VCR comparison: JVC HR-S9600 & Panasonic NV-FS200 (AG-1980)

[lordsmurf]

Great image Fulci. It's really easy to see noise on a low-depth background. All that "detail" is grain -- it's not supposed to be there. Splotchy chroma too, another issues myself and others have noticed on Panasonic machines.

[StuR]

DJ nice,
Why are you using 'Sharp' mode I never ever ever use it.
'Auto' mode is more than enough as Panasonic has a continual degree of sharpening in it's CVC (clear view system) which can't be turned off.
'Soft' provides a good image, even though it obviously want be so sharp.
The JVC 7600 is doing as good a job as it needs to on this particular tape so I wouldn't worry too much. From my experiance it may have problems on poorer tapes, the Panasonics TBC will do better on them.

[themaster1]

It's pretty obvious, the JVC rendering with DNR On is better with this particular tape(i believe it's a retail vhs, am i right ?).The image is soften but still has enough details whereas the panasonic has too much/unecessary details (in this particular case)

Now what about a comparison with jvc dnr off versus panasonic with the same tape aswell as an old tape recorded from tv? This would enlighten us.

[davideck]

Davideck, so in your opinion do you think the Panasonic is catching more detail then the JVC can --

It did on the first set of images in this thread. The large tiles in the upper right look like large rectangles on the JVC because their vertical edges have been lost. These edges are not noise. They are detail, and they look too far gone on the JVC to be recoverable.

Like the others here, I see no difference in detail on Fulci's images, and prefer the 7600 image. There is too much noise from the Panasonic, which doesn't even seem to be tracking properly.

[FulciLives]

I just want to point out that I converted the posted images from TGA to JPG so that other people could see the images without having to download them.

Anyways ... this appears to be just another case of "each videotape is unique and any given VCR may or may not be best depending on the videotape in question".

But of course in this case the JVC was the "best" or at least the better of the two (the other in this case being the Panny).

All in all this is pretty consistent with what LordSmurf has been saying for years now :P

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[djnice]

DJ nice,
Why are you using 'Sharp' mode I never ever ever use it.
'Auto' mode is more than enough as Panasonic has a continual degree of sharpening in it's CVC (clear view system) which can't be turned off.
'Soft' provides a good image, even though it obviously want be so sharp.
The JVC 7600 is doing as good a job as it needs to on this particular tape so I wouldn't worry too much. From my experiance it may have problems on poorer tapes, the Panasonics TBC will do better on them.

I just wonder which settings provide more detail, and the 'sharp' mode seemed the best for me.
I'll try the 'auto' mode too.

Fulci: Thanks for the jpg conversion.

[lordsmurf]

The JVC 7600 .. From my experiance it may have problems on poorer tapes, the Panasonics TBC will do better on them.

I've never been impressed by the Panasonic S-VHS TBC -- it behaves identical to the JVC, maybe even less effective. What does help on really ragged and crappy tapes is the Panasonic can sometimes track better. Davideck on this site is an apparent fan of the transports of the units, and this is why. But it's still not perfect -- the JVC and even my old 1981 deck has done better than the Panasonic sometimes.

It's not about any machine being better, but rather having an assortment of machines, and then finding which one does best on any particular tape. In general, the JVC gives the best image, and is therefore "best" for all intents and purposes. But not all tapes cooperate. It gets expensive, it takes time, and it's often best left to those who are serious, in a studio, or run their own video-related small business.

[StuR]

I just wonder which settings provide more detail, and the 'sharp' mode seemed the best for me.
I'll try the 'auto' mode too.

djnice
That's fine I always test all options but you can see in the pic that it's only emphasizing noise the 'sharp' setting is pointless, like most sharpening on VCR's it may have been useful when people copied 'tape to tape' as that softs a good deal.
You need to try the 'soft' setting too.
Regards davidecks comment on tracking - don't forget to look at the top and bottom on image for waves, if like on this tape just use the + P and - P on remote or front to fine tune. Press both together to restart 'auto-tracking'.
I've found the tracking pretty good on the Panasonic, especially on some old ex-rental tapes I bought recently some quite worn, hence stretched.

[robjv1]

Good discussion on this and that clears up a lot. I have three VCRs on my desk that I use when one fails and am looking to pick up another to track some particularly nasty tapes. It's too bad that you can't like mess with the tracking range on the VCR in real time since it's a mechanical function of the VCR. Some tapes I have will track fine for a few a seconds on one setting and then I get tracking lines, then they will move back. Other tapes track perfect on my JVCs and some just won't track properly at all. I wish I'd kept more of the original VCRs these old tapes were recorded on!

[DeLoach]

Hi everyone,
I’m mostly a lurker on this and many other forums, but this is a topic that really interests me. Great discussion, BTW on a topic I had begun to think was all but dead! I have MANY high end VHS machines I use in my budding Video Resto Business (JVC 9600, 9500 7800, 4600, 4500, Pan AG 7650, 1980, 1970), and I agree completely that different tapes sometimes require a particular machine to get the best out of them. I can usually dial it in pretty well with one of these VCR’s.

One of my favorite machines however (due mostly to its feature set) is a machine I cannot seem to get adjusted properly to output an acceptable image. It is a JVC BR-S378U. I acquired it in “like new” condition and I really like it, but I guess I just cannot figure out how to properly use it. Mostly the color is just not quite right, even with the white balance controls off, but the image also seems to be grainier with more noise. This in spite of its fancy "Hadamard Video Noise Reduction circuit", among others.

Does anyone have any knowledge of or experience with this model and could maybe shed some light on using it? As you know, it has some rather “unique” controls. I know it does not have TBC, but I also have 3 different standalone TBC units I can matrix it’s output through, so I don’t care too much about that. It seems to be a very well built machine with a really solid tape transport, but when I compare its output to the other machines, it always seems to come in last no matter how I adjust it. This is mostly running commercial VHS tapes. Any ideas?
Thanks, -Gary

[orsetto]

JVC has spewed forth more wacky "blink and you missed it" semi-pro SVHS specialty models than you can shake a stick at, some of them so ridiculously specialized that you have to wonder what product manager thought there would be an actual market for them. Most of these specialty units offer no advantage to the DVD archivist and in many cases they give poorer performance for our purposes than the higher-end consumer JVC models.

The BR-S378U is such a "special", made circa 1996. Its primary novelty feature was to allow dubbing new video over a pre-recorded HiFi audio track. This is difficult-to-impossible to achieve without erasing the audio signal, to pull it off JVC had specially modified heads and circuits made for this and a couple other models with this dubious feature. As you can imagine, it is a totally non-standard hack and the grainy picture result you see is caused partly by the modified audio/video systems and partly by the fact JVC along with every other mfr inexplicably made really grainy-playing VCRs from 1996-1999. If I'm not mistaken the SP (2hr) mode heads on this are the wider-gap pro spec, this allows more flexibility in specialty recorders but picks up more noise than picture signal during playback of many commercial and most home-recorded tapes. That might also be contributing to your grainy playback issue. I noticed one of these sitting disconnected on a shelf of less-used hardware at a post-production studio here in NYC a few years ago, they're pretty uncommon. It might be fun to keep around to play with, but it likely won't prove useful in your restoration business. You could have it professionally overhauled to be sure it hasn't become misaligned somehow, but since residual value on these units is less than $200 on average I'm not sure it would be worth it. Your external TBC and processor cannot substitute for the internal TBC/DNR found on the better JVC SVHS and DVHS models, they perform different functions, so the BR-S378U is less useful for lack of these.

[DeLoach]

Orsetto
Your knowledge in this area is absolutely amazing! Where does one get this kind of information? Were you working for JVC during those years?

What you say about the BR-S378U makes a lot of sense and is sort of what I was suspecting all along. Guess I will take it out of the rack and quit messing with it. Sigh. BTW, You said: “Its primary novelty feature was to allow dubbing new video over a pre-recorded HiFi audio track.” You meant to say “new audio” right?

Your comment re the SP (2hr) only mode heads is mostly right on. Although, the Panny AG-7650 does not seem to exhibit any of these problems. Other than its SP only limitation, this deck quite often yields the best image over any of my other units, even on commercial tapes. Considering its very sophisticated and fast transport system, it is my deck of choice most of the time.

Regarding the TBC’s, I have to mostly agree with you except for one. I have 4 of these, a Datavideo TBC-1000, AVT-8710, I.Den IVT-7. The one exception is an old Alta Group Cygnus 5.5. This thing is incredible. With this unit, I very often find myself turning off the internal TBC’s in favor of it. I snagged it on ebay in like new condition for $25. I didn’t even know if it would work at all. I had to special order some 7-pin dubbing S-Video to 4-pin S-Video cables at $35 EACH just to find out, but boy does it work! It is truly remarkable what this machine can do. I wish I could show you. Unfortunately its biggest drawback is that it is HUGE – fully 28 inches deep – and way too big for any standard shelf. But other than this one unit, I have to agree that the internal TBC’s are usually better. My favorites however are the JVC HR-S9500U (not the 9600 or 9800 like most would say) or the Panny AG-7650. But as I always say, this can change depending on the source video. This inconsistency is why I feel I need to have so many different decks and supporting equipment.

Thanks for your input!

[deuce8pro]

Orsetto
Your knowledge in this area is absolutely amazing! Where does one get this kind of information? Were you working for JVC during those years?

What you say about the BR-S378U makes a lot of sense and is sort of what I was suspecting all along. Guess I will take it out of the rack and quit messing with it. Sigh. BTW, You said: “Its primary novelty feature was to allow dubbing new video over a pre-recorded HiFi audio track.” You meant to say “new audio” right?

Your comment re the SP (2hr) only mode heads is mostly right on. Although, the Panny AG-7650 does not seem to exhibit any of these problems. Other than its SP only limitation, this deck quite often yields the best image over any of my other units, even on commercial tapes. Considering its very sophisticated and fast transport system, it is my deck of choice most of the time.

Regarding the TBC’s, I have to mostly agree with you except for one. I have 4 of these, a Datavideo TBC-1000, AVT-8710, I.Den IVT-7. The one exception is an old Alta Group Cygnus 5.5. This thing is incredible. With this unit, I very often find myself turning off the internal TBC’s in favor of it. I snagged it on ebay in like new condition for $25. I didn’t even know if it would work at all. I had to special order some 7-pin dubbing S-Video to 4-pin S-Video cables at $35 EACH just to find out, but boy does it work! It is truly remarkable what this machine can do. I wish I could show you. Unfortunately its biggest drawback is that it is HUGE – fully 28 inches deep – and way too big for any standard shelf. But other than this one unit, I have to agree that the internal TBC’s are usually better. My favorites however are the JVC HR-S9500U (not the 9600 or 9800 like most would say) or the Panny AG-7650. But as I always say, this can change depending on the source video. This inconsistency is why I feel I need to have so many different decks and supporting equipment.

Thanks for your input!

Do you get the flagging problem with the 9500 as I do?
When I dont have the flagging problem when playing a vhs tape back in this vcr. Its an incredible deck.
But it is prone to this problem. Not even the Panasonic ES10 can correct it as suggested on this board.
I dont get this same problem with the 9800, but that is prone more to jitters.

[DeLoach]

Do you get the flagging problem with the 9500 as I do?
When I dont have the flagging problem when playing a vhs tape back in this vcr. Its an incredible deck.
But it is prone to this problem. Not even the Panasonic ES10 can correct it as suggested on this board.
I dont get this same problem with the 9800, but that is prone more to jitters.

No, I have never noticed this problem. Although I do run a lot of things through the Alta Cygnus which would probably be correcting it if it were there. Even without the Cygnus though I do not remember ever having the flagging problem. The 9800 I had (and sold) didn't really have anything wrong with it, I just thought its image quality was inferior to the other VCR's I had, including the 9500. According to some, that fact alone suggested that there was probably something wrong with the 9800. I had my local tech go through it though and he couldn't find anything. That's when I decided to sell it.
-Gary

[orsetto]

Orsetto
Your knowledge in this area is absolutely amazing! Where does one get this kind of information? Were you working for JVC during those years?

What you say about the BR-S378U makes a lot of sense and is sort of what I was suspecting all along. Guess I will take it out of the rack and quit messing with it. Sigh. BTW, You said: “Its primary novelty feature was to allow dubbing new video over a pre-recorded HiFi audio track.” You meant to say “new audio” right?

Thanks for the compliment- flattery will get you everywhere with me!

No, I didn't work for JVC but I've spent a l-o-n-g time over the years trying to break into the post-production field, had lots of interning and training and experience with this semi-pro gear. Pretty much all its accomplished is to make me into a hardware savant fit only to respond to random questions on forums.

I meant what I said re your unit was customized to allow dubbing new video over an existing hifi audio track. Both audio and video are recorded together on the same high-speed track laid down by the rotary audio and video heads. Normally it is impossible to insert new video without erasing the hifi audio at the same time. But certain rare JVC decks had specially modified heads which could selectively erase and rerecord only the video portion of the track, while leaving the hifi audio track largely untouched. They were able to manage this trick because in VHS HiFi the audio track is laid down first and embedded "deeper" in the tape, the higher-frequency video signal is then overlaid at a more "shallow" level. By dint of trickery some units were able to reduce the current of the flying erase heads just enough to wipe the video but not the audio. The system never really worked very well in practice and is almost completely forgotten: had you not inspired me to research your BR-S378U, I would have sworn this variation never actually made it beyond the prototype stage. Apparently it did, at least for a couple of short-lived experimental models like yours.

Certain faulty tapes will jitter like all hell on nearly any JVC that incorporates internal TBC/DNR circuits, they are especially sensitive to jitter in multi-generational copies. There is no workaround, sometimes if you switch off the TBC/DNR the jitter will reduce or vanish but not always. In such cases you need to use a simpler consumer VCR, sometimes going back to a very old 2-head unit with narrow head gaps is the only solution. Or in a few cases a Panasonic AG1980 or 1970 will lock the signal down enough to be acceptable. Excessive jitter is one of those random tape "gotchas" that is totally unpredictable and highly resistant to repair.

[DeLoach]

Orsetto:
Maybe you can clarify a puzzling issue for me concerning the Panny AG-7650. Almost every “Broadcast” type S-VHS deck I have tried has yielded less than optimal results when playing Std VHS tapes, most likely due to the optimization of these machines to the S-VHS format – EXCEPT the AG-7650. Why is this? Could it be because it was engineered (and optimized) as a PLAYBACK deck first? I am just a bit puzzled why I am getting such outstanding results from this deck when according to most of the pundits I shouldn’t be.
Thanks,
-Gary

[themaster1]

I just have experienced the other side of the force aka the dark force

The tbc works bad with a relatively good vhs (as good as most the vhs i own at least) (flaggin problem at the top) so i have to switch it off.

Any idea of why is that? First time i encounter this problem so i'm dubutative.

I was taught the field order is always top field first on vhs tapes but could it be bottom first?
I say this because altough, overall, this tape to me is like all the others, there seems to have a field problem at times... i'm not sure.

If for example the source of the content on my vhs was originally played from a Dv camcorder (Dv= bottom filed first) and duplicated on vhs, i'd assume on the vhs i'd get the same field order, makes sense for you?

Someone enlighten me

[classfour]

I have a JVC HRS-7500 that was flagging each and every tape. Cleaned the heads with denatured alcohol and cured it.

[lordsmurf]

Field order is determined by the capture device.

[themaster1]

The capture device you say? Alright i note that
As far as cleaning the heads,i'm thinking of it since some time now, i just need to buy the adequat alcohol.
Some people say the best is acetone+a chamois or alcohol isopropylic

[lordsmurf]

Denatured or isopropyl (70% minimum).

[theaveng]

PANA, TBC, NODNR

3.jpg

I think this image looks best. You can see the stubble on the man's face. ----- With the JVC version, the stubble disappears which is loss of information, and speaking as an engineer, I HATE losing information in my signals.

[theaveng]

... picture set to softest is the way to go.
If you want detail, id suggest hd/blue ray dvd's, not vhs.

Okay. Thanks for the suggestion. Now where can I find "Troy in 1985, age 13" on Bluray?

Please point me to the relevant store. 'k' thanks.

(point

(A lot of these tapes we are transferring are only available on VHS or Super vhs, and that's why want to preserve as much detail as possible.)

[lordsmurf]

PANA, TBC, NODNR
3.jpg

I think this image looks best. You can see the stubble on the man's face. ----- With the JVC version, the stubble disappears which is loss of information, and speaking as an engineer, I HATE losing information in my signals.

That's not stubble! Not unless his coat has stubble too!

You're confusing generated noise with "detail". Stop it.

[theaveng]

Enter the DVD transfer of "Grand Hotel". .....In one critical scene (the murder of the hotel thief), that loss of shadow detail changes the character of the scene; Joan Crawford's dramatic reaction, which occurs in a shadowy area of the scene, just gets lost behind a thick cloak of overemphasized grain.

That's not film grain. That's MPEG2 compression that leads to macro-blocking. My copies of Star Trek DS9 have the exact same flaw in dark scenes.

That's a flaw of digital video, not the film.

[theaveng]

That's not stubble! Not unless his coat has stubble too! You're confusing generated noise with "detail". Stop it.

Black noise? That's a new one. Okay. How about the tiles in the background? In the JVC they are all blurred together, but in the Panasonic you can see the individual squares.

Clearly the Panasonic has a wider horizontal bandwidth (resolution). The OP didn't use a chart, but I'd estimate the JVC is only putting out 2.7 megahertz (subpar) while while the Panasonic is providing a full 3.0 megahertz bandwidth per VHS spec.

[orsetto]

Orsetto:
Maybe you can clarify a puzzling issue for me concerning the Panny AG-7650. Almost every “Broadcast” type S-VHS deck I have tried has yielded less than optimal results when playing Std VHS tapes, most likely due to the optimization of these machines to the S-VHS format – EXCEPT the AG-7650. Why is this? Could it be because it was engineered (and optimized) as a PLAYBACK deck first? I am just a bit puzzled why I am getting such outstanding results from this deck when according to most of the pundits I shouldn’t be.
Thanks,
-Gary

Gary, my apologies for not responding sooner, I had a net outage back in March and somehow your question slipped by me. The likely reason your AG7650 seems to perform better on consumer VHS playback than most other "broadcast" units is its specialized built-in TBC/DNR with Faroudja chroma processor. This was a fairly uncommon feature, combined with under-the-hood mechanical alterations that optimize it for play-only installations it seems like an interesting option for making DVD transfers. If it has been working well for you, keep using it, no need to try other VCRs unless you're dissatisfied.