100+ DVDs, that's pretty pathetic for what's supposed to be a good recorder.
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Firstly, a big thank you to this forum for pointing out the specific problems with the Panasonic DMR10EB. After about one and a half years my DVD player went into a continuous self check loop and then completely stopped. I panicked a bit as DVD I loved was stuck in it, but thanks to this forum I have now fixed it and yesterday I got it back up and running. Whhooppee. Panasonic customer services were no help at all and this experience has put me off buying any Panasonic product ever again.
So how did I fix it well, it was indeed the two capacitors C1270/71 (referred to as C1260/61 in previous posts but I think this may be the difference between US and UK) which had failed evident by the doming and brown staining on top of the capacitors. These capacitors are 16V, 1500 microF, 105 degrees C. It's fairly easy to remove the board but some care is need if this is your first time doing something like this (as it was mine). I needed to loosen off the screws attaching the black DVD box (don't know the technical term) so I was able to slide the board out. Also someone mentions in a previous post about the scary connector at the end of the board. There's a metal retaining clip that holds this in place. I just placed my finger nail in to leaver it slightly (careful as this looks quite delicate) and pulled the connector out, then the board pops out a treat. Got two replacement capacitors from a local electrical supplies shop, I replaced them with 25V 1500 microF, 105 degrees C. These are a bit bigger but just fit, cost £0.85 each. I was going to solder these in myself but in the end a repairman did it and was only going to charge £5, I gave him £10. Refitted the part and BINGO the DVD recorder works again. Hooray!
Panasonic wanted me to pay postage and an inspection fee, before they decided if they would contribute to the repair cost, as it was no longer covered by their warranty! Well guess what that wasn't tempting.
Before I knew all of this I bought an LG RH278H, but what the hell now I have two DVD players.
Repair this yourselves I say and get a little soldering help if you need to, once you've diagnosed the problem yourself it shouldn't be expensive.
POWER TO THE PEOPLE (AND THIS FORUM) AND BOYCOTT PANASONIC, UNTIL THEY LEARN TO IMPROVE THEIR QUALITY AND IMPROVE CUSTOMER SERVICE. (ok ok step away from the keyboard)
Thanks again to everyone that has contributed to this forum...you rock!
Kind regards
Samuel
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The front panel display has become very dark on my DMR-ES10. I had a look at the caps and they seem visibly OK (no doming or leaking etc), does anyone know which caps are responsible for the display? I've already set the brightness to maximum in the menu, but the display is still a bit blotchy especially in the middle. I've also cleaned the filter and plastic that sits over the VFD unit, this improved things only a little. I'm afraid it might be an early symptom of imminent failure.
I'm thinking of blanket replacement of all the non Elna/ Panasonic caps in the PSU to improve reliability (don't like the look of the RGX branded ones at all tbh). Also I was shocked to see that one of the 1500uf 16V pairs is very close to a heatsink and is very warm to the touch, this seems to be a bit of a design flaw.
Andy
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Originally Posted by lcaillo
After looking around I can see that this is a great forum and I plan to spend more time here.
Thanks guys. . .
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My DMR-ES10 would not power up as well and, after doing the research here, I decided to replace 1260 (820uf 10v) as a DIY project. The power supply board is very easy to remove. Radio Shack did NOT have the 820 HOWEVER they did have the 1000uf 35V. The Radio Shack part number is 272-1032 It's working beautifully now and I wish to thank the intelligent folks here who contribute and make these kinds of simple fixes available to us. The part cost me $1.69 Maybe this will help someone else cut to the chase when hunting for the part and make this repair as easy for them as it was for me. Thank you all. Larry
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Thanks for the awesome information!
My DMR-ES10 wouldn't respond to the power button, door open button, or remote, and eventually gave the error message "U30 REMOTED"
No luck finding what that error code meant, so I found this forum and bought the capacitor at Radio Shack (under $2). Oddly, the capacitor at C1260 was fine but C1415 is bulged. That one says it's 680uF/10v/105deg. I'll exchange the capacitor, try the same procedure to replace it and see what happens....
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And what a good old thread this is - DVD Recorders now and the way they are built have a very limited lifespan, as opposed to burners inside computers or PCs - The electronics itself inside a DVD Recorder can last a very long time, providing it is well vented area and does not overheat - and you can bet that it will outlast your recorder's drive. Usually the first things to fail in a recorder is the optical drive and power supply - and you can NEVER rely on any repair shop to fix your recorder, most are run by idiots and they will screw up your machine even more than it was when you sent it for repair - might not be such a bad thing to invest in a good capture card and burner on your PC, those will outlast most of the shit dvd recorders on the market today and in some cases provide better quality than most of the crap inside the dvd recorders! The optical drives found in most of today's shaddy DVD recorders, lucky if you can even reach 100 discs with them - even the HDD models, if your drive can last 1 year you are lucky - and you are being ripped off with a huge price difference for HDD support !
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Originally Posted by misterbill
And about those DVD recorders, people seem to diss the Cirrus Logic chipsets - it's funny but I have a capture device based on a very good CL chipsets and the quality surpasses any of the DVD recorders I've used, including the more expensive ones - I think not ONE company makes a decent recorder nowadays. Look at my consumer level JVC VCRs, I use them for 4 hours daily to record my shows and series, 7 days a week, been doing so for years, and they are running - Wasn't DVD recorders supposed to replace VCRs ? Well try recording that 4 hour long show on your DVD, do you trust your recorder unattended, that it won't STOP all of a sudden or crap out ? You shouldn't....... DVD recorders are not meant to replace VCRs because they are built like crap.
Even less the HDD models where drives last 1 year tops....more if you are lucky, because of the poor quality drives and because of the poor quality power supply that powers them.
And since NOBODY is standing up and holding these companies accoutnable for KNOWINGLY releasing junk, this kind of business practice will go on !
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Originally Posted by highvolumeJP
Don't misunderstand: I have plenty of over 20 year-old analog tape recordings -- some audio, but mostly video -- whose longevity has so far been well demonstrated. I just don't have that kind of confidence for anything within today's digital domain. For one thing, those 1s and 0s are pretty unforgiving, if you ever have to attempt to salvage even portions of something.
You may be right about the few DVDRs still sold in the U.S., but probably incorrect about the Pioneer models that are still available for the time being in Canada. There must be a very large quality difference between the cheapo models we've seen sold by Walmart and the like for the past couple years, and the Pioneers. I'm wondering what the consumers in Europe and Japan are buying. They have really liked the DVD Recorder, which got absolutely wiped out in the U.S. by Tivo and especially by the HDD PVRs supplied inexpensively by the cable and sat. providers. Those foreign consumers have paid high prices and high taxes for their DVD Recorders, so I can't see them being very tolerant of the shoddy manufacturing to which you refer.When in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- with over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this quintessentially American art form.
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Originally Posted by Seeker47
EVERYTHING being sold now is subpar, including blank media - Even the once top of the line Verbatims are showing signs of quality control issues, Taiyo Yuden bonding problems, so youa re left with utter crap every sides.
After all, it is the waning marketing to a market that has been going away for some time now. In a major city you can still probably still find competent VCR repair, but from what I'm noticing this appears to be getting more scarce as time goes on.
Pathetic indeed.
You may be right about the few DVDRs still sold in the U.S., but probably incorrect about the Pioneer models that are still available for the time being in Canada. There must be a very large quality difference between the cheapo models we've seen sold by Walmart and the like for the past couple years, and the Pioneers. I'm wondering what the consumers in Europe and Japan are buying. They have really liked the DVD Recorder, which got absolutely wiped out in the U.S. by Tivo and especially by the HDD PVRs supplied inexpensively by the cable and sat. providers. Those foreign consumers have paid high prices and high taxes for their DVD Recorders, so I can't see them being very tolerant of the shoddy manufacturing to which you refer.
So I don't think even Pioneer is immune to problems.
I am thankful that I have purchased DVD recorders when they were decent, still have my trusty Toshiba DR4 and DR6 and a Samsung R155, most if not all recorders you will find now in Canada use the MAGNUM chipset, a new, very inexpensive, low budget, low value, chipset, except LITEONs and some other brands.
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Current Pioneers are not outsourced, they are co-developed and co-produced by Pioneer and Sony. For reasons that remain unclear, the burners in the old 510 and 520 Pioneers have a shorter lifespan than expected and that is indeed unfortunate. However the statistic for those Pioneers is well within range for other similar models from other mfrs in the same 2003-2004 time period: Toshiba and Panasonic burners had a rather brief lifespan as well according to reports here and elsewhere. Overall, recorders made from 2005 on seem to have more durable optical drives- the 2006 and later Panasonics are noticeably better than earlier Pannys and the 2006 and later Pioneers are pretty bulletproof. The Pioneer 640, 543, 540, 450, 550, 650, 460, 560, 660 and the new Sony 780 all use a sturdy Sony-supplied burner which has proved quite durable (3+ years hard use). The hard drives in all these models are generic PC hard drives made by the usual suppliers. The debate regarding "prefiltering" of video in newer recorders cuts both ways: the arguably "sharper" encoders in some older models made life extremely difficult for those with sub-standard cable, satellite or VHS tape sources. The slight, subjective "softening" in newer models is a small price to pay for their much better source compatibility and encoder consistency. (Any sharpness advantage of an older recorder is lost when it forces you to connect a TBC or other device to the signal chain.)
All consumer electronics products within the last five-ten years have been "built to a price" and are subject to random "bad batches" that fail. Price does not necessarily indicate durability: some dirt-cheap "Wal*Mart specials" can outlast some big name brands: luck plays a part here. Of the DVD/HDD models still marketed in North America, the Canadian Pioneers are somewhat better built and designed than the USA Phillips/Magnavox units, but the difference is relative and subjective. Certainly the Pioneers are more pricey. Of the DVD-only recorders, all are now cheaply made commodity machines churned out by subcontractors for the big names. Only Panasonic still makes its own recorders at a quality (if not feature) level thats comparable to their old models.
Europeans and Asians are more interested in standalone recorders due to having far less cable and satellite penetration to worry about, and they are more conditioned to paying higher prices for their hardware. This is why the better-grade feature-laden Panasonic, Toshiba, Sony and Pioneer units remain available in those markets after being pulled from the USA and Canada (Pioneer remains in Canada, not sure for how much longer).
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Typical life span of current DVD Recorders now is less than 1 year to 2 years max and the causes:
1) Poor quality power supplies used !
2) Poor quality electronics and very bad quality capacitors (those too have a VERY limited lifespan).
3) Poor quality optical drives.
4) Poor heat dissipation.
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All for the reason to keep the current DVDRs "cheap"
For the most part people get what they want. Since so many people want the $99 specials that's what the mgfs. make. Back when DVDRs cost >$400 mfgs. could afford to put some quality into their products, at $99 every penny counts so if they can save 1/2 cent by using a cheaper capacitor that may only last a year or 2 then so be it. That times all the parts used in a DVDR adds up.
The problem I see is someone that wants a better option really doesn't have much of a choice. Even the better more expensive models within a line usually only add features, probably not better parts
The expression "They don't make em like they used to" gets overused, but with DVDRs I sure think it fits the bill.
The best we can do is weed out the total junk from the "better" ones.
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Originally Posted by highvolumeJPWhen in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- with over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this quintessentially American art form.
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One of our members has apparently taken a sudden and severe dislike to every standalone recorder in existence, with a special hatred reserved for Pioneers. In an exaggerated sense, he has a point, but his recent posts all over the forum warning us all against the insidious evils of DVD recorders are getting a little much. Standalones are what they are, consumer products, and depending on the year, mfr, and original price, some are better than others. However they do NOT "all suck-every single one". Please. The HTPC is no cure-all, either: depending again on mfr, year made and original cost, the components of an HTPC are subject to the same variables as standalone recorders.
One can argue the merits of various encoder technologies endlessly, this is a productive topic of discussion and even those who've already settled on a particular recorder or encoder board can learn much from reports posted by users of other choices. But to carry on over burners or power supplies takes things to an extreme. China has been the source of all these "Japanese" products for the last ten years: the mfrs are completely dependent on the Chinese to meet the specs provided and build the products accordingly. Unfortunately some elements of the Chinese subcontracting system occasionally take advantage, and large-scale product defects appear across the board. Power supply parts were the last such notorious scam: *every* consumer electronics item mfr'd from 2003-2005 that used a capacitor was affected. Without exception, every thread on this board that covers power supply meltdowns was triggered by this "counterfeit" capacitor scam, one of the most outrageous ever foisted on the public and on brand-name companies.
Everything from Apple Macs to radar detectors to blenders to Dell servers to DVD/HDD recorders were doomed by these crap parts, without the knowledge or approval of their designers. One can complain about how each individual brand name *handled* the crisis once its defective products were discovered by consumers, but its unfair to blame the individual company for being swindled into substandard parts: they all got screwed. In the case of Pioneer, the 2005 models were the most contaminated by counterfeit caps which is why Hkan has a repair page on his website for them. The problem is mostly confined to the x3x series (531-533-633 in USA, 530 and 433 in Europe/Asia) which are cursed with other issues as well. A smaller percentage of late-2004 Pio models are affected to a lesser degree (220,225 and 520: mostly the 225 model). To put that in perspective, the Pioneer power supply problems pale in comparison to JVCs and Panasonics of the same period: it was luck of the draw. And lets not even mention the LiteOn fiasco.
As for burners, they have been a problem in standalones from day one. They are hampered by three key limitations: heavier use compared to burners in a PC, inadequate ventilation compared to burners in a PC, and finally a total lack of upgrade path or firmware options compared to burners housed in a PC. The number one cause of burner "failure" in DVD recorders is the atrocious trend of media mfrs to change dye formulas of DVD-R every couple of months. Other than a few Panasonic models, no DVD recorder accepts firmware upgrades to handle new media formulations. So the burns "fail". We can avoid or postpone such "failures" by sticking to standardized media like Taiyo Yuden 8x, but this is inconvenient at the very least. This is a tremendous advantage of HTPCs over standalones: when blank media hiccups, just buy a new $25 burner to handle the change (impossible with a DVD recorder). Of course, for daily use and some types of long-term project, many of us prefer a dedicated standalone. When all you want to do is time-shift "Lost" or transfer your VHS tapes to DVD, the simplified interface and operation of a standalone usually trumps a PC, if for no other reason because it avoids the threat of Windows or OSX crashes or conflicts with cobbled-together AV cards and software. The burners in 2006 and later Pioneers has proven very robust, so have the Panasonics (aside from the Panasonic sensitivity to dust and skin oils, which is easily maintained with a little effort). The Phillips 3575/76 also seem to have sturdy burners (so far) compared to pre-2006 machines. So *some* aspects of standalones do evolve for the better.
Choose your poison based on what features you need, your budget and your technical patience.
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Originally Posted by orsettoWhen in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- with over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this quintessentially American art form.
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victoriabears said,The answer to your question is "How long is a piece of string".
I feel that about sums it up. For my own expereince has given me the impression that it is the luck of the draw.
I have spent as much as $300.00 to a low sell out price of $59.00 and have found no difference in the quality and durability. I have had them last a good 2 years to only a pitiful 6 months. I have had only one unit where the power supply went out and I compensated with a computer power supply until the unit died of another disease. What I usually have go out is the burner. I presently have my recorder where it can get plenty of air. I have a thick small book under each leg so that air can circulate freely underneath also. I have no idea if this helps, the important thing is that "I think it does" at this time.
I really wished that they would make the burners interchangable with computer hardware.
I have gotten to the point that I purchase the cheapest unit that I can find to do my recordings.
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My JVC DR-M10S is still going strong after tons of VHS to DVD conversions and off the air copies. I got it in less than a year after it came out. It was made in Japan and recommend to me by this Forum. It's a great recorder and I never experienced the loading problem with it.
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At long last, I have determined the answer to my question. Given a good quality recorder, on average about 2-3 years or about 1000 burned disks, barring bad luck. For a lesser quality recorder with no HDD, cut that in half. HDD models will last perhaps a year longer than non HDD models. Not a great track record for consumer electronics.
I'm asking the moderator to close this thread. It's served its purpose and it is time to lay it to rest.
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