considering options for converting 8mm & hi 8mm to digital

[lollo]

Indeed. But if we did not start talking about the Cloner AP, we would not have that wonderful sample

It means nothing, from the Cloner AP point of view is just a capture of a HDMI stream. The capture aspects are elsewhere

[Graay]

Indeed. But if we did not start talking about the Cloner AP, we would not have that wonderful sample

It means nothing, from the Cloner AP point of view is just a capture of a HDMI stream. The capture aspects are elsewhere

Yes the Sony D8 does the convert of the Video 8. Yes the Panasonic EH57 converts to HDMI. The Cloner AP captures at best quality via HDMI; it does not have a FireWire in, although it has plenty of other ins and outs including VGA, AV, YPbPr, computer out and a mic.

The original OP was trying to decide whether to replace his old camera with a D8, so using one in my suggested capture process is very relevant.

[lollo]

The original OP was trying to decide whether to replace his old camera with a D8, so using one in my suggested capture process is very relevant.

In that case, the original OP should directly capture the DV stream, instead of using 2 useless (and potentially deleterious) additional devices as in your suggested capture process.

[Graay]

The original OP was trying to decide whether to replace his old camera with a D8, so using one in my suggested capture process is very relevant.

In that case, the original OP should directly capture the DV stream, instead of using 2 useless (and potentially deleterious) additional devices as in your suggested capture process.

I note you do not offer any suggestions - just 1 line offerings using words and phrases like "useless' and "it is nothing'.

My method works for me, I'm happy - let it go.

[lordsmurf]

The Cloner AP captures at best quality

No.

I'm happy - let it go.

No. You decided to share this awful method, so it's being dismantled as the bad idea it is, to warn other future readers.

[Bwaak]

My method works for me, I'm happy - let it go.

I wonder why do you capture DV through a DVD recorder into HDMI onto the Cloner AP?

You computer does not have a Firewire card? They are as cheap as $10.

Your computer is a laptop? Well, a refurbished Win7 PC costs about $150, the Cloner AP costs about $180, but then again maybe you don't want to buy a huge desktop PC.

Still, I am curious how have you decided on this particular capture chain. @12voltvids explained that for him Cloner AP is good enough as he is doing this for his customers, the box is standalone and self-sufficient, and the moment the tape stops playing, the conversion is done - easy. No need to think about resolutions and bitrates either.

It means nothing, from the Cloner AP point of view is just a capture of a HDMI stream. The capture aspects are elsewhere

I do not agree, it does not just capture the HDMI stream. I don't think the 60.00 fps is produced by a DVD recorder, which is wrong for an NTSC tape and is doubly wrong for a PAL tape.

[lollo]

The original OP was trying to decide whether to replace his old camera with a D8, so using one in my suggested capture process is very relevant.

In that case, the original OP should directly capture the DV stream, instead of using 2 useless (and potentially deleterious) additional devices as in your suggested capture process.

I note you do not offer any suggestions - just 1 line offerings using words and phrases like "useless' and "it is nothing'.

My suggestion is what I wrote: directly capture the DV stream.

It means nothing, from the Cloner AP point of view is just a capture of a HDMI stream. The capture aspects are elsewhere

I do not agree, it does not just capture the HDMI stream. I don't think the 60.00 fps is produced by a DVD recorder, which is wrong for an NTSC tape and is doubly wrong for a PAL tape.

Obviously I meant the "capture" as the Analog to Digital conversion. Any further manipulation of the digital stream is not completely relevant, although can be interesting to compare a post-capture processing (recommended) versus a real-time processing.

[Graay]

The Cloner AP captures at best quality

No.

I'm happy - let it go.

No. You decided to share this awful method, so it's being dismantled as the bad idea it is, to warn other future readers.

You mis-quote me, I wrote "The Cloner AP captures at best quality via HDMI".
The Cloner AP does not have a FireWire, so HDMI is the best quality when using that device, compared to RCA cables etc.

I posted the question previously in this thread - "Compared to what" (Regarding my suggested process to the OP being "an awful method")
The experts in this thread don't seem to offer any alternate solutions or post any video samples themselves, rather promoting outdated equipment that requires Dinosaur pc's and eye wateringly expensive capture cards for computers.
(It is also claimed by one of your fiercest internet critics that you sell those very same pieces of hardware).

So it becomes obvious as soon as one starts offering an alternative method it is a challenge to some, especially when it is very easy process that results in an MP4 file that is very watchable without the use of a PC, in the process.

I only recently discovered Video Help, found it very useful when needing knowledge about Betacord, however disappointed in this thread of where you offer no help for the OP, instead most of you posting one line replies telling me how bad my suggested model is - when it is absolutely not.

[Bwaak]

most of you posting one line replies telling me how bad my suggested model is - when it is absolutely not.

You are converting, as far as I understand, 25i into 60p - is this correct? To me, this is the biggest problem.
You are converting 4:3 into 16:9 with 4:3 pillarboxed inside it - at least it looks ok on a widescreen TV, and many people find this acceptable.
You are converting 1.36 AR into 1.33 AR - a minor issue.
I personally don't care about it being AVC at low bitrate, I think it is good enough, others take issue with this but not me.

[Graay]

most of you posting one line replies telling me how bad my suggested model is - when it is absolutely not.

You are converting, as far as I understand, 25i into 60p - is this correct? To me, this is the biggest problem.
You are converting 4:3 into 16:9 with 4:3 pillarboxed inside it - at least it looks ok on a widescreen TV, and many people find this acceptable.
You are converting 1.36 AR into 1.33 AR - a minor issue.
I personally don't care about it being AVC at low bitrate, I think it is good enough, others take issue with this but not me.

[Attachment 75915 - Click to enlarge]

Thank you @Bwaak for your considered responses.

I believe you are correct and that the Cloner AP does 60P capture by default and therefore is not perfect for PAL users but as far as clarity, colour and stability the result is the best I have had with my poor quality (V8 out of focus) aging tapes.

Your analysis & responses prompted me to do further research - to find if I used the computer via the Cloner AP I could set for PAL - but apparently the Cloner manipulates the frames to achieve this (by adding or removing frames I forget which but you will know) which can be problematic to the "workflow".

For an average PAL (lay person) user the Cloner AP gives a great result in an all in one capture to flash drive, with the ability to use the remote to pause/stop the capture lessening the need to edit the container or codec later, but if required the supplied software can trim, combine, or convert and doesn't seem to lessen quality. I might be wrong but the software is specific to the device.

In the past I have captured to a card (reasonable quality card on W7) but was quietly disappointed by the result and it lacked colour, it was grainy and a little unstable. Burning to DVD may have reduced the quality further - then eventually the worn DVD's became unplayable, just when we wanted to spend time re-watching the DVD's to augment 35 year old memories of kids and travels.

The resulting play back on a widescreen TV is 4:3 aspect ratio which looks best in my opinion for these old videos.
It does have "gunk" at the base (ever so slight rolling "noise") but it doesn't bother me that it is not perfect, and I don't crop it out, rather it adds to the antiquity of the video.

[lordsmurf]

The experts in this thread don't seem to offer any alternate solutions

"capture"/transfer the DV stream via Firewire.

rather promoting outdated equipment that requires Dinosaur pc's and eye wateringly expensive capture cards for computers.

Converting video was a 2000s task. It's now the 2020s. You're a decades late to the party. You're not going to find anything quality sold new in stores. What you'll see now is cheap Chinese junk for newbie suckers that procrastinated. Many of us try to save you from buying this crap.

Furthermore, the costs for video were never cheap. The budget for quality video gear should match the budget for a nice desktop/laptop computer ("gaming" systems, Mac, etc, not the Walmart Black Friday special), or even a lawnmower (riding or push). Not the budget for lunch, not a month of Netflix, which is what some people wrongly think. You're buying tools here, not a cheeseburger.

(It is also claimed by one of your fiercest internet critics

Fiercest? Are you referring to that nobody on Youtube, who attempt to convince others that his 1990s technology Canopus ADVC box is best? Well, if you want your video in low quality, then follow his advice to the letter.

that you sell those very same pieces of hardware).

Correct. I started to refurb gear for others in 2016, because it all began to fall in disrepair (VCRs, TBCs, capture cards). But I was advising people to use this gear in the late 90s, 00s, and early 10s, long before anything was sold. So there goes that conspiracy.

it is very easy process that results in an MP4 file that is very watchable without the use of a PC, in the process.

... and also looks like shit.

[Graay]

It appears the above responder hasn't directly engaged with or utilized the process proposed to the original poster.

Rather assessment of the process seems to be based on their general knowledge and vintage experience in the field rather than personal use of the suggested hardware.

This might introduce a level of subjectivity or assumption in their evaluation of its capabilities or shortcomings.

While the individual might have expertise in related areas, the assessment of a specific process they haven't personally used might lack first-hand experience, potentially leading to a less accurate or biased evaluation.

[lordsmurf]

It appears the above responder hasn't directly engaged with or utilized the process proposed to the original poster.

Ah yes, the logical fallacy of "you don't know until you tried". Fine, let's play. Jumping off a cliff. You first.

FYI, to others reading this, the "fallacy" aspect, in this exact cases, is because he doesn't understand the underlying facts of video here. One doesn't need to "try" anything, as DV, p60, etc, are all quantifiable. So there's no need to test every POS out there, because it all uses the same fundamentally flawed inferior bad methodology.

[harrypm]

[Attachment 76075 - Click to enlarge]

We really have hit the peak Sony 8mm format digitastion, here is it all summed up in 1 workflow image.

Its also worth nothing that there is USB adapters for both of Sonys camcorder type connectors, and the NP-F battery system to 5V 3A & 9V PD if you dont want to use AC power bricks widly avalible of AliExpress/Alibaba using regulated buck boost converters camcorders are so low wattage any proper powerbank can now power them.

[Alwyn]

Edited.

[Bwaak]

[Attachment 76075 - Click to enlarge]

We really have hit the peak Sony 8mm format digitastion, here is it all summed up in 1 workflow image.

I don't think that there is a consumer-grade dongle that outputs 10-bit video, so encoding it into 10-bit codec seems excessive.

Also, capturing audio into 24-bit 192 kHz FLAC is insane. AFM audio is CD quality at best, while digital PCM audio is even worse.

S-Video is not the "best" way; it only results in comparable-quality video to PAL DV (I haven't tested NTSC DV).

SVideo is the best for Video8 and Hi8 if one has a decent A/D converter and knows what he is doing. Firewire is the best for Digital8.

[Alwyn]

SVideo is the best for Video8 and Hi8 if one has a decent A/D converter and knows what he is doing. Firewire is the best for Digital8.

True. Post edited.

[dellsam34]

[Attachment 76075 - Click to enlarge]

There is a mistake in that diagram, DV PAL is 4:2:0 not 4:2:2. Also iOS can capture analog from S-Video/composite, although it's a pain in the a$$.

[glen_s]

Wow this thread blew up..

Anyway an update, I just received my Sony DCR-TRV310 camcorder that I bought from Japan on Ebay, the seller had a good rep & said it was in near mint condition, which it seems to be.

I connected it to my startech USB converter and am converting a couple of tapes on it with OBS, quality seems acceptable.

I have an old Dell laptop with Vista on it with a 1394 port on it, and I think there's probably an older macbook or two kicking around that might have a port too, so I may try transferring via firewire if I can pick up a cable and get the old hardware working.

[dellsam34]

Why everyone is going OBS? Is vdub that bad? It use to be the go to capture software for years.

[lordsmurf]

Why everyone is going OBS? Is vdub that bad? It use to be the go to capture software for years.

Mostly ignorance. And the false idea that newer is better. Most don't realize OBS treats capture cards like webcams, and was never intended for videotape capture. That has lossy implications.

[Bwaak]

Why everyone is going OBS?

Mac? Linux? The author of a popular VDub-based digitization guide on YouTube made a second version with OBS.

[harrypm]

[Attachment 76075 - Click to enlarge]

We really have hit the peak Sony 8mm format digitastion, here is it all summed up in 1 workflow image.

I don't think that there is a consumer-grade dongle that outputs 10-bit video, so encoding it into 10-bit codec seems excessive.

Also, capturing audio into 24-bit 192 kHz FLAC is insane. AFM audio is CD quality at best, while digital PCM audio is even worse.

S-Video is not the "best" way; it only results in comparable-quality video to PAL DV (I haven't tested NTSC DV).

SVideo is the best for Video8 and Hi8 if one has a decent A/D converter and knows what he is doing. Firewire is the best for Digital8.

Firstly the GV2-USB is well established YUV2 4:2:2 10-bit feeds its the easycrap killer of plug and play. (its not a MISRC but its pretty good)

Digital8 is a DV file on tape same as MiniDV, you have to read the context of the whole workflow its about Video8 & Hi8, so I fixed that on the new version.

This diagram is going over Video8/Hi8 via a Digital8 camcorder which is the best hardware based S-Video output with its last gen ADC/DAC systems, alongside a DV25 converted firewire stream for preserving the RCTC timecode data from Hi8 tapes as ancillary stream data and also most of these digital8 camcorders have FM RF output suitable for archival and later decoding with vhs-decode/hifi-decode via the single RF signal on a plug and play jig board via FPC cable as its 1 FM RF signal point its very streamlined to get good captures and decodes.

192khz 24-bit FLAC was the only mode HiFi-Decode could decode the FM carrier to at the time of diagram creation, now you can just set it to output to whatever you want from 44.1/48/92/192 etc 48khz 24-bit is the defacto in the standard workflow now.

I will also note the FireWire control (also LANC too can I suppose to some degreee) can tell the camcorder to rewind and start playback making remote capture quite nice and it also allows for automated scripting to capture S-Video/FM RF/DV25 at the same time, I really like the DVgrab commands for doing this.

OBS Studio is not usable for analog digtisation, it cant encode native interlaced feeds and its real-time de-interlacers are piss poor compared to QTGMC/W3DIF etc its ment for and intended for progressive locked or local system source production not "broadcast" production, if they cared about that its FFmpeg libarys would have interlacing enabled to natively encode it and send out interlaced feeds, hence why its blanket banned as a recommended ingest tool, if your a Mac/Linux user then you can just go pickup blackmagic TB3 or SDI kit and deploy v-record or the desktop app (Media Express) with ease plug and play straight to v210 or FFV1 files.

But anyways with the last updates to vhs-decode this month, there is no point in S-Video/FireWire outside of refrance and getting that RCTC data, the S-Video TBC files created by vhs-decode from the RF is better SNR then the DACs on the S-Video ports on the physical hardware could produce, and as its 1 FM signal post sync is easy for audio.

And yeah only DVCPro was 4:2:2 8-bit that was a typo DV PAL is not 4:2:2 but 4:2:0 8-bit.

I have attached a updated version with some better workflow context added, as this year all diagrams are getting updated anyways.


[Attachment 77159 - Click to enlarge]

[dellsam34]

Thanks for expanding on OBS, Would the coders be able to make a lightweight custom capture software like MediaExpress with automatic detection of the source format and resolution and a simple lossless plugin such as HyffYUV for output? No other functions needed, just capture, since vdub2 is still a good editor and QTGMC is good for de-interlacing.

[Alwyn]

OBS Studio is not usable for analog digtisation, it cant encode native interlaced feeds

Take a look at the video in this post.

its real-time de-interlacers are piss poor compared to QTGMC/W3DIF etc

That may be so, but the OBS target market is not people who can use QTGMC. You could say the same thing about the deinterlacers in VDub, but again, different market.

[Bwaak]

You could say the same thing about the deinterlacers in VDub, but again, different market.

I think that MSU Deinterlacer is ok, but it is dog slow.

[harrypm]

Thanks for expanding on OBS, Would the coders be able to make a lightweight custom capture software like MediaExpress with automatic detection of the source format and resolution and a simple lossless plugin such as HyffYUV for output? No other functions needed, just capture, since vdub2 is still a good editor and QTGMC is good for de-interlacing.

Blackmagic have updated drivers and a SDK, but its hardware automatically locks format, MediaExpress is just a wrapper for FFmpeg and some deck control code nothing fancy, you can literally use direct capture via FFmpeg regardless of platform or hardware the feeds are just like a USB device, you dont need a gui to config a encode command and hit start/stop just need to be able to physically monitor the live feed, this is why I like Magewell kit a lot these days they just expose the whole ADV chips output mode list to the system.

I'm based around MediaExpress and VRecord nowdays purly for refrance captures and its commerically used now with a lot of Mac based transfer houses, as it can encode HuffYUV/FFV1 nativly in 10-bit or 8-bit, after suffering I got it deployed on Linux Mint, its wonderful for what it is and the only way to get okay ish LTC/VITC timecode reading off standard hardware outside of ld-process-vbi or hardware readers.

OBS Studio is not usable for analog digtisation, it cant encode native interlaced feeds

Take a look at the video in this post.

its real-time de-interlacers are piss poor compared to QTGMC/W3DIF etc

That may be so, but the OBS target market is not people who can use QTGMC. You could say the same thing about the deinterlacers in VDub, but again, different market.

Until OBS can produce a properly flagged TFF/BFF, Interlaced file on its inital capture and or intergrate KTGMC, I would not recommned it for any ingest of interlaced sources outside of locked digital and so would anyone else dealing with it in high value or archival situations, the devs have said many times its only intended for modern progressive workflows and when there is outher options there is no point caring or working around it, It would be wonderful if OBS was made into a broadcast level tool but its just not there its ment for streamers, even I use it for ProRes 1080p50 feeds rather then an external recorder somtimes with waveforms/vectorscope and chaptermarker plugins its very useful.

[dellsam34]

Blackmagic have updated drivers and a SDK, but its hardware automatically locks format, MediaExpress is just a wrapper for FFmpeg and some deck control code nothing fancy, you can literally use direct capture via FFmpeg regardless of platform or hardware the feeds are just like a USB device, you dont need a gui to config a encode command and hit start/stop

Yes, nothing fancy, this is the reason it works. But the lack of compressed lossless output on the MediaExpress and non compatibility with other hardware is the reason for my question if it is possible to make a simple non fancy, lightweight capture program. I'm not asking for myself, I use ME and I don't have any issues, I can also use other tools, I'm asking for the community of an average person to use without fiddling with any parameters such in vdub or OBS. So the ability to launch the app and hit capture without the need to do anything else like in MediaExpress is the goal here.