tough time exporting for broadcast standards

[Cornucopia]

See what I mean? It's like he's tweeting while on crack.

Scott

[smrpix]

Yes, the specs are fine for PC (he exported it from sony vegas using the preset, so it damn well should be) , but I think his recipients are mac based (they usually prefer MOV) and explicitly stated that they don't want mono audio tracks

pdr, I understand your concern about the audio -- but this is absolutely normal for xdcam delivery.

Also, in my attempts to convert to mov using ffmpeg and ffmbc, using commandlines both similar and identical to yours, the file gets screwed up somehow. Should not be an issue anyway because Avid and Premiere can handle OP-1a mxf files just fine on PC or Mac.

Normally I bow to your wisdom, but in this case I think you've got him unnecessarily chasing a wild goose. (and I think he's already caught a Wild Turkey)

[poisondeathray]

Yes, the specs are fine for PC (he exported it from sony vegas using the preset, so it damn well should be) , but I think his recipients are mac based (they usually prefer MOV) and explicitly stated that they don't want mono audio tracks

pdr, I understand your concern about the audio -- but this is absolutely normal for xdcam delivery.

Yes that' s what I've been saying. That is standard XDCAM configuration - usually it's 2-8 mono tracks. Even straight out of the camera for XDCAMs

But what is not normal is their request where it says "pay close attention to the following: NO Mono audio files or tracks (watch your output settings)" . Or at least clarify if it's ok to deviate from their request. That is the concern and goose chase

Also, in my attempts to convert to mov using ffmpeg and ffmbc, using commandlines both similar and identical to yours, the file gets screwed up somehow. Should not be an issue anyway because Avid and Premiere can handle OP-1a mxf files just fine on PC or Mac.

Yes, in Premiere it's ok. But the majority of Mac stations still use FCP 7 . They prefer usually XDCAM to be MOV wrapped instead of going through the hoops and conversions .

What problems were you having with ffmbc ?

For ffmbc, I forgot to add the -vtag line as per the initial instructions
http://code.google.com/p/ffmbc/wiki/XDCAMHD422Encoding

-vtag "xd5b" should be added since it's MOV wrapped

Tested, working, verified

Normally I bow to your wisdom, but in this case I think you've got him unnecessarily chasing a wild goose. (and I think he's already caught a Wild Turkey)

Haha Thanksgiving is already over in Canada

[smrpix]

What problems were you having with ffmbc ?

For ffmbc, I forgot to add the -vtag line as per the initial instructions
http://code.google.com/p/ffmbc/wiki/XDCAMHD422Encoding

-vtag "xd5b" should be added since it's MOV wrapped

Tested, working, verified

I've been using those same instructions, the mxf outputs work great, but when re-wrapping to mov I end up with a green screen in Avid and no video in Premiere. (on a PC)

Normally I bow to your wisdom, but in this case I think you've got him unnecessarily chasing a wild goose. (and I think he's already caught a Wild Turkey)

Haha Thanksgiving is already over in Canada

Speaking of Wild Turkey, I'm going to have to break out some of those old Hunter S.Thompson books. Wonder if they hold up.

[poisondeathray]

It doesn't work on a PC because MOV's are generally routed through quicktime. You need calibrated{Q} or similar plugins to use them as MOVs on a PC (but nobody does that on a PC , they use MXF). In general MOV's are like green kryptonite for PC's and cause massive headaches . Similarly anything non-MOV is like kryptonite for Macs . So you need similar plugins like calibrated{Q} or virtal MXF on the Mac for MXF wrapped XDCAM , or use the Sony XDCAM Transfer utility . (XDCAM is also commonly MP4 wrapped for the EX version)

The same question frequently comes up when a MAC user exports MOV wrapped XDCam in FCP intended for a PC user (The Mac user typically doesn't know anything other than MOV) - So the PC user wonders "How the Hell do I use this" ? , the answer is either rewrap it to MXF or use one of the 3rd party import plugins

[coolhotfun]

ok the help guys got back to me.. i guess they have the weekend off. Sounds like maybe i can submit .mxf files. He says i can play them in the VLC player if i got the right thingamajig.

Now i was testing out that VLC on that lagarith and it was pausing bad. I think thats cause it was gigantic file sizes, maybe if i have a more normal size it wont crap out. So i'll test out exporting an mxf from that new 10sec file and see if i can play it in VLC.

They sent me a tutorial pdf of exporting in premiere but naturally their presets have XDCAM HD422. I replied with a screenshot of mine showing there's none. But said i could get an mxf with correct specs in vegas. Enough with the premiere already. I can use that for editing but this export, i'm all done with premiere. lol. So he sent me a tutorial pdf for exporting in vegas. I was on the right track. But there's this broadcast colors thing i was wondering about. In this next 10sec test i had ran the premiere broadcast colors with 2 instances, the luminosity and the saturation. That other guy earlier was saying the saturation was too much maybe that'll help but i didnt see a difference with it. If you'd have one or the other it brings it down but both doesnt make an extra difference. I'll try checking it out in vegas. Here's that section in the pdf tutorial.

"broadcast level.. click on view > video scopes to view the vectorscope and waveform monitor, and ensure that your levels are within broadcast standards. If your levels do not meet these standards, then you can apply the Broadcast Colors filter. Click on tools > video > video output FX. Browse the sony > utility > sony broadcast colors filter and click ok. Adjust levels as needed here. If your black levels are intended to be 0 IRE (for HD video), ensure that 7.5 IRE setup is NOT checked."

I was wondering about that black levels line they had mentioned.. "•Black levels: 0 IRE for HD " and in premiere, i'm there.. well where can i see some sort of black level IRE. Well sounds like there's something in vegas. ok so i'm gonna look into this and exporting a new mxf.

One thing i gotta do is find a better file host.. that zippy share is for the birds. I had that damn popup window making it look like my flash was out of date with some http that had numbers instead of adobe.com. Like talk about virus bait this sh**. And then there was those ads below.. not very professional if i'm gonna send them some kind of email with a link to this crap.. somebody's gotta find me a better file host. lol.

But yeah.. sounds like that attempt to convert to some kind of .mov output aint gonna happen? Sure was seeming like a stick in the mud trying to get something going with that. I dunno..

There was also something else i seen earlier where i mention how i'm getting the source material from downloading youtube vids and zooming in on sections and adding filters. Where he talks about

"If that's the case, then you might consider pre-filtering the assets (e.g. using deblocking filters) "

We'll have to get back to that. There was also some later stuff where these guys are saying, didnt you see what i said.. well i was going back to where i had left off and slowly trying to figure out what they wanted me to do so wasnt there yet. Anything i gotta get back to you guys about?

But yeah for now i'm deleting that damn avisynth i couldnt fire up cause it was missing something and deleting that ffmpc.. enough already with the code programs.. sheesh. I think i might probably need some sort of mxf thingamajig in VLC to be able to play that but i'll see when i make it.

ok.. in rough shape last night after just a damn 6 pack.. always makes things more difficult but i cant control myself and had to pick some up. I'll be allright for a couple weeks.. gut feels ugh. Couldnt drink more than 1 day in a row even if i tried. My gut would feel too ugh.

[coolhotfun]

ok firing up the vegas. Starting a new project, from the template HD 1080-60i (1920x1080, 29.970 fps). Where it says "pixel format" the default is 8-bit. Not sure if i've got to change it to something else. There's also "32-bit floating point (video levels)" or "32-bit floating point (full range)". But then that one activates what was greyed out below, compositing gamma: 1.000 (linear), then below, view transform: ACES RRT (sRGB). Think i'll just leave it to the 8-bit.

Now to get that broadcast colors. I use sony acid for multitrack audio so kinda familiar with some things, even though i never used vegas before. To get that video FX, i drag and drop that "broadcast colors" onto the video in the timeline and you see that little event FX icon turn green. Then i go to "video event FX" to see the plugin chain settings. They say "Ensure broadcast safe chroma levels (below 120 IRE)". I see that chroma slider and the number is 148. Think thats what that guy earlier was trying to show that things were still too hot even though i had used the broadcast colors in premiere. I also have that vectorscope/waveform circle graph showing. So now i gotta turn that chroma slider down below 120 so i'll slide it to 119. Now you see things in the vectorscope dont go past that.

There's this other slider set they dont mention in the help pdf. Composite, max slider number also says 148. I'm guessing that also has to be below 120? The other sliders i just left the same. Only changed those couple 148's to 119.

And then they say to uncheck that 7.5 IRE setup. That takes care of what i was wondering earlier about "Black levels: 0 IRE for HD" and i'm there, well where do i see a black level setting in premiere. When i was looking into this vectorscope in vegas, i'm there.. well wheres graphs like this in premiere. Seems like its in the same window as the video preview, well how can you view the video and the graph at the same time. Didnt know where the settings were to change things like this.. so whatever with premiere i'd have to use vegas to make sure things are correct.

ok so i'll export an mxf of this and upload it to the wonderful zippy share site. Make sure you have your antivirus set to high alert when you go there. lol

So when i uncheck that plugin i see it tone a bit of maxed out colors. And then that circle graph the dots dont go outside the range, but wasnt too many over. That premiere had lowered it but i guess not enough even though the IRE on luminance and saturation were set to 110. hmm

[aedipuss]

you could sign up for a for a free mega filesharing site account. i find it to work fine. https://mega.co.nz/

[poisondeathray]

It's good that they will accept the standard mxf wrapped xdcamhd - makes life easier

I thought you were familiar with Premiere Pro CS3 ? The scopes in premiere can be accessed in the program monitor , source monitor, or reference monitor . Do you see red green blue circles under the preview in the program monitor ? left click that and it will give you options to toggle the various scopes

You can use dropbox, it's another commonly used site in pro video circles. I wouldn't use mega for sending material to clients - it's got a negative connotation as a "pirate" site . It would be fine if you were sending things to friends

[coolhotfun]

i got a problem here.. i export the mxf with the broadcast colors plugin settings but when i open up the mxf in vegas again, things are going outside the allowable vectorscope area. I can add the plugin and it crops things out again. Wasnt sure what was going on so took a screenshot of the original file at exactly 5sec then compared them. Things did get toned down but they're still outside the area. I guess i gotta tone things down more than 119? I'll try 110.

oh about the file hosting.. i heard of dropbox i'll look into that. Thanks for the tips. Dont wanna send them a test file to see if things are ok and the shady site has ads of chicks doing things with their boobs. That'd be a tad unprofessional.

However.. the full length 7min 1920 mxf 'll be pretty big file size i bet, i'll have to see what kind of file size i'm talking about here before i look for a host. Just gotta get things correct first. That rendering is gonna take a while. Just this 10sec file takes 1min30sec.

I think once you join the digital media distribution service they'd have hosting. This is just for them to check to see if i got the specs correct. Not sure how it works cause if people are checking it out and gotta play an mxf there might be problems cause i cant even play it properly with vlc.. the audio seems to have problems. But it seems to play correctly if you open it back up in vegas.

Testing out that IRE.. down to 100 so that dots arent outside 119 when i reopen up the file. Its killing a whole layer of color though. All these highlight areas. Its kinda like in photoshop when you turn an RGB to CMYK for printing something. meh.

[smrpix]

As noted previously, your mxf files out of Vegas are fine from a codec/muxing perspective.

Highly recommend you do a manual color correction pass to bring it into spec while maintaining control of your "look," and only add a broadcast safe effect at the end to catch intermittent strays.

[coolhotfun]

i think thats what he's talking about is this "intermittent strays".. these odd dots that are outside the allowable range once you reopen it up. I got it 100 and then open that, then set it to 119 to see if there's anything outside that. There's only a rare dot here and there outside the range.

think he's talking about "do a manual color correction pass " to try and tame this stuff maybe it'll handle all the dots.. hmm.. dunno how to do that. So maybe i can do some sort of manual color correction pass and wont have to kill it with this 100? Cause probably arent allowed ANY dots outside the range or they'll refuse it. How would i do this manual color correction pass.. isnt thats what this is? Like whats with these intermittent strays going on anyways.. i set it for a damn number shouldnt it stop everything? hmm.. was gonna post this version but if things are still screwed up maybe i gotta hang on for a sec till i can stop all the dots.

I'll just post this one in the meantime. I think what he said was do a color correction and then do the broadcast safe at the end. Looked at those color correction, and color correction (secondary) and dunno how to run it or what numbers to put. hey here's one thing i didnt think of doing.. re-running the broadcast safe on the exported file again instead of killing it so much maybe it'll catch that stuff.. i'll try that.

[smrpix]

The saturation on your original file was way too high, though your luminance levels were pretty good. If you're using a vectorscope (that round thing) you want it to end up looking like the one in the second screengrab I posted the other day.

[coolhotfun]

tried exporting an mxf with the IRE set to 100 so that way it'd be within the 119 later because things bounce back up. Tried running another broadcast safe plugin chain on it again but opened that up after and still stray dots like it did nothing. Plus i dont like rexporting things twice like that. I'll just post an mxf on the zippy share and you guys can check how bad those levels are and what i could do to tame those strays down. Should be more toned down than that one before.

I think those luminance levels on the file the other day were because i ran that premiere filter of broadcast safe. But there's a second option in there for saturation that i hadnt ran because if i'd add a second instance of it with sat checked off there was no visible difference. But then i didnt know about those graphs so maybe things were going on. On this test file i exported yesterday i did 2 instances of that premiere broadcast colors like that.. but this one 'll have the vegas settings. So i'll be back in a bit with that link. We'll start with that for now.

[coolhotfun]

ok.. uploaded that.. its 65mb 10 sec file. Do you like my short file name? lol

HD422_1920x1080-60i_50_Mbps_29-97_upper_-_pcm_16bit_stereo_48khz_-_vegas_broadcast_colors_100 IRE_-_10secs.mxf

can get that here but beware the popup after you enter the captcha.

http://www3.zippyshare.com/v/41617666/file.html

i gotta go to bed.. been burned out over this the past several days.

[coolhotfun]

couldnt sleep.. so yeah tested out uploading that .mxf to youtube and it comes out mono. If you open up that file in vegas and have headphones on, its obviously stereo. But that other guy was saying that the audio's ok. hmm. There was no video improvement though with that 360p version.. rough. oh well.. hope they get things correctly with the audio.

[poisondeathray]

Still too hot . When you ran the broadcast filter, did you have it "Reset to none" ? Try something like "conservative" and watch the vectorscope . Broadcast safe is 75% on the vectorscope, not 100%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vectorscope

The problem with doing it the lazy way with "auto" filters is you get abrupt transitions where the filter cuts values above the specified threshold . You can get ugly transitions, but it might be ok on this type of material. That's what smrpix was saying about doing it manually if you have the time

It's mono on youtube because you have mono tracks. That's what the XDCAM spec is. It's only the software splitter that assumes audio track 1 and 2 as L and R (e.g. Vegas automatically does this) . Inside the MXF, they are mono tracks . Other software might not, for example, youtube just takes the first audio track 1 and ignores audio track 2 ... But you said you checked and it was ok with with the guys you're sending it to


EDIT: I just re-read your spec sheet and they are ok with 120 IRE for chroma? That's exceptionally high

[coolhotfun]

oh you mean in premiere.. i'm looking at that orig source material. where there's a 100 and 75% in this all scopes window. the 100% seems to bring down the green in the circle more... but not the other 3 graphs. i dunno i gotta go to work lol

[coolhotfun]

ok.. rereading that again and looking at that vectorscope wiki page it sounds like you gotta have it set at 75% to be able to make sure things are broadcast safe. If its 100, things look low but they're not.

I was playing around with the premiere all scopes setting on 75% while I was adjusting the "color balance (HLS). Turning down the saturation while watching those scopes. You want the circle one to be all inside that line. Then there's those other graphs.. that red green blue one looks really maxed out. Then i can see an IRE number graph on the top left one. There's that 120 they're talking about. If i bring that saturation down -20.. the circle one, all the green is within the circle.

Noticed that other guy's screenshot the other day.

https://forum.videohelp.com/attachments/20688-1382292274/colorspp.png

Looks like he was trying to fix stuff.. I dont really know how to use the 3 way color corrector. What sorta settings is he doing in there. I'm looking at his settings compared to mine and things are different with my 3 way color corrector. Maybe he's using some different version. I see this master saturation number is 38. I think normal is 100 so maybe he's just turning down the sat.

But can i fix it with this simpler HLS by turning down the saturation only? At this -20 it kinda looks more bland like that one he's doing. But it doesnt seem to kill the highlights like that vegas broadcast colors was doing. With that it was taking some highlight areas and changing them to the surrounding area colors so it'd be the same.. was kinda taking a level of stuff out of it and making it look more the same color. I'd rather just have the colors less vivid like this than do that. I'll test stuff out with this later this afternoon and re-upload a new mxf and let me know if the colors are ok then.

[coolhotfun]

hey is there any feature where i can see the highest IRE level of a file? Kinda like in sound forge can do "find" and then choose "largest peak". Then i know where the loudest sound instance is and nothing 'll go over that so can turn it down. With this IRE graph it just shows for that moment so you'd have to play and watch to see where the highest peak is. Seems to be pretty consistent through the whole thing so i'll just kinda set it for something.

[later edit] ok exported one with the saturation turned down in premiere while i was watching the graphs. In vegas looking at it in the vectorscope and things look ok with no intermittent stray dots outside the area. I go to add the broadcast safe colors at 110 IRE and export it. Open that up and look at the vectorscope and now its got some dots peppered outside the allowable range. Almost better off not running the broadcast safe??? cause before it was all within the range so screw that.

ahh.. tried exporting it with no broadcast safe and there's some different stray ones, so it must be the file type conversion. I guess i'll have to run the safe with a lower level like 100 again.

Because of those stray dots, i'm having to turn down the damn saturation too much. Trying again in premiere with the color balance HLS by also turning down the lightness as well as the sat. Just killing all the neon bright colors too much. This might be a way to get those dots down without killing the colors. Have to turn the saturation down a bit though cause even if i lower the lightness its too close to the limit.

Looks like i might have gotten it. In color balance HLS lowered the lightness to -10 and the sat -20. Then in vegas did broadcast colors 100IRE. Opened the exported file and had 2-3 stray dots but they were around 113.. so below the 120 limit. I'm uploading it and you guys can let me know if its still too hot.

[coolhotfun]

ok here's that attempt to try and get it under 120 IRE. 65mb.

HD422_1920x1080-60i_50_Mbps_29-97_upper_-_pcm_16bit_stereo_48khz_-_lowered_HLS_lightness-10_saturation-20__and_vegas_broadcast_colors_100-IRE__10secs.mxf

http://www72.zippyshare.com/v/92929707/file.html

[coolhotfun]

well.. if everthing's allright with the

•Black levels: 0 IRE for HD
•Ensure broadcast safe chroma levels (below 120 IRE)

now i gotta start moving towards figuring out:

•Closed Captioning is required for all FINAL deliveries

cause they'll charge $300 per video to do captions. So gonna start where i got a tip about that.

They recommend this site.. http://www.cpcweb.com/ This is something that i'm probably gonna have to buy.

one thing in the "Pay Close Attention To The Following" where they talk about captions, is:

"• Include a blank, safety caption at the start of the video".

I had talked to the help guy a bit about that and he said its some kind of trigger to sync things. So now i gotta start looking at doing captions. I'll start by checking that site and see if there's some trial software and tutorial tips. For now i gotta leave this color test stuff for a day or so until i find out if things are ok.. but yeah, thats what next.. the captions.

Maybe gonna start here..

http://www.cpcweb.com/solutions/adobe.htm

have no clue about this crap. Was watching a music video tv station yesterday looking at the captions.. and sounds like they got this musical note before and after lyrics. But my stuff is instrumental so i dunno.. but i'll uh, try and get the ball rolling with this. Unless somebody's got some tips on some sort of free captions software out there. I gotta really start with the basics like maybe tutorial videos of how its even done. So it'll be a while on this but gotta get rolling cause that vegas is gonna expire soon.

Browsing around.. think i might need another drink here, to kickstart the mojo.

[coolhotfun]

in the meantime.. watching one of their videos and noticed this part where it shows an example of a video QC report checklist. One side it says "your file" and the other side it says notes... and it'll have a green light or red flag. ok at the start it says "video wrapper: mxf, mov & mpg recommended." So thats where they talk about file types i was wondering about. It goes down.. one part it says

black levels: warning 1 issue encountered.. pass
chroma levels: warning: 2 issues encountered.. pass
video quality: warning 0 blockiness, 14 general issues encountered, pass.
black tail: warning 2 issues encountered.. pass

betcha i'm gonna get lotsa flags on my crap. Especially where it says "blockiness".. lol.
Whats "black tail".. never seen that mentioned anywhere before.
My sh** is gonna fail on so many levels, i guarantee it.

Later the audio part.. one said this:

audio loudness.. pass. Notes: must be within 2 LKFS of -24 LKFS (auto-fixed)

What the hell is LKFS.. i never seen no guage to even know what settings mines are at.

Then there's captions.

* CEA-608 closed captions.. your file: pass.. notes: required, but not always dectected.
* CEA-708 closed captions.. your file: pass.. notes: required, but not always dectected.
slate/ start of message.. not currently able to detect.. required for broadcast
AFD flag. Warning: no AFD flag detected. Currently optional.

Whats an AFD flag?

so yeah.. major red flags anticipated when i do get my crap up.

[Cornucopia]

You do know what Google is, don't you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Format_Description
http://www.tvtechnology.com/inside-audio/0176/lkfs-amp-the-calm-act/208806
and black tails are black forms of video comet noise

Scott

[poisondeathray]

Most NLE's can do closed captions as well (vegas can) . Use google there are guides and help videos

[coolhotfun]

got a text file of things i gotta look up.

----------------------------------------

https://mega.co.nz/

"• Include a blank, safety caption at the start of the video".

http://www.cpcweb.com/solutions/adobe.htm
black levels: warning 1 issue encountered.. pass
chroma levels: warning: 2 issues encountered.. pass
video quality: warning 0 blockiness, 14 general issues encountered, pass.
black tail: warning 2 issues encountered.. pass


audio loudness.. pass. Notes: must be within 2 LKFS of -24 LKFS (auto-fixed)

* CEA-608 closed captions.. your file: pass.. notes: required, but not always dectected.
* CEA-708 closed captions.. your file: pass.. notes: required, but not always dectected.
slate/ start of message.. not currently able to detect.. required for broadcast
AFD flag. Warning: no AFD flag detected. Currently optional.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Format_Description

http://www.tvtechnology.com/inside-audio/0176/lkfs-amp-the-calm-act/208806

------------------------------

ok.. trying to figure out stuff on my own. I tried to look-up what "black tail" was, and i think its when there's black screen at the end for too long?

It said.. "black tail: warning 2 issues encountered.. pass" How could that guy have 2 issues about it. Wouldnt it just be one if the black screen was too long?

come on ya guys.. its a video help forum. Ya dont just go in every thread and say "go look it up on google".

so yeah.. that hosting.. i kinda gotta leave that for last when i know how big the file size is gonna be then look for hosting that can handle it. I also would rather not have to log in but probably would have to. The dropbox, i think somebody sent me something one time and had to make a bloody account. Thats bad.. shouldnt have to make an account to download the file. However, i have heard of dropbox and think it might be the more popular one with maybe no bad popups.. hmm. ok so thats the to-do list guys.. get crackin'. lol

i also didnt hear back from anybody if that last .mxf color levels were broadcast safe. Hustle it up ya guys.. vegas is expiring.

So yeah, looking for some free caption software. Hows that all work anyways.. is it some type of extra file that you add with the video? or is it part of the .mxf.

can ya guys go read all the stuff and give me a coles notes for dummies, version? thanks in advance, groucho.

[coolhotfun]

something like this?

[coolhotfun]

ok.. tackle this one at a time here. Lets start with.. they say:

•Black levels: 0 IRE for HD

ok where do i check for black levels? I did a search in premiere and the only mention of it is in the color correctors where it has this "auto black level" button. I'm not seeing any IRE about it so how do i know if mine's correct? I'm guessing if its off it'd be more grey than black or something when its supposed to be a black screen.

And then there was that checkbox of X setup (7.5 IRE) that's supposed to be unchecked. I think that has to do with PAL in foreign countries where its supposed to be 7.5 but here its supposed to be 0. Is that all they mean by this "•Black levels: 0 IRE for HD" is to make sure you uncheck that 7.5 box? cause uh, i gotta make sure i get things correct here. Ya buncha sticks in the mud.. lets go!

like i was surfing around tonight and noticed this video where it looked like the black levels are off.. is this the kind of thing they're talking about? cause how are you supposed to make sure its for sure black instead of grey?

[poisondeathray]

For black level look at the waveform monitor

[coolhotfun]

not getting much help here in the VideoHELP.com forum.