What TBC/Card to get?

[Fedex]

I have a family member going to the US so i figured they could bring some stuff over here.

TBCs are impossible to obtain in Argentina (as of writing this there is no listing in MercadoLibre (Argentina's version lf eBay) so i figured i'd ask my family member in the US to get some stuff from me (TBC and maybe a better capture card). Im a newbie to TBCs since my capture card has some kind of correction (Pinnacle Moviebox 710-USB).

So, we use both PAL-N and NTSC in Argentina so i was wondering if any frame TBC sold in the states supports both NTSC and PAL (can be PAL-B since i have a PAL-N to PAL-B transcoder) preferrably costing no more than 400-500 dollars.

Now for the card, what should i get that can support both PAL and NTSC that's better than my Pinnacle 710 USB? The pinnacle outputs raw YUY2 video but the image kinda freezes when it's unstable.

Thanks in advance

[Alwyn]

The pinnacle outputs raw YUY2 video but the image kinda freezes when it's unstable.

No it doesn't. The capture format is dependent on the capture software and codecs you have installed on your computer. The recommendation is to capture with Virtual Dub (although the 710-USB is very unreliable with VDub and Win 10) or AmarecTV. The normal lossless capture codecs are HUFFYUV and Lagarith. Lagarith is easier to install than HUFF. Both are available from the Software section.

Once the codec is installed, you then choose it in the appropriate section of VDub or AmarecTV and away you go. LAGS and HUFF are about 30-40gb per hour, whereas YUYY2 is uncompressed and over 100gb per hour (IIRC).

Re the TBCs, wait for Lordsmurf to comment; I'm sure he will be along soon!

[Fedex]

The pinnacle outputs raw YUY2 video but the image kinda freezes when it's unstable.

No it doesn't. The capture format is dependent on the capture software and codecs you have installed on your computer. The recommendation is to capture with Virtual Dub (although the 710-USB is very unreliable with VDub and Win 10) or AmarecTV. The normal lossless capture codecs are HUFFYUV and Lagarith. Lagarith is easier to install than HUFF. Both are available from the Software section

I meant the raw signal the capture card sends over USB. Both VDub and Amarec report the signal coming in to be a YUY2 stream. I always capture Lagarith or Huffyuv (mainly Lagarith)

[Fedex]

(although the 710-USB is very unreliable with VDub and Win 10) or AmarecTV.

That's why i installed Windows 7 on a separate hard drive dedicated tl just capturing.

By the way. I haven't gotten the audio input of the card to work anywhere but Pinnacle Studio 9 (studio 9 sucks at capturing I think it even deinterlaces to 25p without asking). I assume this has something to do with Pinnacle's drivers?

[Alwyn]

I meant the raw signal the capture card sends over USB. Both VDub and Amarec report the signal coming in to be a YUY2 stream.

I didn't know that. I'm not aware of any way to control the signal out of the digitisers. Out of interest, how can you tell it's getting YUY2?

The pinnacle outputs raw YUY2 video but the image kinda freezes when it's unstable.

Is this occurring during capture? If so, it could be either a dodgy signal from the VCR or a poor tape causing the glitchiness. TBC probably required; an el cheapo option is a Panasonic DVD recorder (eg ES-10, ES-15, for PAL, EH-57), used as a passthrough to stabilise the video stream. Of course, best is a VCR with a TBC (eg higher end JVCs) but those mentioned DVD recorders do d a great job with flagging/tearing/glitchy videotapes). Dedicated TBCs will be addressed by Lordsmurf, for sure; he may even be able to sell one to your friend.

I've always got audio from my 710-USB. I was using the 710-USB drivers from here (I haven't used it for a few months as I am now on a new computer):

http://cdn.pinnaclesys.com/SupportFiles/Hardware_Installer/readmeHW10.htm?utm_source=c...0f005a0a1c0e10

[oln]

The AVT-8710 and clones do support a bunch of systems including NTSC, standard PAL, PAL-M and PAL-N though unless you also have a VCR with TBC where the TBC works with the used system their utility is a bit limited since they don't do much to correct horizontal instability on their own. The right DVD-recorder is an option for NTSC but I don't know if there are any that work with PAL-N directly, whether they work with standard PAL depends on what variant it is - models sold in US/Canada are NTSC only while most Panasonics (and newer Pioneer/Sony) sold in Europe, Australia and at least support both NTSC and PAL - no idea about models in South America.

[Fedex]

I meant the raw signal the capture card sends over USB. Both VDub and Amarec report the signal coming in to be a YUY2 stream.

I didn't know that. I'm not aware of any way to control the signal out of the digitisers. Out of interest, how can you tell it's getting YUY2?

The pinnacle outputs raw YUY2 video but the image kinda freezes when it's unstable.

Is this occurring during capture? If so, it could be either a dodgy signal from the VCR or a poor tape causing the glitchiness. TBC probably required; an el cheapo option is a Panasonic DVD recorder (eg ES-10, ES-15, for PAL, EH-57), used as a passthrough to stabilise the video stream. Of course, best is a VCR with a TBC (eg higher end JVCs) but those mentioned DVD recorders do d a great job with flagging/tearing/glitchy videotapes). Dedicated TBCs will be addressed by Lordsmurf, for sure; he may even be able to sell one to your friend.

I've always got audio from my 710-USB. I was using the 710-USB drivers from here (I haven't used it for a few months as I am now on a new computer):

http://cdn.pinnaclesys.com/SupportFiles/Hardware_Installer/readmeHW10.htm?utm_source=c...0f005a0a1c0e10

I believe it's YUY2 because in VDub, for example, if you go to capture pin (or filter, i forgot which one it was) it says PAL 720×576i 25 YUY2 so i believe it's YUY2.

It appears during capture and preview. The tape i'm trying to capture is an old tape from 1991 of a crap VCR recording from OTA. The tape had mold (got it cleaned by a proffesional). When the spots that had mold before appear, i think, it produces some white noise bars. Sometimes it doesn't freeze, sometimes it freezes (drops some frames and picture jumps a bit).

My capture card has a composite video out that outputs an already processed signal (encoded and decoded back to composite all inside the capture card) and it does not freeze on those parts. I assume now this is something software related because Amarec drops a LOT less frames than VDub.

As for DVD Recorders they are super hard to find and Panasonics almost never appear in listing, price is very high and mostly they are NTDC units since many peole import them from the US because it's cheaper. I do have a Philips DVDR 3355 if it helps. It does help a bit but when the signal is too unstable (when it freezes on the capture card), the DVD Recorder shows an annoying OSD (you can't turn it off)

[Fedex]

The AVT-8710 and clones do support a bunch of systems including NTSC, standard PAL, PAL-M and PAL-N though unless you also have a VCR with TBC where the TBC works with the used system their utility is a bit limited since they don't do much to correct horizontal instability on their own. The right DVD-recorder is an option for NTSC but I don't know if there are any that work with PAL-N directly, whether they work with standard PAL depends on what variant it is - models sold in US/Canada are NTSC only while most Panasonics (and newer Pioneer/Sony) sold in Europe, Australia and at least support both NTSC and PAL - no idea about models in South America.

DVD Recorders here support PAL/NTSC too

[lingyi]

Thoroughly read and digest this post and others by lordsmurf: https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-restore/2251-tbc-time-base.html

Then contact him for his tested and proven TBCs: https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/marketplace/8243-sale-tbc-1000-a.html . Note that they're 2-3X your budget, but 1000% better than taking a chance online. A TBC isn't something you just walk into a store a buy!

Who is lordsmurf? A regular here and master of digitalfaq.com. And arguably THE Video Capture Guru. He doesn't just say "I think." He knows, as proven once again in this recent thread: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/409852-Anyone-know-the-year-on-who-was-made-the-DATAVIDEO-SE-500

I'll call him over before false info and leads start being posting.

lordsmurf, lordsmurf, lordsmurf! Oh...just in case..lordsmurf! LOL

[lordsmurf]

since my capture card has some kind of correction (Pinnacle Moviebox 710-USB).

That's not correct. Just a capture card. That model is variable, but can be good.

So, we use both PAL-N and NTSC in Argentina so i was wondering if any frame TBC sold in the states supports both NTSC and PAL (can be PAL-B since i have a PAL-N to PAL-B transcoder)

Yes.
In fact, some support PAL-N, and you can capture as PAL-N.

preferrably costing no more than 400-500 dollars.

Not going to happen.
Or you'll end up with a flawed model, a trap newbies fall into due to being too cheap.

Now for the card, what should i get that can support both PAL and NTSC that's better than my Pinnacle 710 USB?
but the image kinda freezes when it's unstable.

Eh, maybe, assuming that card is good version. It depends on factors.
But the major issue here should be resolved with TBCs in use.

(although the 710-USB is very unreliable with VDub and Win 10) or AmarecTV.

Win10 and AmaRecTV are the issues there, not VirtualDub, and not the capture card.

Re the TBCs, wait for Lordsmurf to comment; I'm sure he will be along soon!

I need to dig out that Mighty Mouse image again. "Here I come to save the day!"

Pinnacle Studio 9 (studio 9 sucks at capturing I think it even deinterlaces to 25p without asking). I assume this has something to do with Pinnacle's drivers?

It's just an awful program.
(I've been looking at the new Pinnacle 25 as a budget editor, but still would never suggest it for capturing. NLEs al suck at capture, be it Premiere or Final Cut, or whatever.)

dodgy signal from the VCR or a poor tape causing the glitchiness. TBC probably required;

Yep.

an el cheapo option is a Panasonic DVD recorder (eg ES-10, ES-15, for PAL, EH-57), used as a passthrough to stabilise the video stream. Of course, best is a VCR with a TBC (eg higher end JVCs) but those mentioned DVD recorders do d a great job with flagging/tearing/glitchy videotapes). Dedicated TBCs will be addressed by Lordsmurf, for sure; he may even be able to sell one to your friend.

ES10/15 is just line TBC, with non-TBC frame sync. It does nothing for signal issues. While there are times that you can try to cheat (and pray), this isn't one of those times. Based on everything stated, he definitely needs an actual TBC. In fact, depending on VCR, assuming available in proper PAL spec needed here, ES10/15 probably ideal, in addition to actual frame TBC.

I've always got audio from my 710-USB. I was using the 710-USB drivers from here (I haven't used it for a few months as I am now on a new computer):

As I've stated before, there are version. "No audio" can be a symptom of bad versions, but it depends on factors. So a new capture card should be considered.

The AVT-8710 and clones

But you must be careful not to get a flawed version. Cheap units are usually flawed, but I've seen some eBay auctions where idiots bid up the price of flawed models towards greens (nothing greens have caveats as well, and some shyster sellers are now swapping boards).

The right DVD-recorder is an option for NTSC but I don't know if there are any that work with PAL-N directly, whether they work with standard PAL depends on what variant it is - models sold in US/Canada are NTSC only while most Panasonics (and newer Pioneer/Sony) sold in Europe, Australia and at least support both NTSC and PAL - no idea about models in South America.

This is my concern as well. PAL-N with line TBC is not an easy task, not sure if even possible off-hand.

I assume now this is something software related because Amarec drops a LOT less frames than VDub.

I went over this in a long post a while back. AmaRecTV isn't doing anything magic, but slight-of-hand in regards to dropped frames. It's essentially an analog version screen recorder for video games, not too different from OBS in that regard (where OBS is digital source screen recorder). There is nothing special it can do vs. VirtualDub. Both will drop, in the same places, on the same sources. But a key variable is proper settings on both.

I do have a Philips DVDR 3355 if it helps

Does not help. Those were great for recording analog cable/antenna and ATSC, but worthless for videotape sources.

lordsmurf, lordsmurf, lordsmurf! Oh...just in case..lordsmurf! LOL

The "rule of Sheldon" states that it must be in 3s!

[lollo]

I went over this in a long post a while back. AmaRecTV isn't doing anything magic, but slight-of-hand in regards to dropped frames. It's essentially an analog version screen recorder for video games, not too different from OBS in that regard (where OBS is digital source screen recorder). There is nothing special it can do vs. VirtualDub. Both will drop, in the same places, on the same sources. But a key variable is proper settings on both.

Bullshit. AmarecTV is an excellent program for capturing, often better than VirtualDub with modern cards with integrated audo/video capture.

The full thread dismantling your lies here: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/409444-Logilink-USB-Video-Audio-Grabber-%28VG0029%29

[Fedex]

What's weird is that the video out on my card (processed signal and reconverted into composite video) doesn't drop as much frames as capturing in Amarec or VDub

[lordsmurf]

Bullshit.

Let's not sidetrack another thread from the main topic.

[lollo]

No wish to sidetrack anything. Just giving the correct information to OP and other readers

[lordsmurf]

Just giving the correct information to OP and other readers

That is your opinion, and it's not aligned with my fact checking, nor real-world usage. And I'm not the only one. Your constant crusade against VirtualDub, because your hardware had issues, or you had wrong settings, is somewhat ridiculous now. You found a workaround, and I'm glad it works for you, but it's not flawless, not magic. Y

Again, this is a side topic that doesn't need to be revisited in every thread.

[lollo]

Your constant crusade against VirtualDub

I have nothing against VirtualDub. It is an excellent capture software, as I always said. Fact is that AmarecTV is no magic, but is better with modern cards and modern OS to keep a/v synch, as testified by many many many users.

Again, this is a side topic that doesn't need to be revisited in every thread.

What should not be revisited in any thread are your lies and bullshit against AmarecTV. The OP said he experienced less drop frames with AmarecTV compared to VirtualDub, which can be true/false/side effect/who knows what. And you immediately replied with your false statements based on nothing. Then I had to correct you.

Let's keep going to help OP...

[lordsmurf]

What's weird is that the video out on my card (processed signal and reconverted into composite video) doesn't drop as much frames as capturing in Amarec or VDub

That's because both will act the same. Assuming both are set correctly, the determining factor for drops is not the software, but the hardware and signal.

However, what you're referring to here is double conversion. In that situation, errors get baked in, or partially baked in. Errors can still pass, which is why you still get some drops, also why ES10/15 isn't a true TBC, and still passes errors that results in drops and errors (hence why ES10/15 should always be chased with frame TBC, or at very least weak frame TBC).

Then I had to correct you.

No correction occurred. Drops, sync, etc -- that's almost always settings in this exact conversation. In some cases, there are oddities in AmaRecTV that are easily explained by what it is, what it was made to do -- and it was not intended to capture videotapes.

[lollo]

. In some cases, there are oddities in AmaRecTV that are easily explained by what it is, what it was made to do -- and it was not intended to capture videotapes.

You continue to spread your bullshit without any evidence. Once more, stop and stay in topic, OP did not ask about AmarecTV.

[lordsmurf]

bullshit

Disagreeing is fine.
Continuously being an ass is not.

OP did not ask about AmarecTV.

It was in the replies, and later address by the OP himself.

[lollo]

Logical fallacy 101. Repeating something doesn't make it true.

Logical fallacy 101. Repeating your bullshit doesn't make it true. No evidence on what you say. Many facts and evidences on what I say. Simple as that.

I'll stop now replying your non-sense, otherwise the topic will be locked by the administrators. But I will always be there any time you'll spread your bullshit without evidences.

edit: do not edit your posts, otherwise the sense of the replies will be lost

[lordsmurf]

edit: do not edit your posts, otherwise the sense of the replies will be lost

I decided not to feed the troll. Waste of my time.

[dellsam34]

Would you two guys knock it off? This does not look good for the forum.

[lordsmurf]

Would you two guys knock it off? This does not look good for the forum.

Seriously?
That comment reminds me of grade school. A kid walks up, punches you for whatever reason, and the teacher sends both of you to the principal. But only one kid was the troublemaker.

[Alwyn]

Would you two guys knock it off? This does not look good for the forum.

Agree. People can disagree and if it gets silly then the mods can lock the topic, but when the swearing starts, the swearer should be banned.

[Fedex]

Oh god what have i started...

[lordsmurf]

Oh god what have i started...

No idea. We can shelve discussion of the capture software, it's a sideshow to the main topic here anyway.

Let's go back to the TBC discussion. Now, were where we ... ah yes ... PAL-N, Cypress, Panasonic ES10/15, Philips recorders. Skip back to my long reply, answer anything asked, add commentary needed.