CCE SP2 Video Size Too Small

[tebugg]

hello. i've just recently started using CCE SP2 and i have noticed my video output size is always smaller than the average bitrate i have set. i am using mpeg2 for dvd setting in cce and multipass vbr of 3 passes. for a 1h 20min 44s movie i set the average bitrate to 7077. i am inputting the video to cce using an avisynth script of:

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\UnFilter.dll")
AVISource("E:\movie.avi", audio=false)
addborders(0,32,0,32)
spline36resize(720,480)
unfilter(15,15)
#deinterlace
#crop
#resize
#denoise

the resulting mpv output is smaller at around 3.6gb. i am encoding the audio to 6ch 448kbps ac3. this results in a much lower overall dvd size than i am trying achieve. the output mpv average bitrate ends up being in the 5800kbps range even though i didnt set it to that. does anyone have any suggestions on why cce is encoding with lower average bitrate even though i am telling it to use higher average bitrate? thank you for your help.

EDIT: when i chose multipass cbr of 3 passes the resulting mpv file is the bitrate that i set for it and the file size is the desired file size i was trying to make. but in multipass vbr it is as i described above.

[manono]

does anyone have any suggestions on why cce is encoding with lower average bitrate even though i am telling it to use higher average bitrate?

Mavbe because you've set your framerate incorrectly? What's the framerate of your AVI? 23.976fps? Did you set the framerate in CCE to 23.976fps? And then have it apply pulldown?

[tebugg]

does anyone have any suggestions on why cce is encoding with lower average bitrate even though i am telling it to use higher average bitrate?

Mavbe because you've set your framerate incorrectly? What's the framerate of your AVI? 23.976fps? Did you set the framerate in CCE to 23.976fps? And then have it apply pulldown?

hey manono long time no see. thanks for your reply. yes my source framerate is 23.976 and i set it to 23.976 in cce but i did not have rate convert check marked. cce automaticly put check marks into the pulldown area. it used 2:3 pulldown.

[manono]

yes my source framerate is 23.976 and i set it to 23.976 in cce but i did not have rate convert check marked. cce automaticly put check marks into the pulldown area. it used 2:3 pulldown.

I didn't understand all that because I don't know what 'rate convert' is in CCE. I do use a 2.70 SP2 version, but uncheck the 'for DVD' box and apply DGPulldown afterwards. Did checking that 'rate convert' box solve your problem, or so far no solution?

Is the length of the output M2V (or, after authoring, the DVD) the same length as the source AVI?

[tebugg]

yes my source framerate is 23.976 and i set it to 23.976 in cce but i did not have rate convert check marked. cce automaticly put check marks into the pulldown area. it used 2:3 pulldown.

I didn't understand all that because I don't know what 'rate convert' is in CCE. I do use a 2.70 SP2 version, but uncheck the 'for DVD' box and apply DGPulldown afterwards. Did checking that 'rate convert' box solve your problem, or so far no solution?

Is the length of the output M2V (or, after authoring, the DVD) the same length as the source AVI?

in cce sp2 there's an option to let cce change the framerate of the output file. you put a check mark in rate convert that is below the framerate selections and it does it. i tried to uncheck for dvd to relax the restrictions but it still results in a smaller file. i dont have an option to not apply pulldown in cce because for some reason the pulldown is greyed out and there are automaticly check marks in pulldown. also the inverse pulldown has a check mark in it that's greyed out. the resulting output is the same time frame as the source but that doesnt solve the problem of cce making the output file smaller than i want it to be when using multipass vbr.

EDIT: ok i got pulldown unchecked in cce. it's not applying any pulldown for output. have a question though, dont i want the encoder to apply pulldown? i know in hcenc it applies it for you (3:2 pulldown). or can i just not do any pulldown during encode and have dgpulldown apply the right pulldown after encode?

[El Heggunte]

Give a try to a higher-bitrate quantization matrix.
Setting the inter-matrix to "all 16" might be sufficient in this case...

[tebugg]

Give a try to a higher-bitrate quantization matrix.
Setting the inter-matrix to "all 16" might be sufficient in this case...

hhmm. i am using a different matrix not the standard mpeg one. but i use this same matrix in hcenc and it has no problem giving me my desired output size. it is sharktooth's v3uhr matrix. i like the results it gives. maybe cce doesnt like it?

EDIT: just encoded a south part episode that i have. this is multipass vbr 3 passes set to 6000 average bitrate. this is the output file info:

General
Complete name : I:\South.Park.S16E06.720p.BluRay.x264-DEMAND\south.park.s16e06.720p.bluray.x264-demand.mkv.mpv
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
File size : 940 MiB
Duration : 22mn 22s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 5 873 Kbps

Video
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@Main
Format settings, BVOP : Yes
Format settings, Matrix : Custom
Format settings, GOP : Variable
Duration : 22mn 22s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 5 873 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 9 000 Kbps
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Standard : NTSC
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Scan order : Top Field First
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.709
Time code of first frame : 01:00:00:00
Stream size : 940 MiB (100%)

that's only a 22min episode. if it was say an hour and half movie the bitrate would be even lower, resulting in a smaller file than what i'm looking to make to fill out a dvd. and this encode was without pulldown checked in cce.

[El Heggunte]

First of all, the target of Sharktooth's matrices is MPEG-4 ASP (i.e., Xvid, DivX, whatever), not MPEG-2.

My guess: CCE is doing its job well, and you worry too much

It's not impossible that CCE simply refuses to fill the stream with NULL padding-bytes, which is what other encoders possibly would do in similar circumstances (i.e., when the source video is easy to compress, and the actual average bitrate is lower than the target average bitrate).

[tebugg]

It's not impossible that CCE simply refuses to fill the stream with NULL padding-bytes, which is what other encoders possibly would do in similar circumstances (i.e., when the source video is easy to compress, and the actual average bitrate is lower than the target average bitrate).

that makes sense. i used to use cce a couple years ago and didnt have a problem with getting the desired file size, but now it's not working as it used to. so this is the reasoning behind my questions. thanks for replying.

[El Heggunte]

Still, you shouldn't give up before trying other matrices.
The FOX matrix should be the obvious first choice.

[manono]

I was pretty sure it was a framerate problem because of the similar ratios of 23.976/29.97 and 5800/7077. Since you satisfied those concerns my next suggestion was to be the same one that El Heggunte made - use a better quantization matrix. The ones included in CCE aren't the best, although it's easy enough to add new ones. I was then thinking you had maxed out the quality using whatever matrix you chose, and the only alternative to get a bigger file size was to use a better matrix in CCE. Or switch to HCEnc, which has some decent ones included (along with a lot of crap). This would also explain why you were making your filesize when doing CBR encoding, maybe something I should have thought of earlier.

Glad you got it sorted out.

[tebugg]

hey guys. have another question that's not on the same topic of this thread but i thought i'd ask it in this thread since i'm the OP and didnt want to start another thread. in cce, if i input an avisynth file that has pline64resize(720,480)", does this mean i am actually resizing the video twice? in cce options it has that spot for frame size. and in the frame size options you can edit it. i notice with the resize in avs script the encode for cce goes faster. if i take out that resize then the encode takes longer. which leads me to my question.

EDIT: i figured it out. i used trim in avs script to run a couple test clips and i was indeed resizing it twice from putting a resize in the avs script.

[manono]

Why do any resizing in CCE if you're feeding it a 720x480 script? Uncheck the all the 'frame size' boxes in CCE.

[tebugg]

Why do any resizing in CCE if you're feeding it a 720x480 script? Uncheck the all the 'frame size' boxes in CCE.

i dont see that option. i am using cce sp2

[manono]

i am using cce sp2

Me too.

[tebugg]

i am using cce sp2

Me too.

weird. i dont have that option. here is a screenshot of what my cce sp2 looks like. the left window is the window from clicking on area settings.

[manono]

Yeah, interesting. I guess at some point they changed the Encode Setting screen. My pic is from CCE.SP.v2.70.02.12.

I'm assuming V2 is the same as SP2. Maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, do everything in the script, resize, IVTC or deinterlacing if necessary, any other filtering, etc.

[aedipuss]

cce 2.70 is not the same as cce sp2. 2.70 was a newer version of 2.50 that included improvements to the handling of interlaced sources. sp2 came a couple years later and now there is sp3.

[manono]

Good, thanks for the correction and clarification, aedipuss. I apologize for misleading you, tebugg. I like and understand the one I have and have never felt the need to upgrade.

[tebugg]

thanks guys for the replies. yea i have SP2. i just found your version manono so i am going to give that a try. i also have sp3 but my version of sp3 does not handle HD sources very well. the encoder gives an out of memory error even though i have 16gb of system ram. my original question was does using an avs script with resize in it actually cause me to resize the video twice? since i'm resizing it in the avs script and cce sp2 seems to do a resize also since there isnt an option to make it not resize like your v2.70 has. if so then would i not use an avs resize and just let the encoder do it so i dont resize twice?

[aedipuss]

you really expect people here to help you with "found" software? if you can put up copies of your receipts for the $6000 worth of cce product i might be more inclined.

[manono]

my original question was does using an avs script with resize in it actually cause me to resize the video twice? since i'm resizing it in the avs script and cce sp2 seems to do a resize also since there isnt an option to make it not resize like your v2.70 has.

Your manual might have the answer. My guess is that if you open a video or script with the right resize already, then CCE won't resize again.

Unchecking the 'For DVD' box might also do something (grey it out?) because the video no longerhas to be DVD compliant

[tebugg]

you really expect people here to help you with "found" software? if you can put up copies of your receipts for the $6000 worth of cce product i might be more inclined.

i dont really care if you're inclined or not. i have nothing to prove to you.

[tebugg]

my original question was does using an avs script with resize in it actually cause me to resize the video twice? since i'm resizing it in the avs script and cce sp2 seems to do a resize also since there isnt an option to make it not resize like your v2.70 has.

Your manual might have the answer. My guess is that if you open a video or script with the right resize already, then CCE won't resize again.

Unchecking the 'For DVD' box might also do something (grey it out?) because the video no longerhas to be DVD compliant

thank manono for your help. it's been appreciated.