What happened to CDI ?

[SingSing]

I am work on VCD and Pciture CD, and think they actually
co-exist. The reason maybe they are defined as CDI applications.
Nero support this approach ( The european things ).

But are there still CDI stand alone player, or software player still exist.

What happened to those player sold by phillips/magavox during
their infomerical blitz ?

[vitualis]

They don't co-exist.

VCD is VCD and PhotoCD is PhotoCD (which is completely different to PictureCD BTW).

They just both happen to be CD-i compatible in the specs and each have their respective DIFFERENT CD-i applications.

As for what happened to CD-i? It wasn't a success and production stopped sometime in the 1990s.

Nero doesn't support the production of CD-i discs I believe. It just adds the relevant CD-i application for VCD (which is required for White Book compliance though it doesn't actually do anything unless you own a CD-i player).

If you are interested in this technology, have a look at: http://www.icdia.org/

Regards.

[SingSing]

With VCD template, I drap and drop picture into Nero, burn it.

AND it play on Pioneer DV333 as a slide show.

Does it imply it is VERY easy to make a photo CD !
Instead of usinf many tools and try to fool DVD palyer to play stills.

[vitualis]

You've made a VCD with high resolution MPEG stills with Nero.

No DVD player has the ability to play back PhotoCD.

Some DVD players can play back PictureCD (which is essentially JPEG images on a CD-ROM).

You don't have to "fool" the player to play back stills. High resolution MPEG stills are part of the VCD standard and you can use them on any VCD and be fairly certain that they will work (that or the player is broken).

People use "other tools" because they don't like how Nero works. Nero made menus / stills are buggy and don't work on some players. It is also rather restrictive on what you can do.

From memory (I say this on a technology show about 10 years ago on the real PhotoCD), these discs require either a CD-i player or it's own specialised stand-alone player. DVD players are not CD-i players and will not play back any CD-i discs apart from VCD. One of the core functionalities of PhotoCD was that you could select to view any particular photo on the disc and ZOOM IN (?twice).

Regards.

[SingSing]

They are many claims and definitions of what is
Photo CD, and what is Picture CD.

Kodak, and other firm have many version, and none
of them become an universal standard. kodak, juji, sony..
..at el. basically resolve to ask user to store picture at their special web sites.

The one I care is that it can play on DVD players. Nero does.
I hope nero does not down scale my jpeg, which is typically
1.3M or 2M.

[Cornucopia]

I don't know where you're getting this stuff about all these different formats, but that is just plain WRONG!

These are the internationally recognized Official Standard formats for CD:

1. CD-DA or Audio CD, c.1983 [RedBook]
2. CD-ROM or DATA CD (esp. ISO9660 but also Mac), c.1985 [YellowBook]
3. CD-I or CD-Interactive, c.1987 [GreenBook]
4. VideoCD, c.1991 (for v1.1) and c.1993 (for v2.0) [WhiteBook]
5. PhotoCD, c.1992 [Based on OrangeBook, but proprietary Kodak]
6. EnhancedCD, c.1995 [BlueBook, but there are variants]
7. SuperVideoCD, c.1997

PhotoCD is a close cousin to VideoCD, in terms of physical/track structure, more different in terms of logical/file format and layout. PhotoCD's primarily show data in the form of PhotoCD files (*.pcd), while VideoCD's show data in the form of MPEG files (*.dat).

PhotoCDs are still being used by MAJOR Pro photographers and Graphics/Stock Footage houses, and probably by medical imaging organizations. But since the authoring stations are almost impossible to come by, there won't be much growth here. If you want more info, try Ted Felix's Unofficial PhotoCD website

PictureCD has superceded PhotoCD for consumers, and is based on less proprietary standards. Basically a CD-ROM (ISO9660)disc with *.jpg files on it, and a PC player/editor/printer application bundled along. This has the additional effect of allowing home-authored variants. But there is only one standard format of PictureCD that is being supported by hardware DVD players-Kodak PictureCD (there's probably a trademark after).

To summarize what Vitualis has already said quite well, there are certain standard formats of still / slideshow Discs that can be played on a hardware player:

1. CD-I, via CD-I player (not likely)
2. PhotoCD, via PhotoCD or CD-I player (only slightly more likely)
3. VideoCD -using MPEG stills-, via VCD, CD-I or DVD player (very likely)
4. SVCD -using MPEG stills-, via SVCD or DVD player (pretty likely)
5. DVD -using MPEG stills-, via DVD player (quite likely)
6. PictureCD -using JPEGs-, via DVD player (more likely in future players)

This assumes the specific DVD player can recognize and support playback of the listed format.

Hope that clears things up OAFA.

Scott

[SingSing]

The long list of formats that you posted are from likely to unlikely.

Let me post something that is : It work, simple, easy to use, and have both video and high resolution. The only things you need is Nero and fists full of jpeg pictures.

1. Open Nero VCD template.
2. Check [x] store picture in picture folder.
3. Drap all the jpeg into the VCD.
4. Change all items properties from : wait inifinitely to wait 1 second.
5. Burn the VCD.
6. Stick it in your DVD player, Now you have a slid show VCD that change every 1 second for every picture.
7. If you want to print/send any pictures in its original resolution, just goto the picture folder, and get it.

Those boys in Nero figure it all out, did a great job, and obviously unstand the spec and make a great product.

I can go serach te web for both kodak vs adaptec vs phillips vs pciture CD vs ... vs ... stuff, but they are just words and useless to most of us, because they don't work.

[Cornucopia]

You have been somewhat misinformed. Nero, while being a quite good burning and authoring app, can only do a subset of what's possible with the full VCD spec. It can create a VCD with video (352x240/288 rez) or VCD with stills (704x480/576 rez), but NOT both together. It also cannot create Hi-rez stills with audio (if there is audio-it becomes video w/ video rez). It also can't do very good/complex/deeplevel menus.

VCDImager & friends can do all those things. Not as EZ an interface, but more raw power available to the user.

Also, be clear that you are only doing a PhotoVCD or VCD using stills--NOT a PictureCD or PhotoCD.

Why would you want to anyway, right?

If resolution and picture quality are a premium for you this would make a difference.
VCD's, even using Hi-Rez stills, have max rez of 704x480/576.
Ok, even if you keep the original still photo files in a separate folder in the ISO9660 track, you probably got what? ~1500x1000, and they're most likely JPEG (with all their artifacts).

Std. Master PhotoCD's have highest rez of 3072x2048.
Pro Master PhotoCD's have 6144x4096!!
Won't look any better on a TV set, which is probably what you want, but if you were wanting to make a print of it... The difference is rediculous!
Try printing an 11" x 17" photo of something with TV resolution.

Sorry to jabber on just to make a point.
Just don't keep on calling it a PhotoCD (or PictureCD), when it isn't.
And know that there are plenty of apps out there that can do (Photo)VCD, some a good deal better than Nero.

Ok, I'm done.

Scott

[vitualis]

As what Cornucopia has said eloquently.

SingSing, you are not making PictureCD or PhotoCD. You are making a Video-CD with MPEG Still Images.

That is, you are making a VCD.

Regards.

[SingSing]

Std. Master PhotoCD's have highest rez of 3072x2048.
Pro Master PhotoCD's have 6144x4096!!
Won't look any better on a TV set, which is probably what you want, but if you were wanting to make a print of it... The difference is rediculous!
Try printing an 11" x 17" photo of something with TV resolution.

Sorry to jabber on just to make a point.Scott

I think you miss one of the two key points : It retain the original pictures in the "picture" folder. So the jpeg can be from 640 x 480 t0 5 meg and beyond.. The beauty is that it is not limited ( I hope ).

The remaining keypoint is : this is a video slide show VCD. The topics may start up to see wether CDI is a good cadidate. But the standard is dead. So is those picture CD player that kodak once made.

This is not IEEE type issue. Whatever work with the population ( the original folks ) count. Kodak, Adaptec, Sony can't twist our arms.

[Cornucopia]

I actually understood the points you mention, and for one, I agree that you can put the original photo files in a subfolder (e.g. PHOTOS). There is a practical limit though.
If you do-it-yourself with the digital camera upload, or analog film scanning, and use a general purpose CD burner app such as NERO (WinOnCD, VCD2Tk,VCDEasy could do this as well), you can get as large a file and as large a folder as your camera can capture or you disc can hold. However, if you have a lower/mid range digital cam or if you use a scanning service at your local photofinisher you WILL end up with a max resolution per picture of ~1500x1000. I have checked and a number of major US scanning services including KODAK restrict the rez to that level. I believe the thinking is that this is just a "Consumer" format and is not worthy of the investment for higher resolution.

On the other note, you're right CD-I is for all purposes, DEAD. There were some cool features it would be nice to have resurrected sometime in the future, though. As far as PhotoCD--Only the player standard, and any home-PC authoring-oriented option, is dead. As I said before, Film Photo Pros are still creating discs for it, and it is still very readable on computer. PictureCD is still very much alive, and growing. I expect this feature to be added to most new DVD players in the upcoming model year just like MP3 file capability started taking off in these last 2 years.

Sounds like you're quite pleased with Nero's PhotoVCD features. More power to ya! The point about it taking only 5 steps is well taken. I could have a much flashier and complex disc created via VCDImager/VCDEasy, but it would probably take over 40 steps! Most of the time I don't mind that.

Scott

[vitualis]

I think you miss one of the two key points : It retain the original pictures in the "picture" folder. So the jpeg can be from 640 x 480 t0 5 meg and beyond.. The beauty is that it is not limited ( I hope ).

This point has not been missed by anyone.

As I have highlighted many times, you can put additional files on the VCD filesystem. This is what Nero does. It does not make it any less a VCD.

Regards.

[SingSing]

The good digital cameras that consumer can buy now are as good as those in the photo studio. The file size of an uncompressed 5.02 megapixel ( 2560 x 1920 ) picture in TIFF is 5 millions bits = approx 0.625 Mbytes.

Up to a 1000 of these can fit into one CD.

That's the point.

[SingSing]

Correction.

A raw 5 megapixel picture is 10MB ( RAW ) or 15MB ( TIFF ), and 3.7MB in super high quality jpeg.

The number of very high res pictures that a CD can hold is between 45 to 200.

The point is still the same.

[Nelson37]

Sure you can put JPG files on a CD, but that is not a standard, it is just files on a CD. A given DVD player may or may not play them as such.

A VCD with still MPG images, @ 720x480, IS standard and will be read by almost any DVD player.

Even with JPG viewing enabled on the player, which will be more common, there is probably some practical limit, either imposed by hardware or in the way the system is programmed.

There is also the aspect ratio consideration, with most VCD/SVCD slideshow creation programs correcting this, viewing standard (uncorrected) photos often gives an unattractive appearance.

[SingSing]

If you follow this thread, then you should notice this is about a VCD with a video slide show that also served as a jpeg storage.

The jpeg pictures are in a folder in this VCD.

The slide show size is typically small, bacause the pictures have been re-size to VCD resolution. Thus most of the space on the CD are availabled.

The pictures are re-size into the slide show automatically and with right aspect ratio. This is the other good things that happened.

If you want to skip fore and back amongs the pictures, you can turn on the VCD MENU option in Nero. I believe three or four clicks is all it need to get setup.

[hp_lovecraft]

As for what happened to CD-i? It wasn't a success and production stopped sometime in the 1990s

Does that mean I can finally remove all the CDI stuff from my XML VCDImager templates? What is it good for...

J/K

Nick

[vitualis]

SingSing, I really don't know if you are obtuse or something... You still don't get it.

The images that are displayed on the TV off a VCD (which is what Nero makes) are the MPEG Still Images. They are the DAT files in the SEGMENT folder.

The JPEG source images it puts on the disc (with Nero or so VCDImager) are just for storage. They don't get read by the stand-alone device.

You can put ANY image as the source file. It doesn't matter. You can put it as any format as big as you want. The limiting factor is the CD medium's size restraints.

In any case, what is your POINT? The above facts are not under dispute. YOU are not the first person to learn of this wonderous fact... This is a well known fact by the general public for quite a long time. Nero is not the first program to do this either.

Good god, what are you on about? At the beginning of this thread you were confusing PhotoCD with PictureCD or with VCD. They you seemed confused at what Nero does when it makes a VCD.

Regards.

[vitualis]

As for what happened to CD-i? It wasn't a success and production stopped sometime in the 1990s

Does that mean I can finally remove all the CDI stuff from my XML VCDImager templates? What is it good for...

J/K

Nick

The CD-i stuff is only for the benefit of CD-i players. However, they are required for compliance (though it doesn't matter for most if not all non-CD-i players)...

I personally think that you should keep it as it hardly makes a difference in terms of size anyway: http://www.michaeltam.com/cdi_app.html

Regards.

[SingSing]

The point is very simple.

The CD has both types of content. Thus stop the delima of video vs computer vs hardcopy.

It makes a different if you want your digital camera pictures to be able to be view on TV, resize and E-mail to people, and printout at its best resolution on paper. As well as making a CD that he/she can send out in the mail, that can be play pretty much universally.

These are from the standpoints of people who use and own digital cemera frequently. Go to a party, graduation, wedding, or pinic, and you will find most people use digital camera, or use flim camera that ended up with digital print on the web or CD.

The number is very clear.

The people that own/use digital camera and thus produce jpeg pictures, is huge compare to people who rip/convert VOB to mpeg1/2. The software they have are those bundle with camera, like exif, adobe, image viewer. These applications lock in their users and make distribution and managing the pictures very difficult. Flim processors like Fuji and Kodak produce CDs that can hardly work with any of the DVD players out there. Nero with few simple steps will enable these users to overcome most of these problems. In a sense, Nero is as useful to digital camera owners as to S/VCD making.

Step out to the real world, and take a deep breath. It is okay.

[vitualis]

The point is very simple.

The CD has both types of content. Thus stop the delima of video vs computer vs hardcopy.

Yes it does. So what? It is still a VCD... Putting the source material onto a "photo" VCD is a good idea. It doesn't make it a different disc.

You are presenting this as if it is some sort of revelation that nobody knows about. WE KNOW ABOUT IT. It is obviously that we knew about this a long time before you did.

"dilemma of video vs computer vs hardcopy"

Realistically, there is no dilemma. Why? Because it is well known and has been for quite a long time that you can put the source images onto the VCD as well.

Nero with few simple steps will enable these users to overcome most of these problems. In a sense, Nero is as useful to digital camera owners as to S/VCD making.

YES WE KNOW. You are preaching to the converted. It is as if you've stepped into an English literature class and starting talking about how wonderful the alphabet is and then be bemused why no one is taking you seriously.

What you seem to not understand in this thread is that you have been extremely confusing. At the top you were mixing up PhotoCD, PictureCD and VCD and CD-i. I still don't know if you've actually got a clear handle on it yet. The reason I'm worried is because you seem to post stuff without checking your facts/definitions first thus confusing other beginners.

Also, you don't seem to understand why many more advanced users don't like Nero for this function. Yes, it is "easy", but Nero is also BUGGY when it comes to menus and mpeg stills (which is what you will be making). Nero made menus don't work in some players. Simply put, there are BETTER alternatives out there for "Photo" VCDs -- both commercial and free software.

Regards.