analog antenna turn off in 2009

[edDV]

[color=navy]( I'm wondering if they will outputting HD broadcasts over analog cable. I mean, it looks like they are
doing this, but reducing it to SD 'like specs. I could be wrong. But, I think I would be happy with that
type as an alternative to HD, in the so called, raw.

Most major network stations are currently broadcasting HD or upscaled SD 24x7 on the main digital channel. ATSC allows realtime switching from 1080i or 720p to 480i but most legacy HDTV set tuners glitch badly when this is done. Around here PBS is the only one doing format switching and then only twice a day.

By keeping the broadcast signal 1080i or 720p, local stations are free to switch between 480i 4:3, 480i 16x9 and HD 16:9 sources on the fly at their end without glitching the home TV sets. Commercial breaks sometimes switch from HD to upscaled SD several times.

Current HDTV sets are good but not great at handling the aspect ratio shifts. Some maintain vertical height for SD 16:9, some have the four side black unless changed manually.

It will be interesting to see how the ATSC tuners intended for analog sets handle aspect ratio. The LG-Zenith box indicates 4 aspect ratio presets. One would be letterbox, another would be side crop.

[edDV]

The cable provider (supposively) provides both Analog and Digital cable tv. You have the option of
either one. But, if you with digital, then you have to have their box to view it. I choose to have
Analog. SO, I didn't need anything but my tv set. So, I use my vcr and tv, and I'm happy. Really.
But, I've seen both, (digital and analog) and they both look pretty similar, except that the digital
doesn't have any (analog) noise. But, the catch here, is that BOTH video sources are being sent
through the same cable wires.

Analog and digital come through the same coax cable but on different 6MHz channels.

US cable companies send analog on the lower channels and digital on the upper channels. Analog channels use NTSC. Digital channels use QAM modulation. Each 6MHz QAM channel can carry up to 36Mb/s of data.

02-06 Low Band VHF
95-99 Mid Band VHF (sometimes used for digital QAM)
14-22 Mid Band VHF
07-13 High Band VHF
23-36 Super Band
37-64 Hyber Band (sometimes used for digital QAM)

65-158 Ultra Band
(mostly used for digital QAM with 6-12 subchannels per 6MHz channel)

So, I'm wondering if HD will follow something similar. Either in is true HD glory or modified, perhaps
SD or xSD or something. I don't know. I'm just theorizing at the moment.)[/color]

Anyways..

Look at the great TV series, 'LOST'. What a fantastic series. I LOVE this show, and love all the
casts, and so much more. But watch it in HD and you are instaulted by all (downgraded) degrading
quality of the HD. And they also apply the tipicle modified telecine system (I have lately been
terming it as, TEC (Time Expansion/Compression)) this source, too.. so you can't get a proper and
clean IVTC out of this series. This is just one example of the nonense with HD.

My best guestimate is that broadcast providers and their HD content will vary their bitrate scheme,
one to another. So, for instance, while in one city the bitrate is 19MB, in another, it might be,
15MB, and so on.. So some people may have slightely better HD (recorded) versions than others.
And when you are locked in a city with a given bitrate scheme, you are 'locked' into that scheme
(quality level) for ever, unless they change or something. But just remember, that with all antenna
signals, location of the TV channel will also be different. That means, that while your ABC is using
a lower quality scheme, you NBC or PBS or whatever channel you are able to receive for your given
area, may be higher quality. And then there is the other idium, where they will give you reduced
quality at a certain time and then higher quality, later. And this too, will vary. Ultimately, all this
will all vary from person to person. I've already seen this in the (ABC) tv series, 'LOST', and
compared it with someone else 'es, last year, though I no longer have the sources -- I didn't think
to keep it at the time, and I should have -- and all this makes me puke.

What we really should do (at least it would provide something interesting) is gather a few members
together and record a few of the popular HD channels and post them up so that we can get a
'guage' at the different quality apsects. This would prove interesting, indeed.

EDIT: one thing I want to add is that I was not saying that HD or HDTV is worse than analog
cable tv, but that it is not all that what it has been so hyped about. It is undoubtedbly better
quality, but that for its medium in relatation to older medium like digital cable/satellite, they
will always taint or reduce or hinder or jsut flat out *NOT* release the high quality that this
supposively hyped new standard is capable of. And, for the time being, I prefer to just watch
my analog cable, though mostly because I only have a few HD channels, if any.

-vhelp 4498

Digital HD like SD is just data over cable. Quality depends on bitrate assigned per channel. Digital channels are tuned by a cable box or clearQAM tuner (unencrypted channels only). The cable company determines channel assignments and bitrate per channel.

1920x1080i/29.97 and 1280x720p/59.94 use about the same bitrate. ATSC stations are broadcasting at 12-19Mb/s. Most cable systems seem to be passing the bitrates given to them over the data line from the TV station which can be higher than broadcast bitrates. So in summary, quality is determined by the cable company. The tradeoff is quality vs. more channels.

Lost is broadcast by ABC as 720p/59.94 with frames repeated in a 3 then 2 sequence (e.g. AAABBCCCDDEEEFF). Normal IVTC will not be successful. The idea is to remove replicated frames to get back to ABCDEF 24p. 1080i uses similar telecine patterns to classic 480i. Normal IVTC can be used for 1080i.

[vhelp]

Morning all..

edDV, thank you for your constructive criticism, much appreciated

Oh, I am just reminded of that time when I used to get all those other HDTV channels
back in the month of February. I should test my tuner card out and maybe report back
the results (in that other -old- thread) .. maybe.., cause I'm dying to see how 1080i
plays (handles on my computer) and looks on my screen.

Have a good day, everyone.

-vhelp 4499

[spikeylikesit]

While true in most cases about Cable and Satellite TV not needing a converter box once the switch occurs, you have failed to point out that if you have the Coax connected directly to your analog TV, you will in fact need a converter box as of 2/19/2009. You may either opt to use the boxes provided by your cable company (upgrading your service), or purchasing a digital to analog converter box. Since both major satellite providers in the US (DirecTV and Dish Network) require each set have a set-top box, you will not need to purchase a converter box.
As pointed out by another user, the model of SDTV that you have is perfectly fine for over the air, as well as satellite and cable broadcasts as well.
Bottom line for all users in the US: on 2/19/2009, if you have an older tv you will need a converter box of some sort. If you have an SDTV or HDTV, you are fine, they have ATSC tuners already. Best Buy was one of the first dealers to make the full switch. They are no longer selling any TVs without ATSC tuners. Circuit City is in the process of making that happen now as well. Just make sure, if you are shopping for any new TV, that it does in fact have an ATSC tuner. The Law (FCC) now requires sets that do not include one to have a disclaimer statement in full view of the consumer, so it should in fact be on all labeling.
Now, if they would just follow through on the DVD recorders, we would be fine.

[vhelp]

Now, if they would just follow through on the DVD recorders, we would be fine.

Yeah, I'm wondering if and when the dvd recorders do begin their new ERA in this market,
will they downsample to 720x480 DVD specs or keep the HD 'type' spec.. ie, 1080i and 720p
resolutions. I inquire because so far there is no dvd (or should I say, HD-recorder) that records
these type of video content. Maybe the consortium hasn't ruled on what the final destinate
will be. I don't know.

-vhelp 4501

[jagabo]

you have failed to point out that if you have the Coax connected directly to your analog TV, you will in fact need a converter box as of 2/19/2009.

This isn't exactly true. Until 2012, cable carriers will be required to either continue carrying local broadcast stations in analog format, or provide (at no extra charge?) a set top box capable of performing the D/A conversion.

http://www.abqtrib.com/news/2007/sep/15/fcc-extends-deadline-analog-subscribers/

As for the nation's analog cable subscribers, cable operators must either convert the digital signal to analog at the point where the cable signal originates or supply customers with a "down converter" device that will change digital signals to analog at the TV set.

My guess is that they'll start phasing out analog channels in 2009. They may reduce the analog tier to channels 2-13, enough to carry the local broadcasts, and use the rest of their current analog spectrum for digital.

[gadgetguy]

Comcast has already started phasing out analog channels in our area. They moved "Oxygen" to the digital realm without warning or announcement. Just one day, if you tuned to that channel you got static. Of course it was just Oxygen so no-one cared, but now they are planning to move the local access channels out of the analog range and the local government is up in arms about it, writing letters of "disappointment" to Comcast and crying in the local paper.

[edDV]

While true in most cases about Cable and Satellite TV not needing a converter box once the switch occurs, you have failed to point out that if you have the Coax connected directly to your analog TV, you will in fact need a converter box as of 2/19/2009. You may either opt to use the boxes provided by your cable company (upgrading your service), or purchasing a digital to analog converter box. Since both major satellite providers in the US (DirecTV and Dish Network) require each set have a set-top box, you will not need to purchase a converter box.
As pointed out by another user, the model of SDTV that you have is perfectly fine for over the air, as well as satellite and cable broadcasts as well.
Bottom line for all users in the US: on 2/19/2009, if you have an older tv you will need a converter box of some sort. If you have an SDTV or HDTV, you are fine, they have ATSC tuners already. Best Buy was one of the first dealers to make the full switch. They are no longer selling any TVs without ATSC tuners. Circuit City is in the process of making that happen now as well. Just make sure, if you are shopping for any new TV, that it does in fact have an ATSC tuner. The Law (FCC) now requires sets that do not include one to have a disclaimer statement in full view of the consumer, so it should in fact be on all labeling.
Now, if they would just follow through on the DVD recorders, we would be fine.

Further to what jagabo said, what you say here applies only to those receiving analog TV from an antenna. Cable will be no different in Feb, 2009 than it is today. The analog channels will still be tunable by analog sets. For most cable systems these channels are already using the digital feed from the TV station. The conversion to analog is done either at the cable company head end, or in the set top box.

There are two changes that the FCC is demanding of cable companies as part of the digital changeover.

1. That analog versions of over the air broadcast stations continue to be available to basic cable subscribers until 2012. If the cable company decides to go all digital, they are required to provide a cable box to basic service subscribers at no additional cost. The idea here is that a basic analog cable subscriber should see no additional cost to continue to receive local TV stations over cable after the changeover.

2. The cable companies are also required to provide unencrypted "clearQAM" digital versions of the local "must carry" primary digital channels to basic service subscribers. That means digital sets with QAM tuners will be able to tune the digital version of the local channels (SD or HD) without the need for a cable box or a high definition service subscription.

Note that this only applies to "must carry" class stations. "Retransmission Consent" stations (major network affiliates) negotiate their own terms with the cable system but most will be available unencrypted as clearQAM digital as well even to basic service subscribers. PBS has negotiated a separate agreement with the cable industry that their primary channel and all subchannels will be made available as clearQAM digital to all subscribers without need for a cable box. Note also that an ATSC tuner will not tune cable QAM. You need a tuner which can also tune clearQAM.

The net result is an SD or HD TV set with QAM capable tuner will be able to directly tune the local digital channels as clearQAM without a cable box with a basic service subscription. This is great news for satellite subscribers who can now get the locals in digital with just a basic cable subscription.

The FCC digital requirement and the user demand for more HD cable channels will gradually force a reduction of analog cable channels in favor of encrypted QAM. Each analog channel can be replaced with up to 12 SD or 2 HD digital channels. Analog cable customers will see a steady reduction in analog cable channels in coming years. Smaller systems will be forced to eliminate analog channels completely and require use of a cable box.

[edDV]

Comcast has already started phasing out analog channels in our area. They moved "Oxygen" to the digital realm without warning or announcement. Just one day, if you tuned to that channel you got static. Of course it was just Oxygen so no-one cared, but now they are planning to move the local access channels out of the analog range and the local government is up in arms about it, writing letters of "disappointment" to Comcast and crying in the local paper.

This going to vary locally. Some cable infrastructure has only 1970's 550MHz capacity (no ultraband). These systems must either upgrade the infrastructure or convert to all digital. Systems installed later will have 750MHz to 1GHz capacity. These systems can continue with analog while adding more digital services in the ultraband. In time these systems will also need to reduce analog channels to allow for more digital HD channels.

[edDV]

I sympathize with you vhelp. I attended the NAB conventions when Sony, etc. were demonstrating their early full bandwidth HDTV systems. Stunning to say the least.

The good news is that the limiting factor is not the HDTV itself, but rather the source quality. There is a lot of room for improvement, and things keep getting better.

Keep in mind how soft and noisy the early B+W and then Color SDTV broadcasts were. Things kept getting better. Farnsworth deserves a lot of credit for designing a TV format that lasted so long and improved so much.

I was one of the people demonstrating components for the 80's HiVision system at NAB (not for Sony). The early studio infrastructure was wideband analog component (up to 30MHz per component) and the studio pictures were stunning limited only by camera and monitor technology. But when it came to recording, the early MUSE digital encoding left much to be desired. In the 90's digital encoding and compression issues were solved to the point where an all digital infrastructure could be used from the studio camera to the home screen. The 2000's are seeing this technology implemented with dramatic cost reduction to the point where digital high definition acquisition and editing is becoming possible in the home.

As you can see in the following article, 1991 futurists were projecting 2010 for the feasibility of digital broadcasting let alone home HDTV production. The digital broadcasting issues were solved by 2000 a full decade before projected.

Refs
NYT 1991 article on HiVision
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE2DE1039F935A15752C1A967958260&sec=...pagewanted=all
MUSE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_sub-nyquist_sampling_Encoding_system

[handyguy]

'Comcast has already started phasing out analog channels in our area.'

Same in my area but they choose ones no one watches much.

[RabidDog]

Without adding anything to the debate..
This is what you said

I'm so far away from a transmitter, that I could use an antenna (analog or digital) if I wanted to. I either watch cable or DVDs.

But that might muddy the issue for an already confused reader..
What you meant to say
I'm so far away from a transmitter, that I could not use an antennae (analogue or digital) if I wanted to..
People in the uk are already making this mistake dvb-t=hdtv (Freeview is not Hidef and wont be till 2012 (or later) write to your MP if you want it changed.
Incidentally the spare spectrum is being auctioned off at this minute, long before its available.. what GOv wouldnt want the Cash now...especially when you've got an Olympics to fund.