should yield you excellent results. I suspect that you have either a cabling problem or equipment problem that is costing you signal strength. Try bypassing your TBC (you don't need one with a LD).

Also, you shouldn't be capping a DVD anyway - just rip it to your HD.

You say the problem mostly occurs with a PAL > NTSC conversion, but you don't list the steps that you use.

Why don't you understand VirtualDub? It is one of the finer programs out there. And you can add filters galore to VD when you frameserve through VD to your encoder. Don't frameserve? Why not?