TBC advice for HDV tapes + HDV tape deck?

[dterranova]

Hi everyone, happy to have found this community.

I'm about to start a film project digging up 50 of my HDV tapes from back in the day.
I have little time on my hands as I thought I'd be day 3 into digitizing by now, but there's been lots of stumbling blocks that have set me back, the latest of which leads me to ask about Time Base Correctors. I realize it's a popular topic in here, but I'm getting info overload and would love to get some straight recommendations and advice for my specific setup, as I've already blown days in unexpected troubleshooting.

I have a Sony HVR 1500A, a AJA U Tap (SDI), an intel macbook (USB2 and TB - the square kind) and a flashed MacPro (with a funky USB3/TB3 card that's not super reliable with some devices).

I'm getting some major time slippage and stuttering when connecting the tapedeck to the AJA. I spoke with AJA's tech support and they recommended a TBC, something which I know nothing about and I'm suddenly discovering a whole world of, which frankly I would be interested in nerding out about but just don't have the time for.

Would any of you be able to recommend something that would work specific to my case?

I'm looking for something standalone, that can go between the tapedeck SDI-OUT and AJA U Tap SDI-IN.

Needless to say I just need the quality to be as high as possible.

Thanks!

DT


[apologies for the double post, I messed up the title in the last one]

[smrpix]

That's a great deck, but HDV should always and only be transferred by firewire.

On a modern mac it means some strange combination of FW400->FW800->TB A direct cable will not work.

The TBC is only good for solving problems the unnecessary AJA card is causing.

[dterranova]

Yeah I know, that's what's so frustrating about this.

I do have all those connectors. I have a iLink > FW800 cable and a converter to TB, which I tried with an old Sony cam (the one that filmed these tapes) going into my intel mac. The mac didn't recognize it, so I ended up doing a whole other route that went into the macbook's HDMI from one of the Component outs of the camera (or the other similar one I can't remember)... not great quality.

[Barrythecrab]

Perhaps getting a used/refurbed Windows lappy with FW for short money would be a good investment. W7x64 OS would be a plus, useful in your endeavor.

[dterranova]

oh wow really? I mean I have a fw macbook in storage I could dig out, but would rather avoid.

just trying to understand: is a TBC not recommended due to loss of quality? Or is the AJA itself losing quality also?

[dellsam34]

TBC is for analog tapes, you don't need it, HDV tapes are digital, they need to be transferred via firewire a.k.a iLink bit prefect with no loss. What you are doing now is decoding HDV stream and transferring raw AVI 4:2:2 via SDI by the deck, while creating problems for yourself in the process due to high data rate, just get a computer with fire wire and transfer HDV to computer.

[Bwaak]

It would be proper - and cheaper - to do it via Firewire losslessly. I've seen iLink -> FW800 -> TB working both for Mac and Windows, but haven't tried myself. A refurbished Windows machine is about $150, add $15 for a Firewire card.

[aedipuss]

on some macs thunderbolt was the same as firewire. you say you have a square tb port. it maybe a 4 wire firewire port. does the end of the firewire cable that goes into the HDV cam also go into the mac? if so you just need a 4 wire to 4 wire firewire cable.

[dterranova]

Gotcha, thanks for explaining. I was advised to do it this way, I think because of the assumption that I wasn't going to do FW, and honestly it's all been quite rushed so I didn't get the full picture until you painted it pretty well. Thanks.

I'm not fixated on going the AJA route, nor did I realize it'd be at such a loss of quality - which I'm still unclear as to how much loss there would be or how much of it, or what the range of TBCs is (quality vs cost). At this point I just want to find the quickest / most efficient route to start digitizing.

Should I just get a basic laptop with FW400 like Barrythecrab suggested? Or even a FW400 card for the macpro if they even exist.

I actually just tried connecting the HVR with a FW400/FW800 cable to my macpro, but Premiere's not seeing it. It only works with FW400 right?

I appreciate your help!

[dterranova]

It would be proper - and cheaper - to do it via Firewire losslessly. I've seen iLink -> FW800 -> TB working both for Mac and Windows, but haven't tried myself. A refurbished Windows machine is about $150, add $15 for a Firewire card.

Just tried it with the FW400>FW800>TB going into the macbook. Getting a timecode! but no feed.
I only remember doing this through FW400 back in the day. When you mention Windows machine you mean one with FW400?

[dterranova]

a 4 wire to 4 wire firewire cable.

I had to say this out loud really fast to hear how it sounded haha

Not sure what you mean about 4 wire FW though, but I think you mean the FW400/800/TB adaptors, which I've been trying in the last hour with both FW800 and TB machines.

[Bwaak]

It would be proper - and cheaper - to do it via Firewire losslessly. I've seen iLink -> FW800 -> TB working both for Mac and Windows, but haven't tried myself. A refurbished Windows machine is about $150, add $15 for a Firewire card.

Just tried it with the FW400>FW800>TB going into the macbook. Getting a timecode! but no feed.
I only remember doing this through FW400 back in the day. When you mention Windows machine you mean one with FW400?

When I mention Windows machine I mean either Firewire, which is native for HDV, or Thunderbolt 3, which is a sort of a hack, but there are numerous videos that it works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW2Bbn_OjNA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GASIuX1mqwE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsb13ivdyQI

[dterranova]

It would be proper - and cheaper - to do it via Firewire losslessly. I've seen iLink -> FW800 -> TB working both for Mac and Windows, but haven't tried myself. A refurbished Windows machine is about $150, add $15 for a Firewire card.

Just tried it with the FW400>FW800>TB going into the macbook. Getting a timecode! but no feed.
I only remember doing this through FW400 back in the day. When you mention Windows machine you mean one with FW400?

When I mention Windows machine I mean either Firewire, which is native for HDV, or Thunderbolt 3, which is a sort of a hack, but there are numerous videos that it works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW2Bbn_OjNA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GASIuX1mqwE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsb13ivdyQI

Awesome, thanks for these great vids. I'm gonna check them next. I've just got the FW400>TB into the macbook and it's getting some sort of feed! The preview window in Premiere is seeing it, but super stuttered. When I hit record it spits out a 25Mbit/s video with all the glitches removed and seems to be pretty high quality! Although the file is an .ac3 wrapping an mpeg4, which I don't think you can change good old adobe. I've gotta figure out the next steps, capture it through other software, to really see if this connection is stable enough. It was pretty erratic at first.

[dterranova]

I've been digging into this for the last few hours. It's been a long day since I started out with this AJA setup that I'm now on the verge of scrapping, thanks to the advice in here. It's so close, but still some issues.

Whether I connect the HVR to the macbook via FW400>FW800>TB or the macpro via FW400>FW800, I'm getting a picture!
- In premiere, the preview window stutters, but once I record it's a clean video. But no options to set the quality or codec.
- In OBS, I get a clean picture, can customize the output, but I get no audio. It's a common issue over at the OBS forums.
- Quicktime is clean, fewer options, but also gets no audio.


- What recommended workflows or tips would you guys/guysettes advise considering these things?
- What codec / setting should I be saving these files to? I would've liked to have ProRes422, but is that an unnecessary upscaling?

[Bwaak]

When you capture DV or HDV, normally you don't choose a codec unless you want to re-encode on the fly. DV is captured into DV-AVI on Windows or Quicktime-DV on Mac. HDV is captured into a transport stream with MPEG-2 video and MP2 audio, this is how it is encoded on tape (maybe captured into a different container on Mac, not sure). You can re-encode it later if you want. Bitrate is about 25 Mbit/s for either DV or HDV.

Do not use OBS. On Windows use HDVSplit or a capture module built into your NLE. I've heard that QuickTime on Mac deinterlaces on the fly, if this is true, this is not what you want.

There is no codec to save into, it should just copy bytes as they are from tape and write them into a file. It seems that Premiere works for you. Verify that the file contains MPEG-2 @ 25 Mbit/s and MP2 audio, double-check that interlacing is preserved. That's it. Then you can convert it to whatever format you feel like.

[dellsam34]

I'm not fixated on going the AJA route, nor did I realize it'd be at such a loss of quality - which I'm still unclear as to how much loss there would be or how much of it, or what the range of TBCs is (quality vs cost). At this point I just want to find the quickest / most efficient route to start digitizing.

Let me try to make this less painful for you:

- Digitizing is for analog tapes, HDV tapes are not analog, You can forget now words like digitizing and capturing and use the term transfer or ingest.

- No, you don't need a TBC, TBC work on analog SD signals, not HD digital signal. So forget about TBC for this task.

- You are not losing quality when using SDI, As I explained above, when you use SDI out, the deck has to decode the HDV stream to comply with SDI HD standards (SMPTE 292M HD-SDI 1.48Gbps 720p, 1080i), It will convert 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 and 1440x1080 to 1920x1080, hence the high data rate that causes stuttering, This is not a TBC issue and there is no HD TBC in the consumer world.

- Premiere is the wrong tool here, For SDI use the SDI card's proprietary software if you have a fast computer that can ingest that amount of data and a very large HDD, Otherwise use firewire to capture the compressed HDV stream as it is stored on tape and use HDVSplit, PC is recommended here, Too many hurdles with MAC.

[dterranova]

Let me try to make this less painful for you:
- Premiere is the wrong tool here, For SDI use the SDI card's proprietary software if you have a fast computer that can ingest that amount of data and a very large HDD, Otherwise use firewire to capture the compressed HDV stream as it is stored on tape and use HDVSplit, PC is recommended here, Too many hurdles with MAC.

Thanks so much for the breakdowns. I get the gist of what’s going on now. Less painful indeed.
Never thought I’d need a windows to do the ingesting, but will go buy one.
Outside of the ports, will processing power or gfx card make a difference in performance/quality, or just any old pc with FW/TB?

[aedipuss]

firewire unlike usb2 didn't use any processor cycles. gfx cards and fast processors didn't do anything to assist FW. the tape data rate is only 25Mb/s so almost anything can successfully transfer the data off the tape, as there is NO processing being done.

[dterranova]

firewire unlike usb2 didn't use any processor cycles. gfx cards and fast processors didn't do anything to assist FW. the tape data rate is only 25Mb/s so almost anything can successfully transfer the data off the tape, as there is NO processing being done.

Gotcha. Same goes for USB3?
I’m at bestbuy right now looking at <$500 laptops with 8gb ram

[aedipuss]

usb3 doesn't use the cpu/gpu. what you should look for is firewire400 not fw800. it makes things easier. fw800 cables don't always play nice with fw400 devices.

[dterranova]

Right ok, thanks.
FW400 doesn't convert to USB3/TB3 unless it goes through a FW800, so not sure what you mean about looking for FW4000 - as in a pc that has the FW400 port, or for the converters to get a FW400 into a modern pc?

Either way I've bought the PC with TB3, and I have all the cables and converters that this video mentions https://youtu.be/GASIuX1mqwE?t=249 (FW400>FW800>TB2>TB3), so I'll report back once I get to the next step. I've actually misplaced the TB2>TB3 converter, which just ate up 2 hours of my time in cable nightmare. Will have to wait til monday til a new one arrives

Thanks for all your help!

[dellsam34]

You didn't have to buy a brand new computer that may or may not work through a series of adapters and most likely the data will have hiccups even at just 25Mbps, All you had to do is get a used working laptop that has a native firewire port for under $100. I hope you don't regret your investment ad everything goes smooth.

[dterranova]

Haha ok, yeah I wasn't sure what was being communicated up there as I honestly believed FW was always mac-only, and then a youtube link came through explaining how to connect it to a windows TB3, and since bestbuy's close by i figured i'd just get one immediately instead of doing the whole ebay delivery thing (and stuff gets stolen all the time here too).
But I appreciate the link. FW on Windows! Had no idea.
I may just order one like that anyway, in case this new HP doesn't work.
I plan to resell whatever gear I won't need once I'm set and I'll probably return the AJA, so hopefully not too much of a loss. I may report back on how this Win machine goes.
Thanks for your help!

[dellsam34]

Firewire was PC and MAC alike, It was the only high speed port available back then before USB 2.0 came along, A lot of firewire HDD's and optical drives made back in the day.

I do have those adapters and cables featured in the YT link but never attempted to actually try it, I have a laptop with USB-C, though not sure if it's a straight USB-C or has TB capability, It seems that TB port availability is required.

[Bwaak]

Instead of verifying how your Premiere capture works you went to buy a PC with Thunderbolt 3. You probably paid for cables and dongles half of what you would have paid for a refurbished PC desktop with a Firewire card. Oh, well.

[dterranova]

Instead of verifying how your Premiere capture works ...

Not sure what you mean by this, but sounds like internet-assumptions.
When I asked you what you meant by Windows machine, you responded either FW or TB3 kind and shared the links that pointed to TB3 working with a windows machine, and since several people kept pointing to the windows workflow being better, my mind went to buying a TB3 windows from over the street rather than faffing around on ebay for an old FW one that I'll want to get rid of once finished ingesting. I wish this were the only thing on my plate right now, unfortunately I can't give this my full attention and things fall through the cracks. Either way no skin off my nose. Like I said, I already had most cables and dongles, so hardly any expenses.

[Bwaak]

Instead of verifying how your Premiere capture works ...

Not sure what you mean by this, but sounds like internet-assumptions.
When I asked you what you meant by Windows machine, you responded either FW or TB3 kind and shared the links that pointed to TB3 working with a windows machine, and since several people kept pointing to the windows workflow being better, my mind went to buying a TB3 windows from over the street rather than faffing around on ebay for an old FW one that I'll want to get rid of once finished ingesting. I wish this were the only thing on my plate right now, unfortunately I can't give this my full attention and things fall through the cracks. Either way no skin off my nose. Like I said, I already had most cables and dongles, so hardly any expenses.

I responded that Firewire is native for HDV, while Thunderbolt is a sort of a hack. Since you already had your hack configured on your existing Mac, I felt you were able to capture the video on your computer. Most NLEs have capture modules for DV, HDV and AVCHD, I use capture module built into Sony Vegas all the time, and it works fine. I suggested you to verify the parameters of the video in the captured files to make sure you were getting unadulterated copy off the tape. But you decided to buy a whole other machine, and instead of going the native Firewire route you got a TB3 Windows machine, and I am not sure this is a better option than a Mac with TB3, and it is still a hack. I hope you will be to return it without a restocking fee if/when you confirm that your Premiere capture was, in fact, perfectly valid.

[dterranova]

Yeah I think I see your point. Wasn't super clear for me at the time, but I should clarify that whatever I was getting out of Premiere wasn't right (stuttery preview window + .ac3 files), definitely very different behaviour from the old FCP7 workflow that required troubleshooting that I didn't have time for. And when someone said windows perform better, I just figured why waste time. I know nothing about windows machines, and to be frank I'm not too deep in this hardware tech stuff (despite working in video for 20 years). I was getting real life advice from someone at a prod co that getting this HDV deck + the AJA would've been all I needed, so just coming out of that took me a few mental hoops, as well as trying to decode what was being communicated in here. And yes, wasn't gonna mention it, but I'm planning to return the windows and don't care for restocking fees. I'm still saving a few thousand on paying a local tape capture service. Time is the biggest factor with this one, and of course rushing is no help!

[Bwaak]

Yeah I think I see your point. Wasn't super clear for me at the time, but I should clarify that whatever I was getting out of Premiere wasn't right (stuttery preview window + .ac3 files), definitely very different behaviour from the old FCP7 workflow that required troubleshooting that I didn't have time for. And when someone said windows perform better, I just figured why waste time. I know nothing about windows machines, and to be frank I'm not too deep in this hardware tech stuff (despite working in video for 20 years). I was getting real life advice from someone at a prod co that getting this HDV deck + the AJA would've been all I needed, so just coming out of that took me a few mental hoops, as well as trying to decode what was being communicated in here. And yes, wasn't gonna mention it, but I'm planning to return the windows and don't care for restocking fees. I'm still saving a few thousand on paying a local tape capture service. Time is the biggest factor with this one, and of course rushing is no help!

Yeah, pros work with dedicated decks and pro hardware, but with digital the same result can be achieved without a deck, that is the beauty of digital and its democratizing factor.

This page may be of interest for you: https://helpx.adobe.com/premiere-pro/kb/cant-capture-dv-hdv-video.html I would not be pushing the Premiere solution if you said you did not see any picture after connecting via TB3, but since you did, I would try to make it work. Also, Adobe says that if capturing via Premiere does not work, try iMovie. I've read that iMovie captures correctly, while QuickTime deinterlaces on the fly, but cannot confirm as I do not use Mac.

Good luck!

[dterranova]

Hi again.
I just wrote a whole post in here that got deleted when I hit Submit and it gave me a "you logged in from another location" error. Hit back and it was all gone.
Oh my lord. I'll try to recap but I'm going succinct:

Windows machine: didn't work with the 2 programs that were mentioned. Doesn't see the HDV deck. Tried installing drivers, but gave up after getting conflicting instructions about installation as there were no .dll files. I've packaged the machine it up and ready to return.

Went back to the MacPro and tried Quicktime/iMovie/FCPX. All three not working for various reasons, probably frame dropouts in the tape.
- QT captures ok, but the file it spits out is unusable by premiere/media encoder. They abort whenever trying to transcode.
- iMovie+FCPX capture great, but they STOP importing at every CUT in the footage. Not frame dropouts. I'm seeing lots of posts like this https://fcp.co/forum/4-final-cut-pro-x-fcpx/28658-importing-dv-footage-with-sound-problems - but in their case FCPX is at least continuously recording, just splitting it into multiple clips. In my case, they abort import entirely, meaning I'd have to hit IMPORT for each new shot in the tape.

This is why the person who recco'd the AJA recco'd it in the first place.

So I'm back to square one, and want to, need to get a TBC device, either standalone or as a card for the MacPro.
Wondering if anyone could recommend any, considering my setup?

Many thanks