Is this an interlacing issue?

[bvdd]

I've read several threads on this but it's still confusing to me.

This frame is from a burned DVD of an AVI file I made. I originally captured some of the clips from my Sony camera into WinDV, and some of them are from an old DVD that I ripped. The finished 2 hour AVI does not have these artifacts when played on my PC with VLC.

But 2 different brands of DVD+R discs came out like this when I burned them with Nero 7. I tried the disc on a DVD player and analog TV, as well as on my PC with VLC - same thing.



And here's what Mediainfo says about the movie on my hard drive (not the DVD):



Obviously, it's happening during the burn process. If I understand correctly, depending on the TV/DVD player that plays the final DVD,
the artifacts may or may not be there. But I can't trust that as this is a huge family history project/gift for more than a dozen people.

So what are my options to fix this?

Thanks all.

[smrpix]

Those artifacts are indicative of interlaced video improperly resized. Where did that avi come from and what are your DVD output settings? How does it look when played in a standalone DVD player? (It has nothing to do with the burn process.)

[bvdd]

I originally captured some of the clips from my Sony camera into WinDV, and some of them are from an old DVD that I ripped.

I assembled all the clips in VDub and made one large AVI.

I tried the disc on a standalone DVD player and analog TV - same result.

What do you mean by 'DVD output settings'?

[smrpix]

First, 24 fps is not DVD spec. Neither is 640x480, so your authoring program is changing both the framerate and the size.

If you captured using WinDV you almost certainly captured at 29.97 fps at 720x480 before messing it up in VirtualDub where you threw away about 20% of your interlaced frames and made the result progressive. When Nero tried to convert back to 720x480 29.97 interlaced (DVD spec,) these are the artifacts it produced.

When I asked about DVD output settings I was wondering if there was a PAL>NTSC issue happening somewhere, but that seems unlikely.

[bvdd]

First, 24 fps is not DVD spec. Neither is 640x480, so your authoring program is changing both the framerate and the size.

If you captured using WinDV you almost certainly captured at 29.97 fps at 720x480 before messing it up in VirtualDub where you threw away about 20% of your interlaced frames and made the result progressive. When Nero tried to convert back to 720x480 29.97 interlaced (DVD spec,) these are the artifacts it produced.

When I asked about DVD output settings I was wondering if there was a PAL>NTSC issue happening somewhere, but that seems unlikely.

Thanks, I'm trying to follow you here, but I understand very little of what you're saying.

So do I need to do something different in VDub or Nero?

[smrpix]

Probably VDub. Your mediainfo shows that material that would have been captured in WinDV at 720x480 29.97fps interlaced has been converted to 640x480 24fps progressive. That doesn't happen accidentally. You must have applied some filters.

So Nero is re-converting a messed-up file. I'm not a big fan of Nero, but I don't think it's to blame in this case.

[bvdd]

Probably VDub. Your mediainfo shows that material that would have been captured in WinDV at 720x480 29.97fps interlaced has been converted to 640x480 24fps progressive. That doesn't happen accidentally. You must have applied some filters.

So Nero is re-converting a messed-up file. I'm not a big fan of Nero, but I don't think it's to blame in this case.

Yes, I applied filters on about 6-8 clips but not the rest. There were about 40 different clips total.

So if you're right, filters applied on just several clips messed up the entire finished AVI file?

Is this AVI file fixable or do I have to start all over again?

[manono]

Is this AVI file fixable or do I have to start all over again?

Since it was improperly resized and nothing can fix it, you'll have to begin again.

There's a chance that if each of the original files is it's own chapter in the DVD, you can redo just the screwed up ones and replace them into the DVD without doing anything with the rest. But I doubt that's true, from the sound of it.

[bvdd]

Is this AVI file fixable or do I have to start all over again?

Since it was improperly resized and nothing can fix it, you'll have to begin again.

There's a chance that if each of the original files is it's own chapter in the DVD, you can redo just the screwed up ones and replace them into the DVD without doing anything with the rest. But I doubt that's true, from the sound of it.

Ok, thanks.

So exactly what do I do differently and watch out for next time? All the clips I used are still separate AVI files. If I check each one,
what am I looking for that tells me there's an issue - and how do I fix it?

Thanks for your time.

[davexnet]

Can you post 10 seconds of your finished avi showing some movement?

[bvdd]

Can you post 10 seconds of your finished avi showing some movement?

You mean the AVI on the hard drive - not the DVD - yes?

[bvdd]

Can you post 10 seconds of your finished avi showing some movement?

https://youtu.be/X5OEwjXkAQ8

[manono]

Right, the source AVI - one that got screwed up after being converted for DVD. Just resizing from 640x480 to 720x480 shouldn't be the cause. Some vertical resizing must have been done to make deinterlacing it impossible. 10 seconds with movement will be plenty.

And not from YouTube. It's already screwed up. If your AVI source is like that already, then the whole thing is hopeless. And why is that YouTube clip 24fps? Interlaced video isn't created at 24fps. Some major and very bad things were done to that video.

[bvdd]

And not from YouTube. It's already screwed up. If your AVI source is like that already, then the whole thing is hopeless. And why is that YouTube clip 24fps? Interlaced video isn't created at 24fps. Some major and very bad things were done to that video.

The complete AVI file looks and plays fine on my PC, considering I did the best I could and I'm up against the clock with this project.
It's certainly better than that mp4 clip I posted.

Are you saying it's the burn process that will never be right? I don't understand the 'major/bad things' I apparently did.
I basically didn't change anything except the speed, sharpness, and flickering of several clips. Most of them I left as is.

I used AVISynth scripts and info I got from this forum.

There is no sign of anything wrong when I play the whole AVI file - shouldn't that be screwed up too?

[bvdd]

So Nero is re-converting a messed-up file. I'm not a big fan of Nero, but I don't think it's to blame in this case.

If the file is messed up, why does it play perfectly on my hard drive with VLC ?

[manono]

Are you saying it's the burn process that will never be right?

The 'burn' process? Burning is burning to disc which has nothing to do with encoding/converting/making DVDs. If your AVI was uploaded to YouTube as-is, then it did not look and play fine on your PC. If it really did look and play fine on your PC, then you did more than 'change the speed, sharpness, and flickering of several clips'. Have we seen the AVI before you did anything to it yet?

I don't understand the 'major/bad things' I apparently did.

You (or someone somehow) resized it vertically and you improperly changed the framerate from (probably) 29.97fps to 23.976fps. In the process you ruined it beyond redemption. Unless you have your source still available.

[jagabo]

I don't understand the 'major/bad things' I apparently did.

The major bad thing has already been described: you vertically resized interlaced video using a progressive resizing filter. But since you won't upload a sample of your source, the intermediate file you created with VirtualDub, and a sample of the VOB file produced by Nero, nobody can say where or why the problem happened.

[bvdd]

Are you saying it's the burn process that will never be right?

The 'burn' process? Burning is burning to disc which has nothing to do with encoding/converting/making DVDs. If your AVI was uploaded to YouTube as-is, then it did not look and play fine on your PC. If it really did look and play fine on your PC, then you did more than 'change the speed, sharpness, and flickering of several clips'. Have we seen the AVI before you did anything to it yet?

I don't understand the 'major/bad things' I apparently did.

You (or someone somehow) resized it vertically and you improperly changed the framerate from (probably) 29.97fps to 23.976fps. In the process you ruined it beyond redemption. Unless you have your source still available.

"Burning has nothing to do with encoding/converting/making DVDs." I Got it.

The final 2 hour AVI file that I'm trying to burn absolutely plays fine on my PC, and every individual clip that makes up that
large AVI file also plays fine without issue. Yes, I changed the framerate on several clips (that's what I'm calling 'speed') and
they play fine as well.

The file I uploaded to Youtube was an mp4 made from the AVI. I will upload the AVI clip without converting it.

[Cornucopia]

Don't upload it to YT, that will just muddy the waters further. Upload it here.

Scott

[bvdd]

Ok, here's the AVI file - 10 sec. taken from the final 2 hour movie, using VDub "Direct Stream Copy".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAY1Nehu4qo

[jagabo]

How many times do you have to be told not to upload to Youtube? Youtube processes and reencodes everything you upload so we can't tell what problems were caused by Youtube and what problems were in the video you uploaded. Use the "Upload files/Manage attachments" button below the edit boxes here to upload the video to this site.

[bvdd]

Ok, I'll try to upload it here.

[bvdd]

How many times do you have to be told not to upload to Youtube? Youtube processes and reencodes everything you upload so we can't tell what problems were caused by Youtube and what problems were in the video you uploaded. Use the "Upload files/Manage attachments" button below the edit boxes here to upload the video to this site.

I uploaded that second time BEFORE I saw the next post, Ok?

I appreciate everyone's help but there's no need to bitch me out.

[jagabo]

That AVI file is already messed up. The two fields (each frame of interlaced video contains two separate half pictures called fields) are partially mixed together. Given the largish black borders at the top and bottom of the frame you likely resized the video without accounting for the fact that it's interlaced.

And since it's encoded with huffyuv nero had no way of knowing whether the video was interlaced or progressive.

Open your video in VirtualDub and apply the Bob Doubler filter. You'll see artifacts exactly like those in your first post.

[bvdd]

That AVI file is already messed up. The two fields (each frame of interlaced video contains two separate half pictures called fields) are partially mixed together. Given the largish black borders at the top and bottom of the frame you likely resized the video without accounting for the fact that it's interlaced.

And since it's encoded with huffyuv nero had no way of knowing whether the video was interlaced or progressive.

Open your video in VirtualDub and apply the Bob Doubler filter. You'll see artifacts exactly like those in your first post.

Ok, I did that and you were right.

So what are my options other than watching the AVI on a PC? If I go back and check each individual clip, what am I looking for to
know if it's ok or messed up?

[jagabo]

Interlaced is the native format for standard definition NTSC video. It is fully supported by DVD and TVs. You just need to be careful when working with it. Look at one of your original clips in VirtualDub. You'll see comb artifacts whenever there is motion. That's because all the even numbered scan lines contain one picture and all the odd numbered scanlines contain another. You need to be sure you don't do anything that allows information from the even scan lines to bleed into the odd scanlines, and vice versa. Many filters in VirtualDub have interlaced options. But many don't. For the latter you can use VirtualDub's deinterlace filter in "Unfold fields side by side", do your filtering, then use the deinterlace filter in "Fold side by side fields together" mode to restore the interlacing. That's not best way to deal with interlaced video but it will keep the two fields from commingling. And be sure to use a codec that supports interlaced video when saving.

When you import an interlaced video from VirtualDub into a later editor/encoder make sure the program understands the video is interlaced -- so it can handle it properly. Huffyuv can handle interlaced video but has no way of informing the downstream software it is interlaced. I don't use Nero but most editors allow you to specify a source's properties when importing. Often you right click on the video in the assets panel or in the time line and select Source Properties or something like that.

[Cornucopia]

To do it all the right way, you need to use an NLE that properly accounts for DV compression, aspect ratio, NTSC dv colorspace (YUV 4:1:1), and interlacing. Vdub CAN do that, but only if you know what you're doing and set it up properly (and output it properly). You didn't.

To me, it makes the most sense to go back to the drawing board.

Assuming your "sony camera" is standard DV (not AVCHD, MPEG2 or some other system), your WinDV recording (***DV.AVI file) should still be OK, as WinDV just does a simple data transfer of the already-recorded-onto-tape DV stream, via the Firewire, to the PC and saved as a DV.AVI type file.
As you're in NTSC-land, it ought to be 720x480@29.97fps, usually 4:3 display aspect ratio.

Upload clip of that (to HERE). If it's too large, there are ways (direct stream copy) that will retain its original shape, size, colorspace, interlacing & codec in Vdub. So you could do simple trimming and give us a ~10sec segment (of another DV.AVI type file).

If that clip looks ok, then it's a matter of CORRECTLY using Vdub (or other NLE) to edit & create your master clip (jagabo just mentioned some of those ways). My personal strong recommendation, however, is to use a proper full-featured NLE if you are doing anything beyond simple concatenation of a >=dozen clips or top&tails trimming.

Next...what are you trying to end up with? a DVD? Well, since NTSC DVDs use the same 720x480@29.97 (optionally interlaced) system, it's clear that if you wanted a DVD, you wouldn't want to change anything about the resolution, aspect ratio, framerate, or interlacing. The ONLY thing you want to change is to properly encode it (if starting with interlacing, then to maintain interlacing throughout) to MPEG2 with YUV4:2:0 colorspace, and at the proper bitrates (and Vbuffer & GOP structure) to support DVD capabilities. Using HCEnc and using a "NTSC DVD-compatible" interlaced preset should do that for you.

Then you just author & burn. I do NOT suggest Nero, but cannot specifically fault it in this scenario. There ARE better apps for these 2 things, including free ones, incl. DVDFlick, DVDAuthorGUI. And for burning, you cannot go wrong with ImgBurn (unless you were already starting off wrong, or not paying attention).

Scott

[bvdd]

What I still don't understand is, if the AVI file is so messed up, why does it play perfectly on my hard drive in every player I try?

Thank you everyone for your help, I have much to learn.

[jagabo]

What I still don't understand is, if the AVI file is so messed up, why does it play perfectly on my hard drive in every player I try?

It doesn't. You're just not noticing it. Pause the video while playing and you'll see comb artifacts.

[bvdd]

What I still don't understand is, if the AVI file is so messed up, why does it play perfectly on my hard drive in every player I try?

It doesn't. You're just not noticing it. Pause the video while playing and you'll see comb artifacts.

The single frame I first posted clearly shows the artifacts. When I run the DVD I burned, the entire movie looks exactly like that frame.

When I run the AVI file there are NO artifacts, NO weird lines, nothing. It is clear and smooth.

If those same artifacts are really there in the AVI, why does the DVD looks so different?

When I get home tonight I'll run the file and pause it as you suggest - just to see.