TBC Recommendations

[TazDave]

Hi, I'm in Australia & I'm looking into purchasing a TBC to transfer my home VHS movies. Not a lot of choices seem to be available here & I'm hoping someone can help a newbie hopefully make the right decision.
So far I have found the following models-
CCR-9 Digital Video Stabilizer
CTB-100 Time Base Corrector
AVT-8710 Multi Standard Time Base Corrector
There are also a couple of very expensive units from Videoguys & Videodesk out of my price range.
Some people have mentioned Grex and eBay have one called a Digital Video Stabilizer. Metal Case, Gold Connectors
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/121775635149?ul_noapp=true

Thank you

[orsetto]

Depends what kind of tapes, and what you're transferring them to. If dubbing home-recorded tapes to a standalone dvd recorder made after 2006, you don't need anything. If the tapes are commercial with MV protection, you'll need a stabilizer. If dubbing to a finicky PC encoding device, you might need a full TBC instead (or the stabilizer + pass-thru dvd recorder alternative discussed below).

CTB-100 and AVT-8710 are nearly identical. Both have severe sample variation: a good one is very good, a bad one is worse than nothing. If working properly and reliably, these "full" TBCs serve the dual purpose of filtering MV issues and preventing the dropped frame sync issues that plague many PC video encoders.

The CCR-9 stabilizer is based on the older, popular Sima CT-2 stabilizer. Both are an alternative to the similar Grex. Not bad if you need a stabilizer to clear up MV, or problems with DVB-T broadcasts. None of the three are a full-fledged TBC: they may or may not help with dropped frame issues.

That generic eBay stabilizer is an older design, aimed only at filtering out VHS MV. This is the bare minimum required to transfer older commercial VHS releases with MV issues. May be all you need for dubbing to a standalone dvd recorder, or a modern, well-designed PC encoder. But if your PC setup tends to drop frames, this cheap stabilizer won't help you. The CCR-9 or Grex would be better choices unless budget is extremely tight.

Ten years ago, the full TBCs like AVT-8710 were the go-to recommendation to solve all VHS encoding issues with one box. Today, things are more complicated, because those TBCs are now made like crap, and identifying a good example of an older used unit on eBay is very difficult. Most of us still doing VHS transfers have moved from a single TBC to a dual-device strategy: use one of the fancier stabilizers when necessary to filter MV, plus a dvd recorder connected between the stabilizer and PC to repair any dropped frame sync issue. Most dvd recorders made and sold after 2007 will repair dropped frames as well or better than currently available TBCs like the AVT or CTB. They also tend to be less glitchy and more transparent. You can save a lot of money by choosing a second-hand dvd recorder with a dead dvd drive, since you won't need that anyway. All you need to do is connect the line outs of your vcr to the line ins of the dvd recorder, and the line outs of the dvd recorder to your PC (commonly referred to in threads here as "dvd recorder pass-thru mode"). If you need to filter MV, connect a stabilizer ahead of the dvd recorder. A stabilizer + used recorder will often price out at the same or less cost than a brand new CTB-100 or AVT-8710.

[TazDave]

Ho orsetto, thank you for the reply.
At the moment I'm transferring PAL tapes about 40 years old via USB to PC . I did manage to stabilize one video without mv protection with Windows Movie maker but it is what I would loosely call "watchable".
Another tape has the mv protection, it wobbles and rolls and of course I cannot stabilize it at all due to this.
These are all family recordings and I was surprised how difficult it has become.
You mentioned a stand alone DV recorder with tbc and possibly a dead hard drive along with a stabilizer and if this is the way to go should I buy the cheapest stabilizer apart from the eBay one?

Us old guys take a while to get around this new fan dangled technology.

Thank you once again, I will go to eBay & try & hunt down a DV recorder with tbc

[TazDave]

Would Panasonic DVD Recorders DMR-ES10 & DMR-ES15 do the job?
Thank you

[orsetto]

Would Panasonic DVD Recorders DMR-ES10 & DMR-ES15 do the job?

Yes. These are among the few pre-2006 recorders with rock-solid VHS correction circuits. The ES10 has become a cult item due to its amazingly strong VHS repair circuits, thus a bit hard to find at reasonable prices. The ES15 and ES20 are not as heavy-duty but will suit the vast majority of tapes.

From the details in your second post, it seems you have two problems that interact: your tapes are not the greatest quality, and your USB video device is the typical cheap generic type that does not play well with VHS. The good news is they don't seem to be commercial tapes, so you don't have to deal with MV or a stabilizer. The bad news is you will most likely need to find a Panasonic ES10 or ES15 to overcome your specific problems. Newer recorders don't have strong enough correction to compensate for under-performing USB dongles combined with unstable tapes (neither do stabilizers or AVT/CBT TBCs).

Switching to a better PC input device might be helpful, but finding a good USB dongle is harder than finding a good TBC, and I don't know what is available to you in Australia. The baseline recommendation is the genuine EZcap, but identifying the original against the sea of Chinese knockoffs can be very difficult. Try a Panasonic ES15 or ES10 (PAL versions) with the USB video input you already own, and take it from there. If the Panasonic doesn't solve your problem, you definitely need a different USB encoder.

Note these early Panasonics are not all roses and unicorns: they work miracles in one regard, but they add their own signature to the video. It may look a little murkier or blockier. OTOH, it should be nice and stable with no distortion, so the tradeoff is usually worth it. The ES15, ES20 and later models are less prone to this than the ES10. You can minimize any added artifacts by adjusting some settings in the recorder video menu. There are many threads here on VH that describe the effect of various Panasonic settings, just run a search for "Panasonic pass thru". Also be aware that Panasonic took the unusual step of wiring their VHS correction filters to just one of the line inputs, if memory serves its Line 2 on the rear panel. Other brands wired all inputs thru their correction circuits.

[TazDave]

Thank you again orsetto. You are correct, my major problem at the moment before tbc is my USB dongle.
Like many others I thought I was purchasing a EZcap but it turn out it's actually a Easier Cap.
Like the Panasonic models EZcap is as rare as hens teeth here in Australia & you could probably guarantee my lousy Easiercap won't do the job.
If you could suggest a couple of other models that would be great but I understand if you can't.

Thank you

[SameSelf]

finding a good USB dongle is harder than finding a good TBC

I don't understand this comment. I bought the I-o Data GV-USB2 from Amazon for ~$35 USD—eazy peazy, cheap, and works great. The Hauppage and Diamond USB devices are at least two additional options similarly available. So it would seem there is a plethora of USB capture devices these days, or are you talking about finding a genuine EZCap device among a sea of knockoffs?

[orsetto]

Re USB dongles: SameSelf has listed the models most often recommended by VH members.

The trouble is, user reports for all of these are wildly inconsistent: like everything involved with VHS transfer, its highly subjective and dependent on things like your VCR, your specific VHS recordings, your specific PC, and your specific "geek" factor.

Some of these, like the I-o Data GV-USB2 favored by SameSelf, can require an Einstein to exploit for maximum benefit: used incorrectly with the wrong software or picayune settings, its no better than a generic EZcrap. The Hauppauge will drop frames all over the place in some situations. The Diamond product line is a love it or hate it phenomenon, with factions split down the middle. And there's a vocal group that loves the video but loathes the audio circuit in the genuine EZcap (they go to extreme lengths to record the audio with another device and remux the separate audio + video into yet a third final file: not for the squeamish or non-geek).

So you see, choosing a USB input dongle is as complicated as every other issue (not least of which, availability to you in Australia may be the over-riding factor). If used by an inexperienced, non-geek consumer, the genuine EZcap or Hauppauge USBLive2 are arguably less fussy and will provide more predictable results. The I-o Data GV-USB2 and Diamond products are capable of higher performance for users with the technical chops to adapt arcane software and troubleshoot the occasional glitch. Some may work well with no other accessories, connected directly to your VCR, others may be as bad as the generic EZcrap you have now.

ALL would benefit from the VHS signal being pre-conditioned by a pass-thru dvd recorder (if your tapes aren't absolutely godawful, you don't need one of the cult Panasonics: any post-2006 Panasonic, Toshiba, Pioneer, Sanyo, Phillips, Funai, JVC, LG or OEM Australian store brand should help, Sony DVD/HDD models are as good as Pioneer but avoid all non-HDD Sonys). If you can't find an affordable second-hand dvd recorder to re-purpose, try the CBT-100 (but be sure to buy from a dealer with no questions asked return/refund policy). The dvd recorder frame syncs are binary devices: they either stabilize your VHS perfectly for USB input, or they don't (you'll know after the first tape). By comparison, current TBCs like the CBT-100 can be random, unpredictable PITAs: they will work great for ten minutes, then blow your transfer to hell for five minutes, then be stable for eight minutes, etc. If at all possible, try to lay hands on a dvd recorder instead, preferably any Panasonic.

[JVRaines]

The StarTech SVID2USB2 was very solid for me. I have since moved on to an Osprey PCIe card for better drivers and audio.

[SameSelf]

Some of these, like the I-o Data GV-USB2 favored by SameSelf

Apparently I have good company:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/369761-Startech-USB3HDCAP-opinions?p=2370996#post2370996

[orsetto]

Some of these, like the I-o Data GV-USB2 favored by SameSelf

Apparently I have good company:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/369761-Startech-USB3HDCAP-opinions?p=2370996#post2370996

When newbies come across massively technical threads like that, it pretty much guarantees an immediate end to any thoughts they had of efficiently digitizing some nostalgic tapes they've had sitting on a shelf for 20 years. That level of torturous technical detail has no application to the completely non-geek consumer who simply wants to digitize a small quantity of mediocre old VHS recordings (whose innate quality isn't remotely worth such elaborate effort). They want to plug their VCR into their PC, press a button, and get a passable capture that doesn't jitter, tear or lose audio sync. Thats it. They don't care if the audio isn't CD quality, they don't care that some headswitch noise appears at the bottom: show them a histogram and they'll show you the door.

Realistically, nine out of ten people who wander onto VH asking how to digitize their tapes should really just get a standalone DVD/VHS combo recorder and take the easy way out. Unfortunately, these obsolete machines are hard to find new, and DVD isn't "cool" anymore, so now everyone wants files for tablet and phone display instead. Making video files instead of using a dvd/vhs recorder is a LOT harder task for average Joe or Jane: I don't think it pays to drag codecs and scripts and vDub and Amarec into the conversation unless or until the OP indicates an interest beyond very basic capture.

I've digitized nearly 1600 VHS by various means over the years, using all sorts of hardware and software. But Jeezuz H, by the time I got to the end of the first page in that thread I wanted to put a gun in my mouth, pull the trigger, reanimate myself, then set myself on fire to punish myself for for ever buying my first VCR. There is not a home-made tape on this earth I consider worth that much technical tsuris: not my wedding, not my kid being born, not my grandparents last breath, no TV show, no movie. Standing on your head while chanting ancient latin prayers while encoding and re-encoding from uncompressed trillion-gb captures to some usable file size and type is not something the everyday consumer expects as the price of digitizing their crummy VHS collection.

Unless an OP starts right in with tech talk indicating some pre-existing comfort and knowledge of the field, I'd rather err by assuming a newbie wants the simplest path to an acceptable result. If they tell us they're interested in the more advanced route, or demonstrate perfectionist tendencies, all bets are off, and I'll refer them to the advanced threads. Its not unlike photography: multiple routes to a similar result. I happen to enjoy adapting 40 year old Zeiss Haselblad lenses to my Nikon DSLR, tediously using manual focus, exposure, stop down and raw files to achieve a certain look to my photos. But the other 999 out of 1000 people would think me insane, because they accomplish exactly the same pictorial effect using their iPhone to snap the scene, then applying an InstaGram filter two seconds later. If viewed on a screen, most people couldn't tell the difference. These days, immersing ourselves ten levels deep in geekery is an option, not a requirement.

[TazDave]

There is an EZcap on Ebay that is in Australia, the rest are from China, the seller could of bought these from China to sell here, I have no idea if it's genuine or not. There is also the Hauppauge USB-Live2 analog video Digitizer and the I-O DATA USB Connection Video Capture cable GV-USB2, I know price isn't relevant but the I-O DATA is cheaper but comes from the U.S.A, the Hauppauge is the most expensive.

I agree this sort of stuff makes you bang your head on the table as a newbie, we all want it to just "work" but like what was mentioned without the technical knowledge it can be a fools expedition.
I'll probably toss a coin with which one to buy unless someone says just stick with model a, b or c.

Disaster has struck anyway, I was leaning over my VCR checking cables and somehow my body pressed the record button. I've lost about 40 seconds of family memories which the only copy I have is a rubbish capture on my PC.

I have connected 2 VCR's together to copy the original tapes but for some reason I can't get a recording, probably because one is NTSC playback, once again technical knowledge out of my league, I'll just hunt for another VCR or DVD recorder.

[JVRaines]

Ouch! I would break the record tabs off those cassettes straight away to avoid a repeat.

[SameSelf]

There is an EZcap on Ebay that is in Australia, the rest are from China, the seller could of bought these from China to sell here, I have no idea if it's genuine or not. There is also the Hauppauge USB-Live2 analog video Digitizer and the I-O DATA USB Connection Video Capture cable GV-USB2, I know price isn't relevant but the I-O DATA is cheaper but comes from the U.S.A, the Hauppauge is the most expensive.

The I-o Data device is actually mfr'd in Japan. Even the included CD with the drivers and software are in Japanese (no English translation). So you might be able to source it directly from Japan given your proximity.

Unless someone has the courage to crack one open, I have a feeling that the GV-USB2 moniker is a nod to a Grass Valley heritage. GV back in the day made some of the best ADCs when it comes to audio/video locking. Sync problems with other devices is one of the consistent themes in this sub. I own an ADVC 300, and never once experienced an audio sync problem which brings me to my final point.

These USB capture devices are great for the simple reason they are so cheap. But, as orsetto says somewhere in his overly long posts, they require some fiddling typically, and YMMV. That is why the ADVC 300, which is no longer mfr'd, still sells for hundreds of dollars. Also, there is a lot to be said for simple plug and play, and that is exactly what you get with the ADVC 300.

But my point is, when it comes to the I-o Data vs the Hauppage vs some other USB device, I am not convinced there is a lot of difference and would just go with the cheapest among the ones recommended. The next tier of set ups is much more expensive even though they make life easier.

Good luck

[TazDave]

Thank you for the advice everyone. I'll go with the cheapest option & take it from there.
Now my dumb question of the day is can I somehow filter the video that I captured through my useless easiercap that is terrible quality back through a tbc & stabilize it?
This is the full footage that has not been deleted off the tape & probably wishful thinking I'm hoping to somehow restore it.

Thank you

[TazDave]

If I purchase a Panasonic DMR-ES10 or DMR-ES15 do I need a VCR with S-Video to create the pass through?

Which model is better, the ES10 was mentioned as a cult item?

Thank you