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  1. I'd check to see how your computer graphics card is set up and set the Oppo the same way . . . ?

    My preference is to work in full 0-255 range as much as possible and adjust your video to fit - to most intents and purposes - within the restricted broadcast range. If there are a few high or low spots outside the 16-235 range - especially on lights or in the sky etc. - then I'm not going to lose sleep over it. Having said all that, I'm happy to be told I'm wrong by some of the others on this thread - many of them are W-A-Y more experienced at this than I am.
    Last edited by TimA-C; 9th Sep 2020 at 16:22. Reason: Clarity
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    Last edited by Avagadro1; 22nd Mar 2021 at 17:00.
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  3. You do NOT need to make two tapes. If you do things right, the video should look good on both the computer and the TV.

    The obvious piece of advice is to create video that looks good on your TV when played from a DVD player. That chain is relatively fixed compared to a computer. The problem with computers is that they can be set to do just about anything, whereas a TV is "hard-wired" to a certain set of standards. That last statement is a little less true now than it was when we all used NTSC (or PAL) CRT TVs, but there are certainly still a lot fewer variables than when playing back on a computer.

    I don't think I know of ANYONE who makes two copies of their videos, one for the computer and one for TV just so the colors and levels will look OK on each.
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  4. Have you tried your discs on somebody else's equipment yet? That should tell you whether you have a problem with your DVD player & TV settings or your PC's graphics settings. Two discs is just idiotic. Sorry.
    "Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Captain Malcolm Reynolds
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    Originally Posted by TimA-C View Post
    Have you tried your discs on somebody else's equipment yet? That should tell you whether you have a problem with your DVD player & TV settings or your PC's graphics settings. Two discs is just idiotic. Sorry.
    This whole thread is idiotic, lets be honest
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  6. Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post
    I use a “Datacolor Spyder3 Elite” to calibrate my computer monitor (for working on still images in Photoshop). I believe my COLOR calibration is spot on;
    That has nothing to do with video calibration. Video uses a subsystem with separate calibration settings. Look at your graphics card's setup applet and check the settings in the "video" or "media" settings. That section contains all the Auto controls (contrast, color, skin tone, noise reduction, etc.) which do nothing but ruin the picture (all the manual controls are there too -- those are the ones you should be looking at). And they are often on by default.
    Last edited by jagabo; 12th Sep 2020 at 22:15.
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    Last edited by Avagadro1; 22nd Mar 2021 at 17:00.
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  8. Download the video in this post:

    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/374734-Superblacks-and-superwhites-question#post2414529

    When played on your computer or TV it should look like the second (bottom) image in that post. The black background around the dark bars should be as dark as your monitor/TV can get. The black bars from 000 to 015 (the numbers above each dark bar) should be the same shade of black as the background. The white background around the light bars should be as bright at your monitor/TV is currently set to display. The light bars from 235 to 255 (the numbers above the light bars) should all be the same shade of white as background. If the picture on the monitor or TV looks like the first (top) image in the post the device is set up incorrectly.

    The numbers below each bar are the RGB values those bars should have when the video is displayed on the screen. On a computer you can use a tool like CSamp to check those RGB values.

    Keep in mind that most TV's have separate settings for each input. So just because you calibrated one input doesn't mean the other are calibrated too.

    By the way, on the Win10 computer I'm using now the Input Range setting appears at the bottom of the Video section of the Intel Graphics Command Center. You have to scroll the page down to see it. It should be set to "Limited".
    Last edited by jagabo; 13th Sep 2020 at 08:35.
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    Last edited by Avagadro1; 22nd Mar 2021 at 17:01.
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  10. YUV video, as in the MPEG file, normally has the black level at Y=16, and the white level at Y=235, ie, limited range. On conversion for display that 16-235 range is contrast stretched to 0-255 RGB. Any Y values below 16 are "crushed" to RGB=0, and any any Y values over 235 are crushed at RGB=235. That's why you can't see any of the bars below 16, they are all rendered on the screen at RGB=0, and the bars above 235 are all rendered at RGB=255. In my chart the numbers at the top of the bars are the Y values withing the video, the numbers at the bottom of the bars is the expected RGB value that's rendered on the screen.

    So your computer is set up correctly. It's performing the expected contrast stretch for limited range YUV to full range RGB. It's your DVD player or TV that's set up incorrectly.

    The chroma upsampling error doesn't effect the brightness of the video. It's has to do with the way some player incorrectly upsampled interlaced YUV 4:2:0 chroma to RGB 4:4:4. You can see it described here:

    https://hometheaterhifi.com/technical/technical-reviews/the-chroma-upsampling-error-an...hroma-problem/

    The colorspace control determines whether the player outputs YCbCr (often called YUV) or RGB over the HDMI cable. In the case of YCbCr you can either have the DVD's 4:2:0 chroma upsampled to 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling ). In the case of RGB you chose to perform the usual limited range YUV to RGB contrast stretch (what your computer is doing) or not. This is where your problem is occurring. Both of the devices must agree on what's being transmitted. Generally, if you choose to output RGB it should be full range 0-255 and the TV should be set to display that without any further contrast stretch. If you choose to output YCbCr it will be limited range and the TV should do the conversion to full range RGB.
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    Last edited by Avagadro1; 22nd Mar 2021 at 17:01.
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  12. Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post
    My Sony TV has, for each HDMI input, all the usual picture-adjustment sliders. However, I am not aware of any function on the TV to select among the various YCbrCr (YUV) or RGB colorspaces. If not selectable as such, I assume that the TV automatically determines the input as Full Range 0-255 (and leaves it alone) or Limited Range 16-235 (and converts it to Full Range).
    I wouldn't assume anything. Experiment to see what works correctly.

    Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post
    Since my Oppo disc player has five HDMI output colorspace options: “RGB Video” (which I assume is Limited Range), RGB PC (which I assume is Full Range),
    Again, I wouldn't assume that. Sometimes devices are confusingly labeled.

    Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post
    YCbCr 4:4:4; or YCbCr 4:2:2 (you explained that YCbCr is Limited Range)
    Usually. But again, don't assume, check.

    Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post
    or I can set HDMI Output colorspace to “Auto”, which among these five options would you recommend ---- especially in light of my current situation where the devices are apparently not in concert, and showing it.
    Pick one that works and gives the correct levels on the TV. Some of them may not work on some TVs (that's one reason the options are there). I would select YCbCr first as it's likely to be supported and have the correct levels. Regarding the Auto setting: HDMI is a smart interconnect -- the two devices can negotiate the best connection, hence the Auto setting. But that negotiation doesn't always work properly. And I don't think levels is part of that negotiation. In the absence of settings on the TV, the TV may simply assume limited range for YCbCr, or full range for RGB (the most common).

    If you force the player to output full range RGB, and some of your sources have illegal darks and brights, you will not be able to recover them by adjusting the TV's proc amp -- the TV has no way of knowing which of the blacks was originally darker than Y=16, which brights were brighter than Y=235.

    Also note that RGB requires more bandwidth than 4:2:2 YCbCr. So long cables, marginal connections, etc. may not work with RGB but do OK with 4:2:2 YCbCr.

    Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post
    Importantly (perhaps), your specific words were: “. . . the TV should be set to display that without any further contrast stretch [emphasis added].” Here, are you here referring to the matter of the TV automatically stretching RGB 16-235 to RGB 0-255,
    Yes, if the player is already performing the YUV->RGB contrast stretch you don't want the TV do to it again. Otherwise the picture will have too much contrast; dark shades which should be visible won't be, light shades which should be visible won't be.

    Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post
    or are you referring to the manual “CONTRAST/PICTURE” adjustment slider applicable to the HDMI input? (If the latter, then I would assume it should be set at 50% and thereafter left alone.)
    You may or may not want to make further adjustments at the TV for some videos. But with it correctly set up you know you're starting with the correct setup. I don't know that "50%" is neutral -- such settings vary from manufacturer to manufacturer, model to model. Again, that's something you have to check.

    Originally Posted by Avagadro1 View Post
    And finally, if we expand the issue to consider the VHS captured and edited videos, I note that I am capturing using PotPlayer and editing in Adobe Premier Elements. Using PotPlayer for capture, one can choose the output colorspace from MANY options. The ones I recognize by name include YUY2 4:2:2, YUV 4:2:0, RGB-24, RGB-32, but there are many others. And further, PotPlayer's capture colorspace function has a number of "convert" options, such as YUV to Limited RGB or to Full RGB. In light of the entire shebang (a technical term!), including the ultimate destination being DVDs, would you suggest I set PotPlayer’s colorspace capture output to YUY2, RGB-24, and (or not) to convert to Full RGB 0-255 or Limited RGB 16-235?
    I don't use Premiere but I've read many times that it makes wrong assumptions about levels with some containers/codecs. You'll have to experiment with that too.
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