Firewire capturing

[mobitel]

Hi,

I'm setting a new surveillance system and I would like an opinion on what camcoder should I buy in order to have a very good DV input for my workstation together with a high still image resolution.

Thank you

[JohnnyMalaria]

Do you want to create stills from the DV video or do you want a camcorder that also has still picture capability at a higher resolution?

There are a number of camcorders that can use flash memory cards to take stills BUT you will have to transfer them from the flash memory. You cannot transfer them via Firewire.

[mobitel]

Images should go in real time, no flash memory. Camcorder should be able to give a high resolution stream. Not necessary produce itself the still images. What is the range of camcorders that give good resolution stream. Is there something that I have to care before buying?

Thanks

[SingSing]

Try wireless webcam.

[edDV]

Images should go in real time, no flash memory. Camcorder should be able to give a high resolution stream. Not necessary produce itself the still images. What is the range of camcorders that give good resolution stream. Is there something that I have to care before buying?

Thanks

DV is 720x576i (PAL)
Firewire IEEE-1394 is limited to 15 foot runs (up to 60 ft. with repeaters)

There are many security specific camera systems available. Best to check those out per your needs.

[mobitel]

Webcams have a very low resolution (much noise and compression-> crappy image)

Thanks

[edDV]

Webcams have a very low resolution (much noise and compression-> crappy image)

Thanks

Are you sure you want to use camcorders? Security cameras are available in various resolutions and can connect in various ways that support long cable runs or wireless transmission.

You can start with low end systems like these
http://www.surveillance-video.com/

There are far higher end solutions and consultants if your budget is serious.

[mobitel]

edDV, you are right, I've seen some machine vision cameras, BUT, the system should be inexpensive, that's why it has to go with Firewire. It used to work with USB (imagine the quality).

Thanks

[JohnnyMalaria]

Images should go in real time, no flash memory. Camcorder should be able to give a high resolution stream. Not necessary produce itself the still images. What is the range of camcorders that give good resolution stream. Is there something that I have to care before buying?

Thanks

Standard DV camcorders will stream video at 720 x 576 (since you are in the UK, hence PAL). The DV format does not support higher resolution still images.

Some DV camcorders have USB 2.0 interfaces that might let you transfer higher resolution still images but I'm not aware of any.

If you need higher resolution that 720 x 576 and it must be via Firewire, then you need to look at HDV camcorders that stream MPEG2-TS video. But then you need the software on the computer to decode it and grab still images etc.

A couple of questions:

Does it have to be DV?
What still image resolution are you look for?
What are the specifications of your workstation?

[mobitel]

A couple of questions:

Does it have to be DV?
What still image resolution are you look for?
What are the specifications of your workstation

A webcam used to do the work before. Now thinking of a DV. MV camera is very expensive.

I will be happy with 720 x 576 as webcam used to give 320 x 240

Worksation has a dual Xeon processor at 3.2G each, 1G memory, 160G hdd, ATI radeon X1300 256MB.

Thanks

[edDV]

edDV, you are right, I've seen some machine vision cameras, BUT, the system should be inexpensive, that's why it has to go with Firewire. It used to work with USB (imagine the quality).

Thanks

Firewire has severe cable length limitations. You can get close to 720x576 if you run baseband analog PAL over high quality coax and capture at the workstation. Cable runs can go to 50-100m and more with equalized amps.

I'd worry about the camcorder being stolen. Better to get a purpose built security camera.
http://www.surveillance-video.com/varecodoca.html

[mobitel]

Firewire has severe cable length limitations. You can get close to 720x576 if you run baseband analog PAL over high quality coax and capture at the workstation. Cable runs can go to 50-100m and more with equalized amps.

I'd worry about the camcorder being stolen. Better to get a purpose built security camera

Camcorder will point outside the window, with the workstation just 2 meters away.

Can you please now give me some model numbers?

[JohnnyMalaria]

[quote="mobitel"]

Camcorder will point outside the window, with the workstation just 2 meters away.

Can you please now give me some model numbers?

Depends on other things.

How important is low-level light capability? Is that more important than, say, colour accuracy?

What's your budget?

Do you just want it to "point and shoot" or do you need to have manual control over things like exposure, white balance etc?

Is wide angle more important than zoom?

[mobitel]

How important is low-level light capability? Is that more important than, say, colour accuracy?

What's your budget?

Do you just want it to "point and shoot" or do you need to have manual control over things like exposure, white balance etc?

Is wide angle more important than zoom?

I have 2 300Watt lights where the camera points at, so light contitions will not affect the images.

Point and shoot, this is it, software will do the rest for me (not much though)

Wide angle is more important yes.

Thanks

[edDV]

This type of camera can be securely mounted, has high sensitivity and costs less than a camcorder.
http://www.surveillance-video.com/colbulcam.html

Something like this would connect up to 4 coax security cameras over USB and comes with software.
http://surveillance-video.stores.yahoo.net/newcrowusbse.html

[Richard_G]

Or you could just look out for the cheapest MiniDV camcorder you can find (although I suggest you avoid Samsung as the picture quality is diabolical).

[mobitel]

This type of camera can be securely mounted, has high sensitivity and costs less than a camcorder.
http://www.surveillance-video.com/colbulcam.html

Something like this would connect up to 4 coax security cameras over USB and comes with software.
http://surveillance-video.stores.yahoo.net/newcrowusbse.html

Just the USB device costs $398.00
I need a digital camcorder, with an analog I will have to get a capture card and so on...

[Richard_G]

Or you could just look out for the cheapest MiniDV camcorder you can find (although I suggest you avoid Samsung as the picture quality is diabolical).

However, bear in mind that most camcorders will not stay on standby for more than about 10 minutes before they switch off. Most Sonys can be made to stay on if the tape compartment is left open but I don't know about others. Otherwise, you would need them to be recording all the time.

[edDV]

This type of camera can be securely mounted, has high sensitivity and costs less than a camcorder.
http://www.surveillance-video.com/colbulcam.html

Something like this would connect up to 4 coax security cameras over USB and comes with software.
http://surveillance-video.stores.yahoo.net/newcrowusbse.html

Just the USB device costs $398.00
I need a digital camcorder, with an analog I will have to get a capture card and so on...

You can get a capture card for $30 or a hardware encoding model for under $100.

[mobitel]

You can get a capture card for $30 or a hardware encoding model for under $100.

In US, in UK....

[edDV]

You can get a capture card for $30 or a hardware encoding model for under $100.

In US, in UK....

If you are planning to record this, DV will consume 320GB /day. Software encoding will swamp your CPU.

[Richard_G]

You can get a capture card for $30 or a hardware encoding model for under $100.

In US, in UK.... :(

Even cheaper......

http://svp.co.uk/products-solo.php?pid=1201

[JohnnyMalaria]

Most Sonys can be made to stay on if the tape compartment is left open but I don't know about others. Otherwise, you would need them to be recording all the time.

Or don't put a tape in...

[mobitel]

My initial question was to have a list of camcoders that can give a video stream input to a pc. So far I have red all those "expert" opinions which I found pointless. The discussion will be pointless too if I get not a single camcorder model. I'm not asking your opinion about surveillance, or what is the best for setting up one cctv.

Thanks

[Richard_G]

My initial question was to have a list of camcoders that can give a video stream input to a pc. So far I have red all those "expert" opinions which I found pointless. The discussion will be pointless too if I get not a single camcorder model. I'm not asking your opinion about surveillance, or what is the best for setting up one cctv.

Thanks

Or you could just look out for the cheapest MiniDV camcorder you can find (although I suggest you avoid Samsung as the picture quality is diabolical).

I thought I had. For the purposes you want, any MiniDV camcorder will do the job. It's just that, while the quality will be good, implementing it into the use you want won't be easy. There are far simpler ways of getting the quality you want without the complications.

[SingSing]

miniDV type of 60fps of video is not suitable for surveillance.

Surveillance has to be robust in an unmanned, non-stopped, stoarge effective and cost effective. It also should be visable to deter crime.

miniDV camcorder with firewire is none of the above ! The idea is really lame !

[Richard_G]

miniDV type of 60fps of video is not suitable for surveillance.

Surveillance has to be robust in an unmanned, non-stopped, stoarge effective and cost effective. It also should be visable to deter crime.

miniDV camcorder with firewire is none of the above ! The idea is really lame !

What a load of rubbish! To start with, MiniDV is 25fps (as the OP is in a PAL country) which is 50 fields per second and is perfect for surveillance. If footage is to usefull it needs to be the best quality that can be achieved, MiniDV is about the best you are going to get without going to HD.

You are also confusing surveillance with crime prevention. In my day job, we use concealed MiniDV spec cameras with motion detection software. The camera definitely does not want to be visible or we would never collect any evidence of crime! We don't want to prevent it, we want it to happen but be caught on camera, in the best possible quality, so the guilty can be identified and subsequently prosecuted. Unlike some of the appalling quality footage you see on the police video shows on TV.....

You may consider the idea lame, but that wasn't what was being asked. MiniDV camcorder over Firewire will do the job very nicely. There are alternatives, but as everyone on here will tell you, as soon as any compression is applied to video, the quality will only suffer.

[ZAPPER]

Sony trv 330, hows that for a number?


I got no beef with you wanting to use a camcorder for your application with fire wire, it just seems pricey. Might I reccomend checking out pawn shops or repair shops for models that may be broken in like say the tape recording area? Tell the tech or salesman what you intend to do with the cam and see how cheap you could get one.

I have a web cam that has a watchdog setting or motion detector setting that starts the recording when there is a change in the scene (unfortunatly it is a peice of crap, Creative Web cam go, from about 10 years ago) I would assume that there is simular software out there for you application.

Happy hunting!

[ZAPPER]

@ Richard_G

Just curious? Why do you not want to deter crime?

[edDV]

The problem is the original poster didn't sufficiently spec his problem and seems locked into a solution. If the goal was motion detection to sound an alarm and start recording then that should have been specified. If the goal was a legally admissible still that should have been specified. That requires a file integrity history.

If 24hr recording was a requirement that should have been specified. Compression for security purposes usually means dropping frame rate but maintaining native resolution. Software and vcrs are available to record full frames at any rate.

Glad the OP put us on to this topic. The cameras are far better and less expensive than last I looked a year ago. I Like the infrared LED nightshot models with integral or separate IR lights. How cool is that?

Also the camera integrators and software seem much cheaper than before. I might just buy a system.