Will a TV search protector probably outlast a TV substantially?

[westom]

Yeah, but did you notice how the TONE of this thread went from "helpful with a bit of dissention on finer points" to "automatic bashing & nay-saying" as soon as westom posted?

A poster that provided facts, 100 years of well proven science, helpful solutions, and the numbers is attacked by a majority educated by hearsay, outright lies, and advertising. So you blame the victim? I am amused.

Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? Sorry. More numbers that only the most easily deceived must ignore. Where are manufacturer spec numbers? Why so many posts and you still cannot provide any numbers? Disparage science. Deny protection routinely found inside appliances. Blame the victim. Say anything to mask your own fears, uncertainty and doubt (FUD).

Reality. Protection that costs tens or 100 times less money means protection even from direct lightning strikes. It remains functional for decades. Is provided by companies more responsible than APC. Solutions from companies that any 'guy' would know for their quality and integrity. And not for their sales brochures.

Attack the messenger is how the least informed avoid learning reality by creating nasty tone. A more honest, educated, and civil man would have posted manufacturer specs long ago. Apparently you cannot. And will not say why you cannot.

Where are your spec numbers? Where do you answer the OP’s questions? Why so many posts without demonstrating knowledge? One can only contribute what one first learns – ie manufacturer spec numbers. The OP was provided well proven solutions (based in 100+ years of experience) that remains functional for decades. Then the least informed reply nasty.

[Cornucopia]

See - like I said... "automatic bashing & nay-saying". You don't know the least thing about me, Lordsmurf, SLK001, CobraPilot, TBoneIt, MOVIEGEEK, etc.
Our records of knowledge and helpfulness on this site and these matters speak for themselves. Yours has yet to even be established.

I'm guessing: TROLL. Nothing to see here. Moving on...

Scott

[lordsmurf]

...

We live in a world now where the internet is being use as a weapon for inflicting stupidity for personal gain. Sometimes it's obvious (like with politicians), and sometimes it's not.

I recorded a 9/11 conspiracy debunking off History Channel a few months ago, and I'm finally getting around to watching it this morning over breakfast. The self-named conspiracy "experts" are just a pimply kids with the collective forensic experience of a 5-year-old with a cereal box fingerprint kit. Yet, people are dumb enough to believe it -- unless informed otherwise (with the exception of the truly ignorant/insane who walk among us). The History Channel, in conjunction with Popular Science, took on the task as gatekeeper for truth/fact, and doing their best to poo-poo the idiots.

I don't know what Westom's game is, but several of us are tired of it. We've been forced into gatekeeper roles here.

[Nelson37]

I have installed many dozens if not hundreds of APC and other surge protectors in Southwest Florida, the Lightning Strike capital of the world. I have seen PC's that have actually caught on fire as a result of lightning-induced surges. I have also seen multiple problems caused by bad grounding related to poor building practices.

I have at least one and usually more, customer take a direct hit, or near miss, every year. Many have been hit multiple times. One got hit so often they went to an all-fiber network, years ago when this was VERY expensive. Lightning has hit the building I was in four or five times, the pole in my yard, the pole across the street, the tree in the next yard.

APC will write you a check if their equipment fails to prevent damage, even in the case of a direct hit by lightning. I have seen the checks, they have been used to pay my bill. Several times, and have never had a claim refused by them. I have seen many other claims for better equipment, but very few that promise to pay for damages and NONE repeat NONE that have actually authored a check, except for APC.

I also see less frequent damage through their units than most others. Minuteman and Panamax are close but not very common in my area, likely as they are more expensive.

I do not now and never have worked for, or receive any compensation from, this company. I recommend them wholeheartedly to all my customers, use them myself for many years, last company I worked for would refuse to do a server install unless an APC was included in the quote.

When someone wants to contend they have something better, I say fine, put your money where your mouth is, just like APC does, and has done, to my personal experience.

One other note, these units discussed are NOT UPS's, they are Battery Back-ups. A true UPS is ALWAYS on the battery, there is no switching. These are much more expensive.

[ron spencer]

If you really want to protect yourself, get one of these http://www.shunyata.com/ only about $7,000

[TBoneit]

Nelson37, Too true. I've had customers get paid by APC too. It is the only brand I use at home. And the cheaper ones may be a battery backup however in my home they function fine as a UPS since the switching time is less than the discharge time in the power supplies they feed. Power bleeps out the equipment keeps running. Close enough for me.

[MarcMiller]

Hello again
I have been closely following this thread I started and most enjoyed the link to videos provided by Cornucopia. Here it is again it's from the Furman brand of power and line conditioners, but I use their criteria for good line and power conditioning to search for another brand of line and power conditioners which may be less pricey and I came up with the brand of Panamax. Their products sound great to me as we act to 200v peak voltage and the search protectors also completely disconnect your equipment if the line voltage increases or decreases sufficiently to trigger this action. These are non-sacrificial circuits as nearly as I can tell so they should last a long time. And the completely disconnect feature may eliminate the need for UPS if you are on a tight budget like I am. Still another thing this brand is set to take here are his ground contamination. I'm thinking that the Panamax brand met all the important criteria pointed out on the Furman brand videos for good protection of your audio video equipment. The Panamax product I am thinking of purchasing the PM8-GAV and all its specs can be found here. So what do you think about this product or the criteria I outlined above?

[westom]

I'm thinking that the Panamax brand met all the important criteria pointed out on the Furman brand videos for good protection of your audio video equipment. The Panamax product I am thinking of purchasing the

PM8-GAV and all its specs can be found here. So what do you think about this product or the criteria I outlined above?

Read the specs you have provided, Where is any number that claims protection from each type of surge? Not provided. It claims to absorb 1125 joules. Protection already inside appliances would make that tiny surge irrelevant. Destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules. A surge too tiny to harm appliances would destroy that protector. The protector would either disconnect; leave the surge connected to an appliance. Or can create those scary pictures. Why ignore the NC fire marshal. Another reason for the ‘whole house’ protector. The Panamax needs to be protected. Only an earthed ‘whole house’ protector will do that.

The NIST (US government research agency that studies this stuff) says:
> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work by
> diverting the surges to ground. The best surge protection in the world can
> be useless if grounding is not done properly.

Where is that Panamax dedicated connection to earth? Neither pictured nor defined. Any facility that demands protection would never permit an ineffective device. How to quickly identify an ineffective protector. 1) It has no dedicated wire for the always required short connection to earth. 2) Manufacturer avoids all discussion about earthing. 3) Manufacturer will not discuss where hundreds of thousands of joules magically disappear. Panamax is ineffective thrice over. Or what the NIST calls “useless”.

Responsible facilities use ‘whole house’ protectors connected as short as possible (ie ‘less than 10 feet’) to single point earth ground. You have many superior options from more responsible companies including Square D, General Electric, Siemens, Intermatic, Leviton, Keison, or ABB. Panamax could not be on that list. A Cutler-Hammer solution sells in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. Every solution costs less. You would instead spend $100 per appliance for something that does not even claim protection?

More numbers. Increased protection means a protector closer to earth and distant from electronics. Telcos locate that protector up to 50 meters (150 feet) distant. Do you really think telcos that suffer 100 surges with each storm are dumb? Why would you ignore 100 years of well proven science to locate a protector where it does the least protection? Where it sometimes makes appliance damage easier? Why purchase something that does not even claim to do what you are asking for? Spend tens of times less money for something that actually does protect that TV? I don’t understand why you would ignore an engineer who was doing this stuff for generations. Who post numbers. Who defines why damage happens.

How often does someone trace surge damage. Replaced surge damaged IC. Learn why surge damage happens so that it need not happen again. Unfortunately reality cannot be put into a soundbyte. But the reality is this simple. Protection is always about where energy dissipates. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. A reality for every protection system without exception.

[Nelson37]

I have specifically discussed earth grounding with APC reps and they do in fact state clearly that proper ground is a necessity. They also have no upper limit to the surge voltage they will guarantee, with cash, that their equipment will prevent from damaging your hardware.

Please state which of these companies with all the correct specs will cut a check to repair or replace damaged equipment.

To the best of my knowledge, APC, and possibly Panamax and Minuteman, are the only companies which do this.

Theoretical discussion is nice, and interesting, but CASH in my pocket is better.

[lordsmurf]

I think you're pissing away your money on a Panamax "protector".
Get a battery backup.

[MarcMiller]

I think you're pissing away your money on a Panamax "protector".
Get a battery backup.

As stated earlier on this thread most of the UPSes sold to protect things like televisions aren't true always on battery UPSes and I believe the true UPSes are very pricey. So are you telling me get one of those very pricey UPSes or is battery backup something else? When I saw the feature of completely taking you off the grid with sufficient rise and fall of line voltages I thought that was something special for a surge protector, but admittedly I do not know if I've been reading the specs of search protectors carefully enough. Are their search protectors which are so good they can protect your television as well as one of those USBs which is really only a surge protector plus a fast switch which will switch in AC converted battery. Perhaps I need a surge protector specification reading lesson.

[lordsmurf]

I think I've already explained myself quite clearly and detailed. If you want to ignore it and buy the non-battery weiner surge "protector", then by all means do so. After your computer/TV/whatever blows up from power loss, maybe then you'll understand. I just don't have the time or energy anymore to have ridiculous conversations like these anymore, where I repeat myself 4-5 times before somebody listens.

At some point, I just have to stop caring. Good luck.

[usually_quiet]

I don’t understand why you would ignore an engineer who was doing this stuff for generations. Who post numbers. Who defines why damage happens.

Maybe because he refuses to get to his point and the numbers presented are frequently extraneous details that don't contribute anything useful to the discussion.

Trying to find a pertinent and accurate bit of technical information amongst the BS in any of your posts is like looking for a needle in a haystack. The one and only useful technical fact that you have presented here so far is that having a short distance to ground is better than having a longer distance to ground, since a surge is at some point going to be discharged to ground. The remaining 99.99% of the "facts" in each of your repetitious, long-winded posts were frankly not worth reading.

[westom]

I have specifically discussed earth grounding with APC reps and they do in fact state clearly that proper ground is a necessity. They also have no upper limit to the surge voltage they will guarantee, with cash, that their equipment will prevent from damaging your hardware.

Another complains about extraneous information. For example, why did I call ground "earth ground"? Because safety ground used by the APC is not earth ground. Both grounds are electrically different. They are discussed in the code in separate articles. A connection to earth also must be low impedance. Safety grounds are high impedance. Impedance - another term many will find extraneous due to insufficient knowledge provided by manufacturer sales brochures.

If an APC was earth grounded, then it would violate national safety codes. Plug-in appliances must be safety grounded. The only item that can be earth grounded is a main breaker box. Even secondary breaker boxes cannot be earth grounded. Why did they leave you deceived? An APC rep is typically not trained to know relevant electronics concepts (impedance, various grounds, or where energy dissipates).

Why does the NIST discuss earthing as critical? That APC or Panamax was described by the NIST as "useless".

Repeatedly stated. Connection must be short (ie 'less than 10 feet'). Other factors are also critical for low impedance earthing. A wire with sharp bends compromises protection. A wire inside metallic conduit also will not earth that APC. Wire to earth must not have splices. Excessive impedance is only one reason why the APC, Panamax, or other plug-in boxes do not discuss protection. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

Your APC rep discussed safety ground which is required for 'human' safety. Irrelevant to 'transistor' safety. The OP was asking for transistor safety.

Voltage is not the relevant parameter. Key to surge protection is current. Surges are a current source. Again, a term some will find extraneous when its significance was not apparent. A current source will increase voltage as necessary to blow through anything that might stop it. Will a battery inside a UPS stop a surge? Of course not. If that battery absorbs a surge, then everyone is the world is capturing lightning to use for household power. No battery can absorb surges. No magic box (UPS or power strip) will stop or absorb surges. But that is what others here are recommending. How does that magic box stop what three miles of sky could not?

Why does that UPS make no protection claims in its numeric specs? Only parables taught in hearsay and without numbers describe it as an energy absorber.

Only one item in a surge protection system can absorb hundreds of thousands of joules: earth. Some protection systems have no protectors. But every protection system - no exceptions - always has the only component that does protection - earth ground. Protection is always a discussion about where energy dissipates.

Destructive surges can be 20,000 amps. Protectors must divert, connect, bond, switch, or shunt that current low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to single point earth ground. Minimally sized 'whole house' protectors start at 50,000 amps. Superior protection costs less money than any UPS or that Panamax strip. A properly sized 'whole house' protector should last longer than a TV of 17 years. And always has that short connection to single point earth ground.

How many years will a UPS last? Its life expectancy is three years. Power strip protectors? Its light can indicate a failure on the first surge - typically once every seven years. Why does the 'whole house' protector do better protection for so much longer? 'Whole house' protectors put your money into protection. Not into myths, advertising, misleading sales brochures, and obscene profits.

How does a UPS, that disconnects in tens of milliseconds, stop a surge? Surges are done in microseconds. Numbers that some considered extraneous. A UPS leaves the TV connected directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode. Electricity is cleanest. Due to superior protection already inside all electronics, a UPS can also output 'dirty' power. This UPS outputs spikes up to 270 volts which would not harm any 120 volt TV. All electronics are so robust as to consider that UPS surge as noise. And, unlike a UPS, will respond in microseconds. Be concerned about the rare surge, typically once every seven years, that can overwhelm existing and superior protection. Only a ‘whole house’ protector protects appliances from the destructive type of surge. Then superior protection inside all electronics is not overwhelmed.

Protection is always about where energy dissipates. Many protection systems have no protectors. But every protection system must always have a low impedance connection to what absorbs energy – earth ground. A protector is only as effective as its "earth" ground.

Another long post because the 100 year old, well proven science cannot be defined in sound bytes. And because many simply do not understand it when posted the first time. Sound bytes can only promote ridiculously profitable plug-in protectors. Only protector that should outlast a TV 17 years later costs about $1 per protected appliance.

[westom]

Please state which of these companies with all the correct specs will cut a check to repair or replace damaged equipment.

So many people tried to get that warranty honored. Read their many fine print exemptions. One APC warranty said a protector in the house from any other manufacturer voided their warranty.

We all eventually learn this. A best warranty typically identifies the most inferior products. Who in autos has a best warranty? GM. Does that prove GM products are superior to Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai? Of course not.

Newsman on 10 Sept 2002 in "SONY TiVo SVR-2000" describes how his warranty covered damaged equipment:
> I got a Belkin surge protector with phone line protection soley for Tivo purposes.
> Yet my Tivo's modem still failed. And the '$20,000 connected devices warranty' did not help me.
> I jumped through many hoops, including finding the original recept for the surge protector (just
> under a year old) and I sent my surge protector to Belkin (paid for shipping), and was denied my
> warranty. They gave me a ton of crap, ... Eventually it boiled down to a line in the warranty that
> said "Belkin at it's sole discretion can reject any claim for any reason".

They are not selling surge protection. They are selling a profit center. Real protectors always have that low impedance and dedicated connection to single point earth ground. Are provided by more responsible companies including GE, Siemens, Cutler-Hammer, etc. Money goes into better protection - not into advertising a mythical warranty.

[Nelson37]

I will repeat what I have stated, and another poster verified - I HAVE SEEN THE CHECKS. I have NEVER had a claim refused.

Belkin is NOT, repeat and emphasize, NOT, APC. They are a different company.

The only statement APC has made to me about another surge protector company is that is may not be anywhere in the chain of "protected equipment - APC - wall outlet". Somewhere else in the home is not relevant.

APC backs up their claims with cash. End of story. The issue that you are disputing information that is known to me, and others, to be absolute fact, causes the rest of your "information" to appear as meaningless drivel.

[westom]

Belkin is NOT, repeat and emphasize, NOT, APC. They are a different company.

Why is APC superior?

Take a $4 power strip. Add some ten cent protector parts. This sells in the supermarket for $7. APC, Belkin, Tripplite, etc sell similar products for $25 and $60. Monster has a long history of identifying scam. Then selling equivalent products for even higher prices. An equivalent circuit is sold by Monster for $100 or $150. Different company names. Same products.

APC and the others have a poor reputation among a minority who actually do this stuff. An employee could get fired for installing an APC product inside a telco switching center (CO). Because APC does not even claim protection. APC will replace a damaged protector and still have obscene profits. Its warranty is so chock full of exemptions that APC need not honor it. Why honor a warranty on a product that does not even claim effective protection? Little difference exists in products from APC, Belkin, or Monster. Even their numeric specs are similar.

You have no reason to believe and posted not facts that prove APC surge protection. Every facility that cannot suffer damage do not waste money on that ineffective solution. Every facility that suffers direct lightning strikes without damage earths a less expensive ‘whole house’ protector that remains functional after direct lightning strikes. The facility also upgrades the only item that does surge protection. That absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. That defines the quality of every protector: single point earth ground.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. No earth ground means no effective protection. Since APC does not connect to and will not discuss earthing. Then its warranty will fix an engineering fubar? Nonsense. The warranty is marketing hype.

APC, Belkin, Panamax, Tripplite, and Monster - all equivalent products - avoid discussing earthing for one simple reason. It does not even claim protection in its numeric specs. It hypes a big buck warranty that has many exemptions. Different companies. Similar products defined by similar spec numbers.

I am only an engineer who has made surges irrelevant. And traced damage back to power strip protectors that compromised protection inside adjacent appliances. I do not play marketing games with warranties that will somehow fix defective protector hardware. Informed consumers get insurance from a licensed broker. Informed consumers earth one ‘whole house’ protector from more responsible companies – about $1 per protected appliance - to actually have surge protection.

Somehow a warranty will fix a protector that does not do and does not claim to provide surge protection? Please.

[lordsmurf]

I'm adding this thread to my list of top 25 most retarded threads ever on Videohelp.
If it keeps going down this path, it could easily hit top 10 status.

Q: How do I protect my TV?

Choose most sensible answer:
A: Choose a surge protector. If the power goes out, your TV may still have parts blow up (literally) or fizzle out.
B: Use a UPS. It's a surge protector + battery backup to protect against power loss.
C: Rewire your building with an industrial power protection solution.

A is a nice try, but ultimately just as bad as plugging it directly into a wall socket.
B is ideal.
C is ******* ridiculous.

I don't know what's worse: (1) the thick OP, or (2) the psychopath electrician

[westom]

MarcMiller: posted were well proven solutions from an engineer who has done this stuff even decades ago. Solutions implemented anywhere when damage cannot happen. Even proven in munitions dumps. This poster also learned from much experience including some very educational mistakes.

Ignore myths about destructive power loss and rewiring the house. Power off does not damage any electronics. Rewiring would not provide transistor protection. The so called industrial grade solution is also the least expensive. He invents myths to justify his nasty attitude and his profanity. Venomous accusation were posted due to plenty of opinion, no facts, no experience, and anger (he *knows* without first learning this stuff).

Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. For some reason, 100 years of well proven technical reality makes others angry and profane.

[usually_quiet]

@weston: All I see is a guy who operates on two infamous marketing principals "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance baffle them with bullshit." and "If you repeat a statement often enough, people will believe it".

I see more sound bytes and marketing speak than facts in your posts. "100 year old, well proven science" = sound byte. So what is this science, pray tell? "Due to superior protection already inside all electronics" = sound byte. Name the technologies used. "Informed consumers earth one ‘whole house’ protector from more responsible companies – about $1 per protected appliance - to actually have surge protection." = marketing BS. The cheapest whole house solution I saw at Home Depot's website was $65, not $50, and probably crap since most were $200 and up, but who has 50 appliances in their house? These figures don't include the cost of professional installation, which is strongly recommended by the manufacturer of each and every one of the units I looked at. I could go on, but why waste everybody's time by repeating marketing drivel.

A competent engineer can offer a concise explanation of technology he understands. You can't do that. You don't know or understand the technology involved (beyond grounding) well enough to name it, let alone explain how it works.

The fonts used have gotten larger and bolder with each of your posts. Using large, bold fonts to essentially shout at the people reading your posts doesn't add to your credibility. It makes you look even more like a troll.

[Edit]Whole house solutions have LED indicators just like strip surge protectors, which according to the product descriptions, need to be monitored because they indicate whether or not the surge protector is working properly. Components in whole-house surge protectors do fail, and at that point a module, or the unit itself must be replaced. The chances of cheap whole-house solutions providing worry-free protection for decades look pretty slim to me. ...and they only protect against surges originating outside the home. They can't protect against surges originating inside of a house, nor to they offer any protection against damage done by power outages or brownouts. A good battery backup (which will include surge protection) can be helpful with both those situations.

[MarcMiller]

Only protector that should outlast a TV 17 years later costs about $1 per protected appliance.

Well I think a house protector is out of the question because of its cost. But I would like to see your math for the above statement.

lordsmurf - thinks you are dense if you don't get what seems to be his only point "get the most expensive APC UPS you can afford." Well from many many posts I very much get the idea that most posters to this thread favor the APC brand. So were I to stretch my budget and get an APC UPS perhaps you could explain in detail how the spec's of this APC UPS that I will post below would or would not be quite adequate in regard to what I have heard on the videos recommended to me by Cornucopia. Once again these videos are from the Furman brand of power conditioners

OK here are the specs for the ACP Apc G5Blk Power Conditioner available on Amazon for$119.99


From ACP itself the specs I am copying below.

Output
Number of Outlets
9
Receptacle Style
NEMA 5-15R
Input
Nominal Input Voltage
120V
Input Frequency
50/60 Hz
Input Connections
NEMA 5-15P
Cord Length
8 feet (2.44 meters)
Maximum Input Current
15A
Input Breaker Capacity
15.0 A
Surge Protection and Filtering
Surge energy rating
3400 Joules
EMI/RFI Noise rejection (100 kHz to 10 MHz)
55 dB
Let Through Voltage Rating
< 40
Physical
Net Weight
8.58 lbs. (3.90 kg)
Maximum Height
1.71 inches (43 mm)
Maximum Width
17.13 inches (435 mm)
Maximum Depth
9.45 inches (240 mm)
Shipping Weight
10.60 lbs. (4.82 kg)
Shipping Height
3.40 inches (86 mm)
Shipping Width
21.73 inches (552 mm)
Shipping Depth
12.99 inches (330 mm)
Master Carton Units
2.00
Master Carton Dimensions (Length x Width x Height)
22 x 13 x 7 inches (564 x 341 x 182 mm)
Master Carton Weight
21.70 lbs. (9.86 kg)
Color
Black
Units per Pallet
36.00
Environmental
Operating Environment
32 - 122 °F (0 - 50 °C)
Operating Relative Humidity
0 - 95%
Operating Elevation
0-10000 feet (0-3000 meters)
Storage Temperature
5 - 113 °F (-15 - 45 °C)
Storage Relative Humidity
0 - 95%
Storage Elevation
0-10000 feet (0-3000 meters)
Conformance
Regulatory Approvals
UL 1449
Standard Warranty
Lifetime
Equipment protection policy
Lifetime : $450000
UL 1449 TVSS Rating
330V
Environmental Compliance
RoHS


Westom in a post response to one of my previous posting said 1125 joules was not enough so what about 3400 Joules you can see in the specs I posted above.

I have the following questions on how the above APC power conditioner compare with what Furman videos claim necessary. The Furman videos claim you should have a non-sacrificial surge protector one that can absorb many many shocks like shock absorbers on a car because the actual number power surges can be as many as hundreds per day due to the power companies always looking for the cheapest power turning on and off substations and such. Does the fact that this ACP power conditioner doesn't have those sacrificial useful life light indicators mean it is a non-sacrificial unit one which meets the Furman videos criteria as recovering from surges and being good for many many surges.
Another claim up Furman brand products are is the clamping voltage is 188V peak as near as I can tell the relevance spec above reads this way "UL 1449 TVSS Rating 330V" I know that is a UL spec APC power conditioner is meeting, but the Furman videos claims that letting through power surges will have a cumulative of a fact on your ICs life expectancy especially in regard to microprocessors. So I would think it would be also true for video processors. I have seen other brands of power conditioner that claim they have lower peak clamping voltage than this APC power conditioner so of those other power conditioners better at increasing the longevity of your equipment as Furman would have you believe? Still another claim of the Furman brand is it provides ground isolation if a surge tries to sneak into your unit through ground. So what do you think of ground isolation. I have not been able to locate this feature on this APC power conditioner I am now considering. So do you think this is an important feature of power conditioners or do you think this ground isolation claim of Furman is nonsense. I have seen other brands besides Furman make this ground isolation claim.

The last equipment question I have is one not previously answered in my prior posting perhaps because I had sloppy language and was considering a surge protector a power conditioner. Can a non-UPS power conditioner achieve the same protection for your equipment if you are just worried about the equipment and not data losses? I mean I have seen power conditioners which are not UPSs which say they disattach youth from the line on power increases or decreases beyond a certain threshold. So is this as good as UPS if you are not concerned with data just protecting your equipment?

I do have an insurance question I will probably settle on a television sufficiently small to get in and out of my car by myself. Many of you are professionals in the audiovisual field. If I should suspect my television failed because of a failure with my APC power conditioner can I bring it to a professional to make the determination free of charge if I promise to buy a new one from them if they determine that the problem with my TV is because the APC power conditioner failed?

[Cornucopia]

@westom,

Battery Life expectancy: Low end=3-5 years, high end=15 years. But that's the great thing you do with batteries - replace them occasionally.
http://upsonnet.com/Newsletter2010/November-Life-Expectency-UPS-Batteries.html

Your evangelizing of grounding is somewhat valid, but VERY misguided and you're using tunnel vision. Building code already covers single-short-path-to-ground in modern circuit breaker boxes.

And that's a very MINOR item involved in general consumers' power problems. There's also:
EMI
RFI
Voltage Fluctuations (and NO, I'm not taking about Lightning spikes) - Surges and Dips
Frequency Fluctations
Brownouts (long-term lower-than-normal steady voltage)
Power Harmonics
Transients
Power Factor Fluctuations
Ground Loop problems

Even doing a simple google search on "electrical power conditioning filetype: pdf" will get you a number of reasoned articles. Some are written by companies involved in selling the items, others by power companies, others by environmental groups, others by educational institutions. They all pretty much agree (and refute lots of what you have to say):

http://www.giac.org/cissp-papers/437.pdf

http://www.powervar.com/pdf/spec_sheets/SM122-ABCs.pdf

http://www.aelgroup.co.uk/pdf/wp_hifi.pdf

http://www.stacoenergy.com/pdf/articles/Staco%20Power%20Quality%20Guide.pdf

http://tupeloschools.com/modules/groups/homepagefiles/cms/2213995/File/US40845_EcoPowe...81778c6197f5eb

http://4294956165701126135-a-1802744773732722657-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/mcctuhi...attredirects=0

http://www.musicdirect.com/documents/pdf/AFURMANITREF20_HOMET.pdf

BTW, this whole "100 years of science" doesn't mean YOU. Yeah there's 100 years of science out there, but you're picking and choosing what science you want to agree and disagree with.

Grow up.

Scott

[westom]

Well I think a house protector is out of the question because of its cost. But I would like to see your math for the above statement.

lordsmurf - thinks you are dense if you don't get what seems to be his only point "get the most expensive APC UPS you can afford."

No relationship exists between price and quality. A $7 power strip protector selling in the supermarket is also the protector circuit selling in the $150 Monster protector. Anyone can read or post those manufacturer specs. Those in denial will do anything to avoid numbers. Meanwhile, a superior protector that should last for decades sells for $50 in Lowes or Home Depot. And protects everything including the door bell.

You are asking plenty of good questions. Let's start with Saddam's WMDs. Did you view the facts and numbers to see through that myth? A majority did not. We with engineering training saw through it. And were apalled how many could so easily be manipulated by hearsay.

However I should not have been surprised. It is what my father did. Manipulate a majority with outright lies. Key was to always make every claim subjective. One night he complained the FTC was taking the fun out of it. Demanding that advertising be more honest.

In the 1950, an overwhelming majority believed you smoke to increase health. Advertising said so. See the so many acidic replies here? The Surgeon General got the same response when he said smoking kills. A majority only believe the first thing told. And then 'kill the messenger' rather than learn facts. You have zero reasons to believe the APC recommendations. Because even the manufacturer specifications do not claim what so many have been so easily manipulated to believe.

The only numbers that claims any protection is 3400 joules. That number is provided only because UL requires it – as part of the UL listing for human safety (not for transistor safety).

3400 joules means it provides only 1133 joules and never more than 2266 joules for protection. OK. So how does that near zero number make a hundreds of thousands of joules surge just magically disappear? It doesn’t. As long as they list near zero joules, then they can claim, subjectively, that is it 100% protection.

Where do hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate? And, BTW, how does it stop what three miles of sky could not? APC hope you never ask damning questions.

Well, a surge too tiny to damage an appliance can sometimes destroy a grossly undersized protector. That also gets a majority to assume, “My protector sacrificed itself to save my computer.” Nonsense. Protection routinely found inside electronics makes the surge irrelevant. Protector had to disconnect as fast as possible to avert a house fire. Where is the protection?

There is no such thing as a sacrificial protector. MOV manufacturers are quite blunt about this in the top of every datasheet. Any energy that destroys an MOV is a violation of manufacturer design requirements. Protector must only degrade – not fail. In fact, one MOV manufacturer defines how to test their protector parts for an acceptable failure mode:
> The change of Vb shall be measured after the impulse listed below is applied
> 10,000 times continuously with the interval of ten seconds at room temperature.

Do 10,000 surges should like a sacrificial protector? Of course not. Sacrificial protectors are profit centers. Grossly undersized to promote sales among the most naïve.

What does the indicator light report? If the protector was so grossly undersized, then its MOVs (protetor parts) must disconnect ASAP. The light only reports one type of failure – that the protector was grossly undersized. That above 10,000 surge test (an acceptable failure mode) would never be reported by indicator lights.

Meanwhile, one picture shows all MOVs removed from a protector. Its lights claim the protector is still good – when obviously is it not. Learn what the lights are really reporting. Not what others claim only because they have assumed:
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html

Another light is the ground light. It does not (and obviously cannot) report on earth ground. It can only report some types of safety ground failure. And cannot even report if the safety ground is good. To keep a majority confused, the manufacturer only calls it “ground”. And does not say what that light is really reporting.

Again, why did so many automatically know that Saddam had WMDs. Because a majority were told what to believe rather than first learn facts and numbers. We were all taught how to avoid junk science conclusions in elementary school science. Any conclusion based only in observation – without first learning the underlying concepts – is junk science. That failure light and ground light are but two examples. Another classic example was spontaneous reproduction. Those who knew only from observation “proved” that life came from spontaneous reproduction. Those who learn using science would learn from MOV datasheets how a protector is really supposed to work. Knonwledge only from observation is classic junk science. One reason why a majority just knows without first learning what was understood even when surge protectors were first patented in the last 1880s. Yes, the well proven science is that old.

Safety ground isolation cannot exist. An appliance cannot be UL approved without a safety ground that is nothing but a conductor. Nothing else, not even a coil, can exist in that safety ground connection. I have no idea what they are calling ground isolation. But safety ground must make an uninterrupted connection back to the mains breaker box. Not even to earth. It must connect to the breaker box.

UL 1449 is only as safety standard. A protector could even fail completely – no transistor protection. But it must not create a fire. All UL statndard only define human safety. Some manufactures will also claim that it meets ANSI/IEEE C62.41. That is only a test waveform. How does it ‘conform’ to a waveform? Again, they are playing games with a majority that can so easily be manipulated by subjective claims.

There is not cumulative effective on semiconductors. Either an excessive voltage causes damage (or overstress). Or that semiconductors is perfectly fine. Overstress is a unique condition where semiconductor damage causes failure days or years later. We had to analyze all aerospace hardware for overstress. And replace any semiconductor that might have been damaged or overstressed by an excessive transient. The transient does the damage immediately. Damage is not cumulative. The resulting failure can occur immediately or even months later.
[continued in the next post]

[westom]

[continued from the previous post]
Power conditioner, surge protector, series mode filter, etc are subjective names for many different ‘solutions’. You don’t buy on those subjective names. You identify the anomaly up front. Then purchase the solution for that anomaly. Nothing addresses all these: frequency variation, harmonics, floating ground, noise, power factor, surge, ground loop, blackout, etc. Any anomaly that can be solved on the power cord is already inside electronics. The other anomalies are solved elsewhere. The one anomaly that every reader must address is surges. An evernt that occurs typically once every seven years. That can blow through protection already inside digial clocks, the furnace, bathroom GFCIs, telephone appliances, dimmer switches, etc. What most needs protection during a surge? Smoke detectors. The only solution for everything is earthing. That means a ‘whole house’ protector on AC mains. Only then is protection inside all electronics not overwhelmed. That protection is also necessary to protect power strip protectors or a UPS.

I cannot say whether the repairman will make an honest diagnosis. I cannot say how many computers I have fixed because the failure was only a fifteen dollar power supply or something even less expensive. The Geek Squad is trained first to maximize sales. Most of these ‘scam’ were to women who were manipulated into buying a whole new machine.

Meanwhile most electronics failures are not due to ‘dirty’ power. Most failures are manufacturing defects. For example, those counterfeit electrolytic capacitors – a manufacturing defect - failed years later. Most would have blamed it on a surge had there not been a physical deformity. Chances are your TV failed due to a manufacturing defect.

Why would disconnecting on voltage variation be useful as some power conditioners claim? How often are your incandescent lamps increasing or decreasing intensity by 50%? Utilities are required to maintain voltage to within single digits so that voltage variation does not damage motorized appliances such as air conditioners, furnace, and refrigerator. If the utility does not maintain voltage, then it automatically disconnects power. How often are your incandescent bulbs failing in half the time? That higher voltage causes premature bulb failure. And is still a perfectly ideal voltage for all electronics.

Unfortunately, when we lose the incandescent bulb, then layman lose a fabulous diagnostic tool.

Hopefully I have answered all questions. If not, then repost them. Appreciate the generations of experience behind these replies. Should you need more quantitative answers, then just ask. I am more than happy to provide well proven science in any topic dominated by myths. And I appreciate a post that asks questions rather than attacks the messenger.

BTW, protectors, series mode filters, and other devices adjacent to appliances do provide unique functions. But for virtually everyone, that function serves no purpose.

[lordsmurf]

In honor of VH members of last decade....

I farted.

[westom]

Your evangelizing of grounding is somewhat valid, but VERY misguided and you're using tunnel vision. Building code already covers single-short-path-to-ground in modern circuit breaker boxes.

You are confusing earthing sufficient for code with earthing that must also be low impedance. A breaker box ground wire can go over the foundation and down to an earth ground. That is sufficient for human safety and the code. And woefully insufficient for transistor safety (surge protection). Bare copper wire is too long, has too many sharp bends, and is bundled with other non-ground wires. Even worse if it is inside a metallic conduit. For superior surge protection, that same wire must go through a foundation and down to earth.

Earthing to a cold water pipe is also insufficient earthing for a long list of electrical reasons starting with the number one reason - excessive impedance.

Earthing for better surge protection means a single point earth ground that both meets and “exceeds” post 1990 National Electrical code.

Surge protection is even about geology. For some, a few ten foot copper clad ground rods are more than sufficient. For others, surge damage did not stop until the house was encircled by a ground loop. In most every case, that worst case solution is not necessary. But again the point. You are confusing grounds for human safety (the code) with ground for transistor safety (surge protection). The same ground does both. But surge protection is about exceeding code requirements.

For others, one utility demonstrates earthing that causes surge damage, earthing for effective protection, and a kludge solution when electricians, satellite dish, telephone, and cable installer were not taught basic concepts.
http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-business/products/power-quality/tech-tip-08.asp

Many only informed by sales brochures from plug-in protector manufacturers would be learning this for the first time.

Bottom line always remains. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

[Cornucopia]

In honor of VH members of last decade....

I farted.

Touché!

I even remember when that occurred.

Scott

[usually_quiet]

westom should get a booby prize for writing the longest, most rambling, and most repetitious posts, that have appeared so far in the history of VideoHelp. LOL

[johns0]

Please do not discuss politics in this forum,it's against forum rules,this thread is closed.