Editing XAVC-S Video files

[glenpinn]

Hi everyone, well time is fast approaching for my eventual upgrade to a 4k video camera, so far my camera of choice is the Panasonic DVX200, shoots 4k/50p XAVC-S @ 150Mbps, and 1080/50p ALL-Intra @ 200Mbps.

So, my VRD Pro editing software currently only supports importing and editing of of XAVC-S and Pro-Res 4k Video, but it can only output to 4k mp4, or downscale to 1080p mp4.

I want to stick with VRD for my editing work, however editing the XAVC-S files on the timeline is painfully slow work compared to 1080p editing, especially using the advance buttons or using the slider to find my cut points, although i should point out that during this process, the load on my CPU is only around 15%, so it is not maxing out.

I was thinking that to avoid this slow editing process, would i be better off changing the XAVC-S into a much less demanding format for the editing side, before outputting it to my final playback formats.

Doing this will unfortunately require me to find an alternative editing tool, which i would rather not have to do, but if i had to, i will.

As a long shot, i did convert a 4k 95Mbps XAVC-S file to 4k mp4 using VRD, which did it at 95Mbps, and then import that to edit thinking it may make the editing easier, but it didnt.

I also have a friend who is also moving to a new 4k cam, and will also need to find the best way to deal with these XAVC-S files for editing.

I was going to upgrade to a new Intel i7 6 core system, but because my 3770 Cpu is not being stressed when editing these big 4k XAVC-S files, i really didn't see the point yet.

Cheers

Oh, btw, i have 16gb of ram in my current system, but the Developers at VRD say that VRD can only utilize up to 3gb of ram, so could this be what is dragging my 4k editing time down, as it really is very slow and laggy work.

[racer-x]

Oh, btw, i have 16gb of ram in my current system, but the Developers at VRD say that VRD can only utilize up to 3gb of ram, so could this be what is dragging my 4k editing time down, as it really is very slow and laggy work.

Yes, I believe that is your problem. As for editing, you can use a new NLE that supports it. A good free one is Aviutl or just use Virtualdub with the latest ffmpeg input driver if you want easy.

[glenpinn]

Oh, btw, i have 16gb of ram in my current system, but the Developers at VRD say that VRD can only utilize up to 3gb of ram, so could this be what is dragging my 4k editing time down, as it really is very slow and laggy work.

Yes, I believe that is your problem. As for editing, you can use a new NLE that supports it. A good free one is Aviutl or just use Virtualdub with the latest ffmpeg input driver if you want easy.

Thanks, i meant to say in my first post that my CPU usage during the 4k edits on the timeline ranges between 15 and 30% with my system memory going from 15% to 25%.

I have also emailed the Devs at VRD to ask if the 3gb ram limit will cause the slowness of 4k editing on the time line, but i know these guys have not got a lot of experience with 4k as yet, they are just introducing basic support for 2 of the more common recording formats.

Apparently VRD is built on 32bit not 64bit, hence the 3gb ram limit, least that is what i believe they told me some time ago.

I am not familiar with Virtualdub, might give AviUT a go first.

[pippas]

Trying to edit a 'raw' 4K timeline stream on a 32 bit machine is going to be tough.. hence your experience with VRD. I find converting to an intermediate format makes life much easier. I use Grass Valley HQX... bur there are several others equally as good ... Cineform - Avid DNxHD - Apples Pro-res and of course the free AviUtl codecs that racer-x mentioned.

Once converted to one of these intermediate formats, the files are much easier to work with on the timeline - even with a 32 bit machine!

I use Virtualdub to work with my HQX files, to make the initial cuts, and then run an Avisynth script in Virtualdub to add the fades, dissolves and titles etc..

It is a bit of a challenge to export your final x.264 encoded output file from the Vdub timeline, using an i5 32 bit machine with only 4GB of RAM, but it is possible, and the final edited 4K files look pretty good, when encoded at a similar bit rate to the original....

Next thing to try to create a 4K edited output file, using the new x.265 codec..... but that may be a bit more of a challenge, just using a 32 bit computer!

[glenpinn]

Hi Pippas, my computer is a 3770 cpu with 16gb ram, and windows 8.1 64bit.

I believe VRD is based on 32bit, hence the 3gb ram limit, so i am awaiting their reply about this so i can bring the info back in her.

I have trouble getting my head around Virtualdub, i downloaded it, and put the ffmpeg input driver download into the virtualdub folder, then loaded up a 4k file and because my screen is only 1080p, virtualdub only displays 1/4 of the video frame, it doesnt give me the whole frame, where VRD preview screen does.

I downloaded that AviUTl software but cant seem to find the correct plugin to convert it from japanese to english.

I already have Grass Vally for HQX but have not yet tried it.

How do i go about converting to Ciniform, Avid DNxHD or ProRes, as VRD will import ProRes and XAVC-S for editing, and i have the x264 encoder unlocked in my VRD Pro version to do my final conversions to playable formats.

Cheers

[racer-x]

In Virtualdub, right-click on the screen and choose 25%. That should display the full frame. You export to any intermediate codec you have installed using Virtualdub. Click Video > Compression, then select your codec. Then click File > Save as AVI.

[poisondeathray]

What is "dreadfully slow" ? It should be slower when navigating, like a small hesitation compared to HD or lower, but I wouldn't call it "dreadfully slow" . Do you remember when AVC first came out, or HD first came out. That was "dreadfully slow" compared to intra SD formats like SD when editing with single core computers

AVIUtl is 32bit too, so is the stable Vdub version. If ram was the main issue, they would be affected too .

Look at the videoredo ram usage - it's not above 1GB when I have a UHD long GOP AVC stream loaded

UHD has 4x the number of pixels as HD, so it's going to "feel" slower in any program. It won't be "snappy" like editing SD .

No, videoredo won't be able to handle the intermediate editing formats like HQX, Prores, Cineform etc...

[racer-x]

Another alternative is to use XMediaRecode (free). It is based on ffmpeg. You can make lossless cuts on keyframes and export without conversion. It can also export to Proress as well as DNxHD if you want.

[glenpinn]

What is "dreadfully slow"

Well exactly as you described it, very laggy, and yes, as i said, it is slow on navigation, more so going backwards that forwards using the 3 back buttons.

I will try out some of the ideas mentioned by you guys and see what i can come up with.

And Vrd will only import 4k ProRes and XAVC-S, but can only output to the usual HD formats such as mp4, mkv, mts etc

[pippas]

I have trouble getting my head around Virtualdub, i downloaded it, and put the ffmpeg input driver download into the virtualdub folder, then loaded up a 4k file and because my screen is only 1080p, virtualdub only displays 1/4 of the video frame, it doesnt give me the whole frame, where VRD preview screen does.

I don't use the ffmpeg input driver with Virtualdub. I convert the raw files into HQX first, using the Grass Valley converter utility (you can find a download for that HERE )
You can then import those HQX files straight into Virtualdub, as an intraframe vfw input. You can preview the whole image by following the instructions from racer-x in post #6.

This file is then much easier to edit. There will probably be some small degree of 'lag' when you scrub the timeline, but not very much. And of course because every frame is now a keyframe you can cut with frame accuracy anywhere, without relying on 'smart rendering'.

[racer-x]

Have a read through this thread: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/368684-Editing-4k-HEVC-footage-(Samsung-NX1)

It involves editing 4k HEVC footage which is significantly harder than 4k AVC. In post #8, I attached a video screen recording where i edited the native 4k HEVC footage in Aviutl on my i7 4790 with 12 GB RAM. You can see it goes quite smoothly.

I also provided original 4k HEVC samples in post #1 if you want to test them out.

As far as 4k AVC goes, I consider it quite easy to edit. My Vegas pro 10 has no trouble editing 4k AVC.

[glenpinn]

I already have a few review videos for that camera from Youtube, it will not be very well supported, and i think it is too expensive, $3000+ here in australia, and their lenses are not brilliant, but i am not sure if the camera can use other lenses tho.

As far as converting a 75Mbps 4k XAVC-S to HQX, i did one in Virtualdub with the ffmpeg input driver, it came out at 191Mbps, and i used Grass Valley and it came out at 179Mbps, both had the same audio.

Grass Valley was quicker at converting tho.

Also, the original audio was AAC, 48.0KHz, 320kbps, should this new audio be like that.

[smrpix]

With your xavc-s material have you tried sony's own solution: catalyst browse? You can change the viewing quality for more responsive handling while trimming.

[poisondeathray]

You won't get AAC audio in AVI container because it's not an officially supported format in AVI.

There are "hacks" to force it in, but very few programs can read it, and you will get a bunch of compatibility issues

Converting it to an "editing format" defeats the purpose of "smart rendering" . You might convert it if you were doing more complex editing tasks, not just simple edits and cuts like videoredo does

[glenpinn]

With XAVC-S files i am thinking that it may well be best to just continue with VRD Pro given my edits are just plain cut and joins, plus adding titles and credits, and sometimes add a very short black 10 frame transition between main scene changes like i did with my car show video.

It is slow, but at least i know VRD inside out, and for the most part i am going to downscale the 4k video to 1080p mp4 for playback support on HD tv anyway, nobody i know has a 4k tv and i probably won't be getting one for quite a long time yet.

I have done quite a few 100Mbps 4k XAVC-S to 1080p mp4 using the unlocked x264 encoder in VRD, which outputs them to around 25Mbps, and they look very nice.

Edit: regarding the slowness of the 4k editing on my timeline in VRD Pro, well i was told to disable the Thumbnails (individual frames) in my settings, and the navigation will be a lot faster, and it is, a lot faster in fact, but still a bit slower than 1080 editing.

VRD has 3 forward and 3 back navigation buttons, and with 1080p editing, i have the thumbnail frames turned on, with my progress buttons set to 1 second, 10 seconds and 30 seconds, if i need to progress under 1 second i just click on the frames in the timeline to get to the exact cut point, and it works very well.

I figure that now i am going to be editing 4k, i may as well disable the thumbnail frames, and set the first navigation button to 0 seconds, which will navigate frame by frame, making editing a lot faster, just take a while to get used to no thumbs.

[MaverickTse]

actually a lot of people forget about the performance of RAM...
each frame of a 4k video contains a lot of data(~4X of HD video) that has to be transferred from HDD/SSD to RAM, even without adding any effect on it.
More RAM may not help since it only allows more cache, but the slowness of memcpy() remains(and this has little to do with 32/64bit or 3GB limit matter).

So consider:
1) SSD or RAID storage
2) get a better performing RAM, if motherboard supports
3) overclocking, or enabling RAM's XMP profile if it has one.

[glenpinn]

Hi, i am not an expert with ram, but in my case i fixed the slowness issue with my VRD Pro, although i had to disable the Thumbnails (frame by frame) in my settings, and re-set one of the navigation buttons to work in frame by frame mode.

Seems to work, just need to work slightly differently without frames in my timeline.

[TreeTops]

In Vegas Movie Studio, there is an option to show No thumbs or Head or Head Tail or Head Center Tail. Is that option available in your software?

[glenpinn]

In Vegas Movie Studio, there is an option to show No thumbs or Head or Head Tail or Head Center Tail. Is that option available in your software?

No, we just have Thumbnails or No Thumbnails, but we can make them big, medium or small, but changing the size doesn't alter the speed of the navigation, only disabling thumbs makes it a lot faster.

With 1080p editing Thumbnails is no problem, fast and snappy, slowly getting used to having them disabled for 4k.

I considered finding alternative software if 4k editing would be faster, but then i would be giving up the very software that does everything i need it to do for the work that i do, and have to learn something new all over again.

Cheers.