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  1. Member ArtAutDudeJR94B's Avatar
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    How did they capture Videotapes in the late 80s? Did they use a PCI Card? FireWire (since it came out in 1986, I presume maybe?)

    Please let me know I want to recreate late 80s/early 90s style of video-capture. If possible.

    I use a 96 Hauppauge Wincast/TV PCI Card to capture my Videotapes as if it was captured in 1996 - 2003. I do also use a 2005 Hauppauge WinTV-150 PCI Card to capture the as if it were captured in 2005 - 2012. Which now the 2005 card waits to be used again until then. But it did good until I got my 1996 card a few days back!

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  2. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    They did not capture videotapes in the late 80s on ANY kind of computer, for consumers.
    Producers digitized analog tapes using pro hardware, and it went straight to digital tape*. Only at the very end of the 80s was there some kinds of compression (DVI aka digital video interactive, not to be confused with DVI "interface" cables and connection ports). It still was very inefficient, so medium high bitrate for crap quality. It wasn't until the 90s with Cinepak, and MJPEG and MPEG 1 (and later MPEG2), that capture started to become commonplace. Even Cinepak looked (and still looks) like crap, at 1Mbps. And don't try throwing more bitrate at it, it will crash.
    I worked at a video production/post-production company in the 90s, and it wasn't until ~95-96 that a NLE became viable as an option, and back then the ONLY decent pro one was AVID Media Composer, which used its own compression using propreitary encode & decode cards (yes they were separate), which often required a proprietary card extension housing to handle all the separate cards needed. Similarly, our ProTools DAW required ~10-12 cards, for all the input, output, timing, routing, and especially DSP. All of which is commonly done in software now (except for extra in/out needs).
    It wasn't until DV (97), and the popularity of VCDs (93 onward) and DVDs (97 onwards), that consumers started regularly capturing. So a card from 2003 or 2005 is still pretty early.


    Scott

    *early VFX/Mixing framestore hardware input & output uncompressed SD, had decently high internal bandwidth, but due to the state of memory at the time were limited to just a few seconds or minute of time, so only good for specialty stuff.

    All of this was $$$$. I remember specc'ing a ProTools system for myself back then and it was $78k. The AVID was more.


    Scott
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 11th Mar 2023 at 19:08.
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    I was still a lurker here in 2005. People who were seriously into VHS capture back in 2005 used the ATI Radeon 9600 and 9800 series All-In-Wonder AGP cards and their proprietary software. These cards and their software definitely won't work on a modern computer. They require a PC with an AGP slot running Windows XP 32-bit.

    At the time, the slightly older Hauppauge WinTV PVR-250 PCI card was the preferred Hauppage TV tuner/analog capture card for most members here who had a home theater PC because it was a very reliable card. The performance of the Hauppauge WinTV PVR-150 PCI, the replacement for the Hauppauge WinTV PVR-250, was less predictable. It was very troublesome for some people and rock-solid for others. These analog TV cards could also be used for VHS capture and had the advantage of being much less expensive than the ATI AIW cards.
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  4. There was no PCI in 1980s; it was ISA, MCA, EISA for IBM PC compatibles, no idea what Apple used. No Firewire. HDDs were 5 to 80 MB.

    Avid 1/Media Composer was released in 1989: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDkTHOYneZ0 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac1J1bLMucw AFAIK, with Avid one would inject videos as proxies, then build a timeline in "offline" mode, then use it as EDL to "online" using actual tapes, with Avid juggling tape decks. Is this correct, Scott?

    Video Toaster appeared in 1990: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/03/a-history-of-the-amiga-part-9-the-video-toaster/

    "The Video Toaster was released in December 1990 for an entry-level price of $2,399. It consisted of a large expansion card that plugged into an Amiga 2000 and a set of programs on eight floppy disks. The complete package, including the Amiga, could be purchased for less than $5,000.

    For that money, an aspiring video editor received a four-input switcher, two 24-bit frame buffers, a chrominance keyer (for doing green or blue screen overlays), and an improved genlock."
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  5. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Yes, those first gen Avid products all used proxies, with semi-automated EDL conform at master playout. Semi being that you still had to load the tapes in the order they told you to.

    It wasn't until early-mid 90s that there were some compression algorithms that were good enough and PC storage & bandwidth was good enough, to allow true non-proxy editing (which is why we waited that long). For quite a while the drives had to be striped RAID arrays to be able to handle the bitrate for multi-track read/writes without hiccups.

    The video toaster would have been cool if you were already a pro and wanted to do some spec/demo work on the side, but IMO at that time, the quality was not up to pro standards for true broadcast end to end work.

    Scott
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  6. Member ArtAutDudeJR94B's Avatar
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    Wow this is awesome. How come I was able to get my 1996 PCI Card installed successfully on Windows 7 32-Bit via WDM installer?

    At least I can capture my stuff like the way I remember it in the late 90s and early 00s with PCI Cards. I hooked up my top loader VCR to a CCTV Monitor and those are connected to the PC where my card is in. Ironic it actually works with even capturing the Horizontal and Vertical holds somewhat close to the TV Monitor's display. Not silk smooth but it does it better than the 2005 PCI Card. Both the 96 and 05 cards are bloody ******* good if you ask me. And I couldn't be any happier without my 96 PCI Card, just does that 90s video capture look I want. But I will keep exploring for those early ass ones too.

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    Originally Posted by ArtAutDudeJR94B View Post
    Wow this is awesome. How come I was able to get my 1996 PCI Card installed successfully on Windows 7 32-Bit via WDM installer?
    Somebody else must have distributed WDM drivers for your card that are compatible with Windows 7 after Hauppauge stopped updating their driver package.
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  8. Member ArtAutDudeJR94B's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Originally Posted by ArtAutDudeJR94B View Post
    Wow this is awesome. How come I was able to get my 1996 PCI Card installed successfully on Windows 7 32-Bit via WDM installer?
    Somebody else must have distributed WDM drivers for your card that are compatible with Windows 7 after Hauppauge stopped updating their driver package.
    I agree. Hauppauge was a ****-all experience when it came to finding support or much for the Wincast. But the WinTV was easier on the other hand. Though both now can run and work on my PC. But I use the 96 PCI more now.
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    1994 - got a '486 Compaq Presario with a built in capture device. 120x80 at 10fps, 8 bit color AVI.

    1995 - [VideoSpigot for Windows] It was from CreativeLabs and $2-300. 15fps at 160x240, 8bit color, AVI! ISA. Yeah!

    1996 - Matrox Rainbow Runner. 15fps at 320x240, 16bit color, MJPEG. VESA WOW! Here's a screencap:
    Image
    [Attachment 69727 - Click to enlarge]
    .
    I'll post the video if someone tells me how to edit my name out of the metadata. It appears in Mediainfo.

    Here's the MediaInfo. It's dated 1998 because that's when I uploaded it my website. I had to reencode to RM (3MB!!!) because the the original file (which I sadly don't have) was too large. I think it was 70-80MB. I was praised for my video quality!

    General
    Complete name : E:\Images\Joey Wang\joey wang - websites\joey wang tsu hsien\joey wang tsu hsien (geocities)\video\wrkngcls.rm
    Format : RealMedia
    File size : 3.16 MiB
    Duration : 2 min 11 s
    Overall bit rate : 200 kb/s
    Movie name : Working Class
    Performer :
    Copyright : ©1998
    Comment : RealEncoder 5.1.0.32 Win95 4.0 1212 Pentium MMX 1 Live = 0 ac = 16 Kbps Voice - Wideband abw = 16.0 asi = 11025 abi = 8 abo = 16 ach = 1 vc = RealVideo (Standard) vbw = 184.0 opt = 1 qm = 1 es = 100

    Video
    ID : 1
    Format : RealVideo 1
    Codec ID : RV10
    Codec ID/Info : Based on H.263, Real Player 5
    Duration : 2 min 10 s
    Bit rate : 184 kb/s
    Width : 240 pixels
    Height : 176 pixels
    Display aspect ratio : 4:3
    Frame rate : 15.000 FPS
    Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.290
    Stream size : 2.86 MiB (91%)

    Audio
    ID : 0
    Format : ACELP
    Codec ID : sipr
    Codec ID/Info : Real Player 4
    Duration : 2 min 11 s
    Bit rate : 16.1 kb/s
    Channel(s) : 1 channel
    Sampling rate : 16.0 kHz
    Bit depth : 16 bits
    Stream size : 258 KiB (8%)
    Last edited by lingyi; 12th Mar 2023 at 03:01.
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  10. Member ArtAutDudeJR94B's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lingyi View Post
    1994 - got a '486 Compaq Presario with a built in capture device. 120x80 at 10fps, 8 bit color AVI.

    1995 - It was from CreativeLabs and $2-300. 15fps at 160x240, 8bit color, AVI! ISA. Yeah!

    1996 - Matrox Rainbow Runner. 15fps at 320x240, 16bit color, MJPEG. VESA WOW! Here's a screencap:
    Image
    [Attachment 69727 - Click to enlarge]
    .
    I'll post the video if someone tells me how to edit my name out of the metadata. It appears in Mediainfo.

    Here's the MediaInfo. It's dated 1998 because that's when I uploaded it my website. I had to reencode to RM (3MB!!!) because the the original file (which I sadly don't have) was too large. I think it was 70-80MB. I was praised for my video quality!

    General
    Complete name : E:\Images\Joey Wang\joey wang - websites\joey wang tsu hsien\joey wang tsu hsien (geocities)\video\wrkngcls.rm
    Format : RealMedia
    File size : 3.16 MiB
    Duration : 2 min 11 s
    Overall bit rate : 200 kb/s
    Movie name : Working Class
    Performer :
    Copyright : ©1998
    Comment : RealEncoder 5.1.0.32 Win95 4.0 1212 Pentium MMX 1 Live = 0 ac = 16 Kbps Voice - Wideband abw = 16.0 asi = 11025 abi = 8 abo = 16 ach = 1 vc = RealVideo (Standard) vbw = 184.0 opt = 1 qm = 1 es = 100

    Video
    ID : 1
    Format : RealVideo 1
    Codec ID : RV10
    Codec ID/Info : Based on H.263, Real Player 5
    Duration : 2 min 10 s
    Bit rate : 184 kb/s
    Width : 240 pixels
    Height : 176 pixels
    Display aspect ratio : 4:3
    Frame rate : 15.000 FPS
    Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.290
    Stream size : 2.86 MiB (91%)

    Audio
    ID : 0
    Format : ACELP
    Codec ID : sipr
    Codec ID/Info : Real Player 4
    Duration : 2 min 11 s
    Bit rate : 16.1 kb/s
    Channel(s) : 1 channel
    Sampling rate : 16.0 kHz
    Bit depth : 16 bits
    Stream size : 258 KiB (8%)
    I use DScaler with the De-interlace options as Even Scanlines Only alongside Greedy (High Motion)[which is better and looks as it is seen on a camcorder or monitor].

    Then I edit the tapes in VirtualDub deinterlacing them with interpolation and double framerate. Compress it with MPEG in AVI and Direct Stream Copy. I export it to AVI.

    Next I'm off to Tencoder where I convert it to MP4 custom wise to be dumped into my old Mac where I convert it a final time with HandBrake. It's a great software and can be used on a Mac. Tencoder also helped me with my PC captures being converted so I can dump them to flash drive and finalise them for good.

    And I usually have it set to high quality so I always convert to 720p (yeah I know, old format but I'm an old soul). I want to burn these converted captures to Blu-ray too. Will that spice up the look?
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  11. Member ArtAutDudeJR94B's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    They did not capture videotapes in the late 80s on ANY kind of computer, for consumers.
    Producers digitized analog tapes using pro hardware, and it went straight to digital tape*. Only at the very end of the 80s was there some kinds of compression (DVI aka digital video interactive, not to be confused with DVI "interface" cables and connection ports). It still was very inefficient, so medium high bitrate for crap quality. It wasn't until the 90s with Cinepak, and MJPEG and MPEG 1 (and later MPEG2), that capture started to become commonplace. Even Cinepak looked (and still looks) like crap, at 1Mbps. And don't try throwing more bitrate at it, it will crash.
    I worked at a video production/post-production company in the 90s, and it wasn't until ~95-96 that a NLE became viable as an option, and back then the ONLY decent pro one was AVID Media Composer, which used its own compression using propreitary encode & decode cards (yes they were separate), which often required a proprietary card extension housing to handle all the separate cards needed. Similarly, our ProTools DAW required ~10-12 cards, for all the input, output, timing, routing, and especially DSP. All of which is commonly done in software now (except for extra in/out needs).
    It wasn't until DV (97), and the popularity of VCDs (93 onward) and DVDs (97 onwards), that consumers started regularly capturing. So a card from 2003 or 2005 is still pretty early.


    Scott

    *early VFX/Mixing framestore hardware input & output uncompressed SD, had decently high internal bandwidth, but due to the state of memory at the time were limited to just a few seconds or minute of time, so only good for specialty stuff.

    All of this was $$$$. I remember specc'ing a ProTools system for myself back then and it was $78k. The AVID was more.


    Scott
    Were these pro hardware things called Digital Video Cassette Recorders?

    I did a gander on eBay and shan't I say, I might actually consider this as an option.

    Here's my eBay gendering I did
    https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=digital+video+cassette+recorder&_trksid=p2380057.m4084.l1313
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    Then I edit the tapes in VirtualDub deinterlacing them with interpolation and double framerate. Compress it with MPEG in AVI and Direct Stream Copy. I export it to AVI.

    Next I'm off to Tencoder where I convert it to MP4 custom wise to be dumped into my old Mac where I convert it a final time with HandBrake. It's a great software and can be used on a Mac.
    That process boggles my mind. Just export it to 720p H264 MP4 out of VDub2.
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  13. Member DB83's Avatar
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    Reading such a topic does make the memory cells flow (even if actual detail is less solid)Late 1990's and Matrox introduce in to the UK their early capture card and, yes, Mjpeg - can not remember whether this was the 'Rainbow Runner' or the 'Marvel' nor whether it was a single unit or more likely an add-on to a GPU since I did remove the add-on and gave the GPU to the firm I worked for. That was followed by the other Matrox which had a AGP connection.I really like that second card yet a PC upgrade with mb's no longer having AGP meant I had to say good-bye to it.XP ? I am sure the the OS was Win98 back then.That was followed by an AIW, which I could not get on with, and then a Hauppauge WinTV both running in XP. The WinTV is still 'resting' in it's PCI slot in my dual-boot X/Win7 system although it is no longer connected. And, as stated, since Hauppauge never supported the device beyond XP I had to seek out another capture device for Win7 which I still use to this day.Memories indeed.
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    Probably Win98 or maybe Win2000. I don't think there were ever properly working drivers for XP. I ran my Rainbow Runner on Win95.
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  15. Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    I was still a lurker here in 2005. People who were seriously into VHS capture back in 2005 used the ATI Radeon 9600 and 9800 series All-In-Wonder AGP cards and their proprietary software. These cards and their software definitely won't work on a modern computer. They require a PC with an AGP slot running Windows XP 32-bit.
    I was a "serious capper" back in 2002-2003 and had a pinnacle pctv DC10+ pci (8 bit, s-video in) that was totally decent on its raw output, i used to capture in Mjpeg, sadly we lacked hdd space at that time, had to make compromises with that damned divx codec (unwatchable now). Later on i bought a 10 bit card (Xcapture Pixelview Prolink Conexant CX23881) that was faboulous as far as colors, but unstable somehow, resold. Then found a terratec 250 pci (9 bit) which still work to this day.

    ** memories of a capper **

    By the way before the year 2000-2001 i knew very few people owning a computer, XP made big promises with it's entertainment capabilites and it did.
    Last edited by themaster1; 12th Mar 2023 at 08:08.
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    Originally Posted by ArtAutDudeJR94B View Post
    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Originally Posted by ArtAutDudeJR94B View Post
    Wow this is awesome. How come I was able to get my 1996 PCI Card installed successfully on Windows 7 32-Bit via WDM installer?
    Somebody else must have distributed WDM drivers for your card that are compatible with Windows 7 after Hauppauge stopped updating their driver package.
    I agree. Hauppauge was a ****-all experience when it came to finding support or much for the Wincast. But the WinTV was easier on the other hand. Though both now can run and work on my PC. But I use the 96 PCI more now.
    A lot of other hardware from other well-known companies did not get driver updates for Windows 7 and a lot of software never received a patch to make it compatible either. ... but to be fair, your Wincast/TV card was 13 years old when Windows 7 was released and had already been superseded by better Hauppage products, plus the transition to digital TV broadcasts was underway.
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  17. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    The digital recorders I was referring to, the ONLY ones available in the 80s, were D1 and D2. Here is the wiki link re D1:
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-1_(Sony).

    Let's just make it clear, you could not afford one then or now. I doubt any of us here can, individually. When it came out in '86, I remember it cost ~$250k!

    D1 is uncompressed component SD, D2 is uncompressed composite SD. D2 was much more affordable, it was only $80-120k!

    It really wasn't until Digital Betacam came out in mid 90s that prices started to come down, and DIGITAL pro quality was available at reasonable bitrates, because DigiBeta used ~3:1 DCT compression (don't remember if it was common DCT type or not).

    Again, for consumers, there really wasn't anything reasonable quality for digital video until DV and mpeg arrived on the scene, and in the early days of mpeg (both1 and 2) it required more computer horsepower than was available to most PCs, necessitating specialty cards. Which is why DV was so important. It wasn't until the 2000s that mpeg and other decent quality codecs became available to the masses.


    Scott
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 12th Mar 2023 at 14:37.
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    Ahhhh...memories. I had a CreativeLabs Reelmagic card to play MPEG-1 in the early 90's. https://ancientelectronics.wordpress.com/2016/09/19/reelmagic-mpeg1-decoder-card/ I had the full Reelmagic card, but I don't remember if I connected my CD drive to it.
    Last edited by lingyi; 12th Mar 2023 at 16:18.
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  19. aBigMeanie aedipuss's Avatar
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    LOL in the eighties we copied videotapes - vcr to vcr.
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