BluRay Region Coding Announced - Japan & US Same Region

[adam]

As far as region coding being about money and profit, well no kidding. That's why they are called for profit corporations. All decisions are based on bottom lines. Bringing this up is stating the obvious, and getting angry about it is just plain naive. The question Cobra asked was not why they do it, it was how they can get away with it. Parallel importing is indeed one of the justifications of region protection. The article that Gulleyfoyle posted in rebuttal even acknowledges this. The bottom line is that the arguments that people make about region protection relate to anticompetitive behavior and this practice is simply not the type of thing covered in Antitrust legislation.

Region coding is a bully tactic. Its based on greed and control. But its not illegal.

[edDV]

Since some of us defend the status quo no matter what it is ALWAYS useful to have another viewpoint.
...
Profit, profit, profit and consumers be damned.
Now you know the truth about region coding and greedy big media.

I'd like to see your top ten list of non-profit* DVD releases.

Personal attack on adam is not a substitute for arguement.


* Many movies loose investor money. I mean movies that were produced with no intention for profit.

[ROF]

Most countries do not allow it and that is one of the things that region coding seeks to control.

I never understood region coding. If you can purchase something that isn't available in your region of the globe or at a cheaper price with shipping from somewhere else you should be allowed to do so. The media producers still get their money. Your not stealing it. Your just buying it from a place you choose to do business with.

[adam]

Just do a google search on parallel importing or grey maket goods. Basically the country of import loses out on lots of business, money and taxes, so that's why they usually don't allow it. It also circumvents their local laws such as those effecting product description and ratings.

Copyrights and trademarks are national laws. The right to distribute a film in France is a completely different right than the one that lets you distribute it in the US. The rights are typically owned by many different distributors. Parallel importing is when you import a DVD when it is not yet licensed for sale in your country. If Buena Vista distributes it only in the country of export, and Paramount ultimately distributes it in your country, you have just cut out a sale for Paramount, and 3rd parties can exploit this due to the artificial demand. This leads to price gouging. Also since the exporting is illegal it violates the manufacturer warranty meaning that the consumer has no protection against faulty goods.

Most importantly the importing undercuts the local market. The manufacturer, distributer, and retailer don't get that business and, like I said, your country didn't collect any of the taxes.

What I always tell people about parallel importing also is that its not just something that applies to DVDs or media companies. The most common grey market goods are blue jeans.

[smearbrick1]

The most common grey market goods are blue jeans.

I assume this is why they limit individual purchases of Levi's jeans to 5 pairs per person. This is done to limit one's ability to export?

[adam]

No idea but I do know that Levi's is known for being extremely restrictive of its jeans, and alot of that is due to the huge grey market for them.

[pchan]

* Many movies loose investor money. I mean movies that were produced with no intention for profit.

Michael Moore ... with his loud hailer in Washington...

[pchan]

No idea but I do know that Levi's is known for being extremely restrictive of its jeans, and alot of that is due to the huge grey market for them.

Lavi's makes quality jeans... cost 5X as much and last 5X longer....

[ROF]

Just do a google search on parallel importing or grey maket goods. Basically the country of import loses out on lots of business, money and taxes, so that's why they usually don't allow it. It also circumvents their local laws such as those effecting product description and ratings.

If a country doesn't offer a product at a specific date a consumer wants to purchase it or at a price for which the consumer is willing to pay there shouldn't be any laws about doing so. That's my opinion anyways. I don't agree with region coding or different release dates especially those countries who have to wait significantly longer. In those cases, a person should be able to import said goods from a foreign land. If the country they are importing to feels they are losing out perhaps a tariff of some time should be added but a paying consumer should never be denied the right to purchase something anywhere they wish to.

[adam]

I tend to agree with you but there are a ton of variables and for some countries it would really hurt them substantially. The fact of the matter is that consumer type importing that you are talking about isn't heavily regulated and isn't why parallel importing is outlawed. The laws are intended to stop mass importing for commercial sales. A guy dumping 10's of thousands of grey market goods into the market each year really does cause alot of damage to that local economy.

[guns1inger]

On the other hand, prohibiting parallel imports leaves the consumer at the mercy of large corporations such as the movie and music studios. Study after study shows that where they are not challenged, they will gouge the consumer for whatever they can get. Market forces (i.e. competition) isn't in play, so the consumer has nowhere to go. You end up woth tariffs and protectionist policies that create an artificial economy, and ultimately wind up paying some producers to stop producing because there is no real market for their product anymore.

There was a huge outcry about the opening of the Australian market to parallel importing of CDs. It would destroy all new artists, piracy would be rampant , quality would drop, and the consumer would see very little difference in prices. Well, it took a few years before prices really dropped, but the industry is the same as it ever was (slowly losing money while the online world leaves them behind), and there is no proof that piracy is any worse than it might ever have been. DVDs and software have also been in the sights of our competition depertment, as it is obvious that in many cases we get screwed on both price and availability compared to many overseas markets.

[adam]

Just to clarify, Aus. didn't open up parallel importing generally, only for personal importing (personal use) which like I said is a practice that is never that heavily regulated anyway. Also your country's website has a fantastic primer on their decision to allow personal imports and as it describes, it was anything but a black and white decision. If you read it you'll see that the major factor in swaying them to allow it was the fact that another area unaffected by the change (New Zealand? Its been a while since I've read it) has some extremely strict copyright/importing restrictions and that this would offset the effects of allowing parallel importing. So you see parallel importing hurts some countries/economies much more than others and its for that country to decide what's best for them.

Copyrights expressly permit the artist to decide when and if to license their work for sale in any given country. So if you view creating artificial demand through staggering releases as consumer gouging, which I think is a fair claim, then corporations can accomplish this anyway even without parallel importing legislation, they'd just have to enforce it themselves. Instead, the country of import stops it at the border since its in their interest as well usually. Honestly, when I consider all the underhanded tools, lawful and unlawful, that corporations have at their disposal I find parallel importing bans to be pretty tame. For the average consumer you'd never notice them. You can always pick things up on vacation and bring them back with you. You can usually mail order them in small quantities without having them confiscated. But Joe Douchebag is going to get busted if he tries to import 10,000 unlicensed pairs of blue jeans.

[guns1inger]

Sorry to correct you, but Australia did open up parallel importing of music CDs for retailers. A number of major retail chains began to import CDs via alternate channels and were able to reduce CD prices by up to 30%.

For items such as software it is different, and for movies, different again. Movies (and video games) are regulated through the classification board. It is illegal to distribute or show movies that have not been reviewed by the board. The board will do one of three things - grant a rating, refuse a rating, or exempt a film from needing to be rated (this is reserved for documentaries and film festivals with limited exposure). A film that is refused classification cannot be shown - note the furor over Ken Park a couple of years back. While a small purchases usually get through customs (4 discs or less), anything larger is often scrutinised, and material that has been refused classification can be confiscated for good.

[adam]

Don't be sorry. I refreshed my memory and I was thinking about films not music, and I was apparantly thinking of New Zealand It still runs a great site for learning all about the lifting of the ban on parallel importing in Aus.

[thevoelk]

Adam, just to clarify parallel importing, buying one or two copies of, for exapmle, Revolver from amazon.uk (I think it's going to be released on DVD in the UK before theatres in the US) is legal or at least looked the other way, but if I were to buy 500 copies and sell them that's where the problem starts?

The reason I ask is where does the responsibility lie? Should it be with Amazon for knowingly selling and shipping the grey market product, or is it on the consumer to be honest? I doubt the average consumer knows about parallel importing (I didn't before this thread), or would understand the legal aspect of it.

[adam]

If amazon sells a DVD to a market before it receives its DVD, or before the theatrical release in that country, its probably because the DVD is licensed for sale in that country as well. The manufacturer has that right, they can authorize vendors to export the good to other countries. But I bet amazon.uk wouldn't ship you 500 copies without questioning your purposes first.

As for who is responsible, the exporter is. The importer/purchaser can usually be held responsible too but only if they had reason to know the goods were grey market. If you are purchasing from a reputable company like Amazon then you'd be in the clear.

Parallel importing is a customs violation so in most cases what happens is that the goods just get seized at the border.

[rainingwolf]

I am very new to this forum-first post, actually. I just want to ask a serious question-not trying to start any ]arguments. If Gully Foyle is "Banned", why do his posts keep appearing? In other forums I belong to, once a person is banned, you don't hear from them again. Can someone explain the banning policy here? Thanks...

[usually_quiet]

I am very new to this forum-first post, actually. I just want to ask a serious question-not trying to start any ]arguments. If Gully Foyle is "Banned", why do his posts keep appearing? In other forums I belong to, once a person is banned, you don't hear from them again. Can someone explain the banning policy here? Thanks... :?:

You are most likely looking at old threads, like this one. The post preceding yours is almost three years old. However, one or two legit members have included "Banned" under their membership status as a joke.

[jagabo]

GullyFoyle hasn't posted anything in nearly two years. Old posts from banned members are not deleted.

And why do you revive this old thread just to ask that as your first post? Looking to get banned too?

[rainingwolf]

I am very new to this forum-first post, actually. I just want to ask a serious question-not trying to start any ]arguments. If Gully Foyle is "Banned", why do his posts keep appearing? In other forums I belong to, once a person is banned, you don't hear from them again. Can someone explain the banning policy here? Thanks...

You are most likely looking at old threads, like this one. The post preceding yours is almost three years old. However, -one or two legit members have included "Banned" under their membership status as a joke.

----
Thanks, I appreciate your answer. I didn't realize the post was old. As for the commenter who asked if I was looking to get banned, too--no--I am very new to this and will probably make some silly mistakes-I apologize in advance and will try to learn from them and not make them a second time.

[jagabo]

I though you might be trying to stir up trouble -- your first and only post about someone being banned years ago. Besides, seeing this thread reminded me of ROF! Yuck! LOL

[FulciLives]

I've had a Sony PS3 since December of 2007 and I've only run across one Blu-Ray import that I would have bought but did not as it was a UK BD that was coded Region B and I am in the USA with Region A. Ironically I read a review of this BD that said it was 1080p 23.976fps even though it was a UK release. Apparently 1080p 25fps is rather rare from what I've read.

I did see a BD player on some website that claimed to be able to play both Region A and Region B Blu-Ray as long as it was 23.976fps and not 25fps (this was geared for USA sales) but they wanted nearly twice the price of a PS3 (something like $750 USD). That's outrageous!

I remember reading many moons ago that Oppo Digital was working on a BD player ... I guess we can hope that will be region free without costing an arm and a leg.

Also I suppose you can buy any region BD and rip it and back-it up and then play it on a PS3 as M2TS or as AVCHD on a regular BD player but that's a lot of work and I as-of-yet don't have a BD drive on my computer. Hell I need a newer faster computer before I would want one anyways.

As for ROF ... I wonder what insane asylum he managed to get himself into?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[DereX888]

Europe seems to get screwed.

Europe screws herself mostly, there is no need for anyone else to screw her over

OT:
Last time I was in Paris on many occasions I thought I'm somewhere in Africa, not in Europe LOL
The junk and garbage on the streets, the apathy on the face of apparently bored local inhabitants, the ghetto-style "decorations" present everywhere... yup, Region 5 basically starts in Europe now, even though officially it is still R2

[Nilfennasion]

Fulci, I think the reason 25FPS is presently rare on BD is because it does not convert very well or easily to other framerates that are more film-friendly. I think my TV only supports 30FPS for 1080P material, but 23.976 and 24 are easier to convert to 30 than is 25. Also note that the old process for converting films to 25 FPS involved increasing the speed and pitch of the audio by 4%/a semitone, which is definitely frowned upon by BD authors for a good reason.

I could be mistaken about the logic here, but the mechanics of making a 24FPS film 25 means we are not likely to see any 25 BDs unless the content was 25 to begin with.

I have joked with family members that the real reason the Australian dollar has fallen back to ~67 US cents is because Sony, Paramount, Fox, et al complained to the US government, who in turn had a word with the Australian government, and they agreed to lower the rate. When the exchange rate was 90+ US cents to the Australian dollar, I bought about two dozen BDs. I think maybe two of them were purchased locally. Every time I see Americans bitch about the price of a new luxury product like BD or videogames, I wonder what it would take to make them grok the fact that if the producers did not have secondary markets like Europe or Australia that they can gouge with a vengeance, they would be paying at least three times as much.

[paulw]

Hey Nilfennasion,

Don't forget us across the dich with our peso now around 55cUS

[jagabo]

23.976 and 24 are easier to convert to 30 than is 25.

Not really.

When the TV is receiving 1080i30 a 24p source goes through 3:2 pulldown to create 30i. 25p sources go through 3:2:3:2:2 pulldown to create 30i. A progressive HDTV will deinterlace or IVTC and display at 60 frames per second. An interlaced HDTV (pretty much limited to CRT) will display one field at a time, 60 fields per second.

When the device is transmitting 1080p60, 24p sources have frames duplicated in a 3-2 repeat pattern. 25p source would repeat with a 3-2-3-2-2 pattern. The final display on the TV is 60 frames per second. If the device is transmitting 1080p24 or 1080p25 (and the TV accepts it) the TV will perform the frame repeats to 60 frames per second.

I suspect the real reason BD movies are left at 24p is simply because that's the native frame rate of those movies. Might as well let the player or TV handle the frame rate conversion to the TV's native frame rate. Modern players and TVs are all digital so they have no problems converting frame rates. DVD was spec'd in the days of mostly interlaced analog displays which couldn't perform frame rate conversions. So the conversion had to be done before making the DVD.

[DereX888]

Yes, our TVs are getting smarter by the minutes.
Mine told me yesterday to not bother it because it is sleeping - and it hasn't wake up till today yet... I'm afraid it fall asleep forever
I'm worry that if I have to replace it, the new one will be so smart it'll call FBI as soon as I feed it with any DVD-R! Damn, I miss those dumb CRTs.

[edDV]

23.976 and 24 are easier to convert to 30 than is 25.

Not really.
...

I suspect the real reason BD movies are left at 24p is simply because that's the native frame rate of those movies. Might as well let the player or TV handle the frame rate conversion to the TV's native frame rate. Modern players and TVs are all digital so they have no problems converting frame rates. DVD was spec'd in the days of mostly interlaced analog displays which couldn't perform frame rate conversions. So the conversion had to be done before making the DVD.

The film community remains locked to 24p and as always the video side adapts. The main reason for 24p is the worshiped library of classic film and TV series. The "NTSC" world has reached accommodation with 120Hz (119.88 actual) displays. Slower displays still need adaptive field/frame repeat accommodation. The reason is simple math.

23.976 x 5 = 119.88, also
29.970 x 4 = 119.88, also
59.940 x 2 = 119.88

The "PAL" world remains odd man out with 25 fps. The adjustment remains 4% speed up (with audio processing) which is what "PAL" version Blu-Ray players do with 24p source. Blu-Ray movie discs can be 24p world wide with all localization done in the local player. As far as I know, this was the film industry plan. Of course, 25i/25p broadcast source is a different story.

"Hollywood" et al still shoot TV series 24p but mostly still edit separate 29.97i (telecine) and 25i (sped up) 1080i for world markets. In ~2005, AVID et al introduced 24p edit process for TV series with Blu-Ray in mind. A 24p master can be distributed either way. In time this will become the norm.