PAL To NTSC - Decimate Or Not?

[TheLastOfThem]

Hi

I have a 25fps foreign video file - and I have english NTSC DVD audio also. These audio only seem to match their 24p counterpart - but I would like to just soft-flag PAL dvds that I'm encoding with a 23.976fps header - but I noticed I usually have to slow the tempo down from NTSC dvds because the 25fps - 23.976 softflag runtime does NOT match the NTSC runtime audio (its always off by about 4%)

I want to keep it authentic but I feel I messed up too much already doing soft-flags and taking DVD NTSC audio and just slowing the tempo. Because otherwise they do not match the 25fps > 23.976 fps PAL videos. (Taking PAL video and adding English NTSC audio). I have had instances where TDecimate did not work correctly at all even when done supposedly right

[hello_hello]

Was the 25fps foreign video originally film (24fps) or did it start off life as PAL (25fps)? I ask because....

Most "film" is sped up from 24fps to 25fps for PAL, so to restore the original "film" it should be just a matter of slowing the frame rate to 23.976fps (for NTSC). No decimation required. The NTSC audio should then match. In fact the idea of TDecimate is to change the number of frames without changing the duration, so if you somehow decimate 25fps to 23.976fps the duration should still be the same. Probably explaining why it's still off by about 4%.
AssumeFPS(24000,1001) would probably be what you need to use instead. Sometimes 24fps is converted to 25fps using pulldown (referred to as Euro-pulldown), but converting 24fps to 25fps by speeding it up is far more common.

In practice the NTSC and PAL versions mightn't necessarily be the same (frame rate aside). Even assuming the original content was film, sometimes different releases are edited slightly differently. It only takes an extra frame at a scene change here, a few less frames there....

I'm not sure what you mean when you say you "soft-flag" 25fps to 23.976fps. If you're talking about pulldown flags you'd probably have to go from 25fps to 29.970fps for NTSC, but once again it shouldn't change the duration.... the same way converting 23.976fps film to 29.970fps NTSC with 3:2 pulldown doesn't.
(I think sometimes PAL is slowed to 24.975fps before pulldown is applied to convert it to 29.970fps as it requires a far less complicated pulldown pattern than going from 25fps to 29.970fps).

One trial and error method that might be a bit less time consuming than encoding is to open the PAL version with MKVToolNixGUI, add the NTSC version, select just the PAL video and the NTSC audio, specify 23.976fps as the frame rate for the PAL video and remux. That way you should be able to determine if they match up properly, and it's a bit easier to apply a delay to the audio if required to fix the audio sync. Once you know it'll work you can re-encode the PAL video at 23.976fps if you need to.

[jagabo]

There are many ways film can make it to PAL an NTSC video, and PAL/NTSC videos are converted. Without samples there's no way of advising you without writing a very long post.

[manono]

I'm not sure what you mean when you say you "soft-flag" 25fps to 23.976fps. If you're talking about pulldown flags you'd probably have to go from 25fps to 29.970fps for NTSC,

He said, "...but I would like to just soft-flag PAL dvds that I'm encoding with a 23.976fps header". If he's already reencoding the things (for NTSC?), why jump through hoops when he could just slow them to begin with? If the aim is to keep them PAL, he can easily apply a soft pulldown (23.976->25) using DGPulldown.

It's kind of hard to tell exactly what he wants, though, as there was some flawed thinking and just plain gibberish in the post. If the idea is to replace a perfectly good non-English audio track with a poor English dub, well, that's what subtitles are for.

As jagabo mentioned, a sample is needed.

[TheLastOfThem]

My friends...all of you who reply to my threads despite my stupid....logic at times.

Im sorry. first off

Yes the post had gibberish because I was working on these episodes and...was confronted with the fact I may have done it all wrong.

Allow me to clearly explain now that I have passed out and risen again.

Firstly I am not sure if it was produced in 25fps. It is a cartoon from Disney I am backing up. But I guess it is originally 12fps to 24 fps final product

These PAL DVDs i assumed were simply sped up to 25fps...so to match it...I naturally just slowed the video and adjusted the sounds speed (some of these...most if not all I did not have a NTSC dvd for...as they are simply not available - never produced)

But last night...nearly 100 episodes in...I discovered a NTSC DVD of one episode that was bad on the PAL DVDs. I noticed its sound did not match the slowed to 23.976 PAL video.

Instead....it matched perfectly...the 25 fps file!!!?!?!?

It seems I was stupid....poured my soul into doing 100 episodes thinking the standard was simply slowing sown the video in speed...along with the audio.

Turns out the runtime of these PAL DVD videos...match the AMERICAN BROADCAST RUNTIME....


What I take it to mean (and you all can correct me as Im NOT sure entirely) is these PAL DVDs were not made by simply slowing down the american broadcast? But...then I have no idea how they did it......however it matches the runtime of the U.S. broadcasts exactly.

What this means is I have effectively slowed down.....audio even MORE than its american counterpart in EVERY episode (when all I probably needed to do was change pitch only...not speed as a whole)

Please....feel free to let me know. Im majorly depressed zi messed up and didnt check the runtime of the show FIRST before i started doing anything and assuming its standard PAL to NTSC

[TheLastOfThem]

Sample

[DB83]

A few observations.

1. You should always aim to post samples direct to the forum as attachments. Many people on here do not go near file hosts.
2. I question whether this content falls under the warez rules of the forum.

[manono]

What I take it to mean (and you all can correct me as Im NOT sure entirely) is these PAL DVDs were not made by simply slowing down the american broadcast?

Ordinarily, as hello_hello already explained, to convert from film to PAL the video is speeded up, not slowed down. However, that's not what happened here. They were converted from film to PAL in such a way that the runtime remained the same. You can use the audio and video untouched. Possible problems to doing that might be if there's a 24/23.976fps difference, or if the content of the 2 versions is slightly different (different logo or different frame count or some scenes that might be added or left out). The audio, if you're lucky, is already at the length you want and at the correct pitch. There's plenty wrong with the video but you probably don't want to have to learn how to fix it as it'll require a working knowledge of AviSynth and it can't be entirely fixed anyway.

And for future reference, don't make MKVs of your samples but cut the VOB or M2V directly. It saves us (me, anyway) some work.

[TheLastOfThem]

What I take it to mean (and you all can correct me as Im NOT sure entirely) is these PAL DVDs were not made by simply slowing down the american broadcast?

Ordinarily, as hello_hello already explained, to convert from film to PAL the video is speeded up, not slowed down. However, that's not what happened here. They were converted from film to PAL in such a way that the runtime remained the same. You can use the audio and video untouched. Possible problems to doing that might be if there's a 24/23.976fps difference, or if the content of the 2 versions is slightly different (different logo or different frame count or some scenes that might be added or left out). The audio, if you're lucky, is already at the length you want and at the correct pitch. There's plenty wrong with the video but you probably don't want to have to learn how to fix it as it'll require a working knowledge of AviSynth and it can't be entirely fixed anyway.

And for future reference, don't make MKVs of your samples but cut the VOB or M2V directly. It saves us (me, anyway) some work.

Thanks. Unfortunately I already sped down all 100 episodes....but I noticed the runtime is hard to find. The sites say the runtime is 23 minutes. Yet that only happens when I slow down the PAL broadcasts/PAL DVDs to that time. Otherwise they fall short...

I have TV Audio of the series as well from a friend - they have a 29.97 fps but they also seem to be the duration of the PAL sources originally (less than 23 minutes). Something seems odd.

[TheLastOfThem]

Alright. So turns out I did it right

The TV recordings my friend has are mostly all out of sync. And their runtime is PAL. Like someone...took it...and tried messing with it to convert it or something. He says they are not originally his but given by his friend. Typical.

NTSC DVDs of this series seems to be done wrong as well across the board.

Thanks everyone. I will continue to keep slowing it down.

[jagabo]

The opening credits aren't a good place to analyze the video. Shots are often sped up or slowed down (with blended, duplicate, deleted frames or fields) to match the music. A sample from the body of the video would be much better. But I was unable to reduce the video all unblended frames without duplicates during panning shots and without dropping some unique frames.

[TheLastOfThem]

The opening credits aren't a good place to analyze the video. Shots are often sped up or slowed down (with blended, duplicate, deleted frames or fields) to match the music. A sample from the body of the video would be much better. But I was unable to reduce the video all unblended frames without duplicates during panning shots and without dropping some unique frames.

In these sources, I notice they slow down the music than speed up the longer credits....or sometimes they slow down the music to fit the shorter credits. Not sure what the "original" intended credit music ever was meant to be. As the proof is in the recordings where they do seem to change it depending on changing credits and additional names, etc.

[jagabo]

The overall length of the music might be adjusted but individual video shots will be adjusted too. Because they want to sync the shot changes to a drum beat, or a character's motion to a lyrical phrase, or something like that. Providing a sample from the body of the show would be much better. But, suit yourself.

[hello_hello]

I'd be thinking generally even for the opening credits etc the audio is simply sped up for PAL. I wouldn't argue with what jagabo said though. It's certainly possible opening credits could be treated differently, but I don't exactly have a regular opportunity to compare the NTSC and PAL versions. Now and then though.....


Just for fun.

[jagabo]

I'd be thinking generally even for the opening credits etc the audio is simply sped up for PAL.

The sped up and slowed down shots are in the original video, exacerbated by the NTSC/PAL conversion. It makes it difficult to determine which problems are caused by the original mangling and which are caused by the conversion. And whether the overall video has been sped up for the conversion.

[hello_hello]

I IVTC'd the NTSC version and added it too. I think the frames pretty much line up now. I really only offered them as an example of PAL's audio sped-up-ness, because for once I could. No other reason.

There was a lot of horror inflicted on early Buffy, both NTSC and PAL. Frame/field blending in scenes where frame/field blending had no right to be etc. I think the early seasons were shot with 16mm film and transferred to video tape for additional effects because it was cheaper at the time and they became the broadcast masters, and sometimes stuff obviously happened along the way. Those broadcast versions were apparently used for the DVDs. Some of the picture quality is horrific, especially season two. Bad colour and a loss of detail. They look more like VHS rips in places. That's how I remember the story anyway.....

I just picked the first episode from each source and made a sample from the opening sequence. I didn't pay much attention to it.

[TheLastOfThem]

I IVTC'd the NTSC version and added it too. I think the frames pretty much line up now. I really only offered them as an example of PAL's audio sped-up-ness, because for once I could. No other reason.

There was a lot of horror inflicted on early Buffy, both NTSC and PAL. Frame/field blending in scenes where frame/field blending had no right to be etc. I think the early seasons were shot with 16mm film and transferred to video tape for additional effects because it was cheaper at the time and they became the broadcast masters, and sometimes stuff obviously happened along the way. Those broadcast versions were apparently used for the DVDs. Some of the picture quality is horrific, especially season two. Bad colour and a loss of detail. They look more like VHS rips in places. That's how I remember the story anyway.....

I just picked the first episode from each source and made a sample from the opening sequence. I didn't pay much attention to it.

Winnie The Pooh DVDs are sadly no different. The runtime is 10 minutes an episode - but that's just not possible. Shocking a big company like Disney/Warner Bros would confuse crappy knock-off work for "masters" to use for their DVD.

Sickening

[DB83]

^^ So are you suggesting that the source of that sample you posted was not 'crappy knock-off' ?

At best it was via a licensed tv broadcast from Russia. At worse, it was unlicensed.

Many dvds are sourced from 'broadcast masters' eg 1/2 tape. Did this stuff appear on anything before tv ?

[TheLastOfThem]

^^ So are you suggesting that the source of that sample you posted was not 'crappy knock-off' ?

At best it was via a licensed tv broadcast from Russia. At worse, it was unlicensed.

Many dvds are sourced from 'broadcast masters' eg 1/2 tape. Did this stuff appear on anything before tv ?

It's a licensed PAL DVD sample. It was on nothing before TV - doubt it. Its runtime does not add anywhere close to 30 mins. They messed up most if not all the NTSC DVDs I have though - with same runtime as PAL. PAL is definitely sped up too. So logic leads me to believe NTSC was just made somehow with a 25fps master? Pitch corrected - but they forgot to adjust for time.

[jagabo]

It's not uncommon for NTSC DVDs to be made from PAL video tape sources passed through a realtime PAL to NTSC converter. That results in no change in the running time as the devices use field blending to add fields.

[TheLastOfThem]

It's not uncommon for NTSC DVDs to be made from PAL video tape sources passed through a realtime PAL to NTSC converter. That results in no change in the running time as the devices use field blending to add fields.

But then I'd expect the material to not be what was intended....I suppose in a way we never really know how it was "intended" to be seen since different countries have different speeds. And nothing on record by any directors of the show going "Yeah - we want the runtime to be this and this at this framerate"

I contacted the animating studio for clarification but have yet to hear back

Thanks everyone for your thoughtful words! <3

[jagabo]

It was "shot" on 35mm film by Disney for USA television. It was certainly meant to run 24 fps.

[TheLastOfThem]

It was "shot" on 35mm film by Disney for USA television. It was certainly meant to run 24 fps.

Thank you! the problem is I'm not sure if the 10 minute thing is the true 24 fps runtime or if its longer. If each ep was 10 mins....then the slate wouldn't fill a 30 minute timeslot. Pretty sure they're doing the PAL>NTSC on the DVDs you mentioned...but they messed up and kept PAL runtime

[jagabo]

but they messed up and kept PAL runtime

They didn't "mess up". It's the most common way of converting interlaced PAL video tape to NTSC. Even if you slow the video account for PAL speedup the 10 minute episodes would only increase in length by about 25 seconds.

[TheLastOfThem]

but they messed up and kept PAL runtime

They didn't "mess up". It's the most common way of converting interlaced PAL video tape to NTSC. Even if you slow the video account for PAL speedup the 10 minute episodes would only increase in length by about 25 seconds.

I thought the most common way is slowing it down simply - not this PAL to NTSC conversion? I do believe they messed up. Runtime on broadcast in disney channel was closer to 11 minutes. They did mess up - as there would not be 10+ minutes of pure commercials in a 30 minute time slot. 7-8 maybe but toon disney has been known for lesser commercials along with ABC cartoon block

[hello_hello]

I've seen some BBC content that was frame blended to 29.970fps for NTSC. Older stuff shot on video. The original Doctor Who comes to mind. I suspect the frame blending method wouldn't be used much any more.

I haven't seen enough 25fps sources converted to NTSC format to know if slowing them down to 24fps is common, or even if I've seen an example of that. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that I don't recall seeing any. Maybe there's a reason. A longer runtime would cut down on the amount of time available for commercials, or maybe slowing it down would be more noticeable than speeding film up to 24fps. I'm guessing....

[jagabo]

I suspect the frame blending method wouldn't be used much any more.

It's done very often in low budget productions when standard converting analog tapes to analog tapes or even DVD/Blu-ray. I've seen many many conversions done this way. Only higher budget productions working from film or progressive digital sources speed up or slow down the frame rate.

[jagabo]

I've seen some BBC content that was frame blended to 29.970fps for NTSC. Older stuff shot on video. The original Doctor Who comes to mind. I suspect the frame blending method wouldn't be used much any more.

I haven't seen enough 25fps sources converted to NTSC format to know if slowing them down to 24fps is common, or even if I've seen an example of that. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that I don't recall seeing any. Maybe there's a reason. A longer runtime would cut down on the amount of time available for commercials, or maybe slowing it down would be more noticeable than speeding film up to 24fps. I'm guessing....

I haven't seen enough 25fps sources converted to NTSC format to know if slowing them down to 24fps is common, or even if I've seen an example of that.

Search these forums for posts where SRestore() is recommended. You'll find lots of samples of both PAL to NTSC and NTSC to PAL conversions.

[billw6560]

For PAL to NTSC conversion, I've done this many times with both DVD's and Blu-Rays. It's a little time consuming, but it does work.

1) I start by ripping the DVD to a single VOB file.

2) Use tsMuxerGUI to Remux/convert the VOB file into an m2ts file to clean up the VOB segment timing.

3) Use tsMuxerGUI to do two functions, A) change the video track fps to 24000/1001 (23.976), and B) Demux both audio and video.

tsMuxerGUI does a good job on the video track, but the audio remains untouched. There are several audio conversion programs out there, but I use TAudio Converter.

4) Use TAudio Converter to change the timing of the AC3 audio file from its original 25 fps to 24 fps (23.976). This is done in the "Filters" options, where you set the Speed (%) to something like 0.95904% (23.976/25).

I've found in most but not all cases, the sync between the video and audio tracks are fine, but sometimes you may need to tweak them a little.

5) Using tsMuxerGUI, Remux the converted video and audio tracks to m2ts format. If the audio sync is off, Remux again and use tsMuxerGUI's audio track Delay (in ms) function to dial in the sync. You can enter + or - values.

I've found from experience that all-in-one programs don't do a good job of this, and in many cases re-convert the the tracks which takes hours to do. This process takes considerably less time, the audio conversion step taking the longest time.

Hope this helps,
Bill