Converting SVCD PAL 25fps to NTSC 23.976 fps

[Machine514]

UPDATE: This is only for converting SVCD files! I am currently working on getting a regular VCD conversion guide written.

Converting SVCD PAL 25fps to SVCD NTSC 23.976fps

This tutorial is for converting SVCD PAL video and audio at 25 frames per second to SVCD NTSC video and audio at 23.976 frames per second. This may work for DVD PAL to DVD NTSC, but I have not tried it yet. Software that you will need to do the conversion.

ISOBuster (http://www.smart-projects.net/isobuster/)
TMPGEnc Plus (or regular with MPG2 plug-in. I use Plus.)(http://www.tmpgenc.com/)
DVD2AVI ()
BeSweet

See tools section at www.DVDRhelp.com for more links.

1. OPTIONAL. If your PAL files are in bin and cue format, then extract with ISOBuster.

Load the BIN file up in ISOBuster.
Locate the MPG file(s) and “Extract but FILTER only M2F2 Mpeg frames”
Time: <10minutes


2. De-mux your audio and video file with TMPGEnc.

Go to file then MPG Tools.


Then click on Simple De-multiplex (1) then browse for your file (2). I usually rename my video and audio streams to indicate that they are the PAL video and PAL audio. I suggest you do the same to keep track (4) (5). Then run (6).
Time: < 4minutes.


3. Convert audio file from PAL 25fps to NTSC 23.976fps.

Open BeSweet to complete this step. I use BeSweet with the GUI.

Check the Presets and select PAL -> NTSC (25.000 to 23.976). Select MP2. Then click MP2 to MP2 to start conversion.
Time: < 15 minutes.


4. DVD2AVI frameserving?

I am not sure what frameserving is, but I see it all the time in the forums. I converted close to 10 different files without this step. It simply does not work. Video is cut off during the conversion process if this is not done (see step 5).

Open DVD2AVI. Click file, then open and locate your MPG PAL video file.


When file list pops up, make sure it is the correct file then click OK. You DVD2AVI program window will change size. Click on file then save project and choose a filename.


What happens here is pretty quick. DVD2AVI analyzes the file and the slider at the bottom moves to the right. At the same time a window appears at the right that tell you about the video file. When completed it will say FINISHED. You should now have a real small file with a .d2v extension. Save this file for later.


5. Convert PAL Video (25fps) to NTSC Video (23.976fps).

This is the most time consuming step. I usually set up a few overnight.

Open TMPGEnc.

I use the WIZARD, select NTSC Film, then click next.


Click on browse under video file and locate the d2v file from step 4.


When you click OK you get a screen that looks like this, judging the field order.


I keep all the defaults and click next.


Click on Other Settings.


Under the Video tab make sure the Encode mode is 3:2 pulldown playback.


Under the advanced tab make sure Do not frame rate conversion is selected. Click OK then next to move to step 4 of the wizard.


I use the auto setting under step 4 of the wizard. Under step 5, I change the filename to signify that the file that is created is an NTSC file.

Time: For me, a little more than real time.

6. Simple Multiplex the video and audio.

Click on file then MPEG Tools.


Click on the Simple Multiplax tab, then browse for your NTSC video and audio files. Type is determined automatically. Click run and you are all done.
Time: < 4 minutes.


You now have an NTSC file ready for whatever you want!

Hit me up with questions!

[dg_phillips]

Machine:

Well, I must hand it to you...this is perhaps the most professional-looking, polished instructions I've seen thus far. I will print this off tomorrow morning and follow your guide to the letter. Will let you know how this turns out. I have confidence in all of it but the DVD2AVI which I have NOT been able to get working like you describe. I notice in your example that your input to DVD2AVI is one of the DVD folders AVSEQ001 or whatever its called. Have you ever tried to open a file like "movie.mpg" with DVD2AVI? If you have, then either I have a bad DVD2AVI or I am missing some vital piece of the program because it won't open that same "movie.mpg" for me. At any rate, thank you for this EXCELLENT guide in converting PAL to NTSC. You did a remarkable job in putting this together and deserve much praise from all.

Dan Phillips

[Machine514]

Yes I have tried MPG's. But follow my instructions. If you follow them you will have an m1v or m2v file to put into DVD2AVI.

Try it!

Thanks for the feedback!

-Machine

[jbenj01]

Very nice.. but question...

since this is a SVCD conversion, everything s/b set to MPEG2 settings, i.e., during demux/remux processes, yes??

[Machine514]

For SVCD...the software knows all of that...do not touch those settings.

-Machine

[Baldrick]

Good guide...lots of users ask for this every day.

Added it to our guides list
https://www.videohelp.com/guides.php?howtoselect=4;41

[dg_phillips]

Machine:

Well, I just finished my conversion and firsthand views look VERY GOOD...however, just as I suspected, the DVD2AVI portion does not work for me at all. Therefore, I just pulled PAL.m1v video into TMPGEnc and flew with that. Seems to have worked well. I, however, will wait until I view the whole nine yards tonight at home on my dvd player to be sure that I'm not missing the last few minutes of anything like you warned.
Again...this looks great...wish I knew why my DVD2AVI does not work...

Dan Phillips

[Machine514]

See if you can redownload it and try it again!

http://arbor.ee.ntu.edu.tw/%7Ejackei/dvd2avi/

-Machine

[dg_phillips]

Just redownloaded the same version I have been using...erased the previous one and unzipped and ran the new DVD2AVI.exe...

I opened the Original PAL mpeg file (not the .m1v) with DVD2AVI. It just sits there for about 10 seconds and then the blue bar at the bottom goes across the screen (left to right) and only after this happens does the video tab item at the top become available (not dimmed). I then go to File -> Save Project [F4], select a filename and save. The Information window on the right of the main DVD2AVI screen opens up and after about 10 seconds ONLY the word "FINISH" appears next to Details. I go look at the resulting .d2v file and it contains only this:

9

FINISHED -1.#J% FILM

I tried to specify that file (.d2v) to TMPGEnc and it is simply not acceptable. "BAD FORMAT or UNSUPPORTED".

I have four files in my DVD2AVI directory:

DVD2AVI.exe
DVD2AVI.ini
DVD2AVI.txt
DVD2AVI.vfp

Really strange this...

Dan Phillips

[dg_phillips]

Well, to add insult to injury...I can't even view the SVCD I created today on my DVD player. I followed your instructions to the letter with the exception of the framerate conversion; and the CD is totally trash...not viewable in the least. Hell, maybe I need to take up needlepoint...

Dan Phillips

[adam]

just as I suspected, the DVD2AVI portion does not work for me at all. Therefore, I just pulled PAL.m1v video into TMPGEnc and flew with that.

M1v is the file extention for mpeg1 video. DVD2avi is an mpeg2 frameserver. That's why it doesn't work. For mpeg1 you are probably safe just loading the video directly into TMPGenc, like you did, though the most stable way to load mpeg1 video into TMPGenc would be through something like Avisynth or VirtualDub, so as to avoid the horribly unstable direct show file reader.

As for others having problems loading mpeg2 files into DVD2avi, the mpg on a SVCD has a riff file header. You have to remove this file header in order to process the mpg in alot of software. You can use VCDEasy or the latest version of VcdGear to do this.

[dg_phillips]

Adam:

Well, then I guess that settles that issue. I also determined that the priority of the "DirectShow Multimedia File Reader" under the VFAPI plugin was not as high as the "MPEG-2 VIDEO Plug-in" which I'm sure added more problems to my processing an MPEG-1.

Also, is there any benefit to creating an SVCD from an MPEG1 source?
Forgive my ignorance...I am a newbie in the newbie section. I have learned much from this forum and probably have much more to learn.
I just tried a package last night called AVIcodec which gave me the first indication that this was an MPEG-1 file. Originally when I loaded it into TMPGEnc, it was displayed as an MPEG-2 PAL file which led me astray.

Also, I ran into a bit of a conflict with MACHINE's new guide yesterday and guessed at what I should do. Maybe you can shed some light on this as well...

On the very last item in MACHINE's new guide..."Multiplexing the NTSC Video with the NTSC Audio" (my name for it...not his) where he selects "Simple Multiplex"...the first pulldown on that page is Type:...I'm a bit confused why there is an MPEG-1 System (Automatic) and no MPEG-2 System (Automatic). I only raise this question because like you (Adam) suggest, I do use VCDEasy to burn my CDs and VCDEasy did NOT like the fact that I chose MPEG-1 here. So I did this again and selected MPEG-2 Super VideoCD (VBR) which I don't think was right and probably helped in screwing up what I burned to my CD...at any rate, my DVD player at home was not in the least amused...showed me a whole lot of garbage. I think I've seen you quote here in this forum..."garbage in...garbage out"

Well, as soon as you guide me on my above two "gray areas", I will proceed yet once again on creating a decent CD to watch at home...

Dan Phillips

[nogod]

May be a easier way to do it:

-Open mpeg2 (extracted from SVCD) file with DVD2AVI.
-Create a dvd2avi proyect.
-Create a .avs file with that proyect (you can use moviestacker to do it) with

AssumeFPS(23.976, true)

-Encode with your favourite program (CCE, TmpgEnc, Mainconcept...) the avs file. (Using a bitrate calculator, templates if you want, etc...)
-Wait only a few hours
-And now, you have a 480x480 file with 23.976 FPS.

Greetings

[nogod]

Sorry, I forget that

The resize to 480x480 is necessary too, in the .avs

GripCrop(480, 480, overscan=2, source_anamorphic=false)
GripSize(resizer="LanczosResize")

-I use grip crop-

greetings

[pijetro]

Here's a question in theory.

If my original footage is pure interlaced at 25fps, is it acceptable then, to have a film source (23.976fps) that contains pure interlace. If so, do you still run pulldown??

Yesterday, for the first time I tried a similair script.

avisource("f:\Europe.avi")
trim(0,138763)
assumefps(23.976,true)
bicubicresize(352,480)
crop(8,8,-8,-8)
addborders(8,8,8,8)
#_2dcleanyuy2(1,4,2,3)
resampleaudio(48000)

The problem is that combing effect comes in to play at fast movements. This is pure interlaced footage mind you.

If I've veered off course on the post, feel free to move it.........

Thanxx

[LisaB]

I can't believe Baldrick gave this guide a thumbs up...and then Adam came along and is apparently okay with it, too! Perhaps I am missing something here, but you should *never* have to re-encode to convert from PAL mpeg to NTSC mpeg. Re-encoding not only takes a long time, but also will result in a loss of quality.

To convert from PAL mpeg to NTSC mpeg, you simply use a program like DoPulldown to change the framerate to 23.976. This doesn't re-encode or change the number of frames of your source, it just changes the header so players will play it back at 23.976. Doing this, of course, changes the "length" of clip, so you will have to time-stretch the audio. Now, you can time stretch the audio using GoldWave, but if BeSweet GUI does what I think it does, then using the PAL to NTSC preset in BeSweet is an even better and faster option, since BeSweet can use mp2 as both input and output. Anyway, after you're done with this, just multiplex the output of BeSweet/Goldwave with the output of DoPulldown using the MPEG Tools in TMPGEnc...you should now have an in-sync mpeg with framerate 23.976. Actually, if you use Goldwave, then the output is WAV and you have to first convert to MP2 using TMPGEnc, but this doesn't take nearly as long as re-encoding video.

Finally, run your MPEG through DoPulldown again, this time changing framerate to 29.97 (this just inserts the 3:2 puldown tags, so your film source will be telecined to 29.97 on-the-fly....it is the same as your 3:2 pulldown on playback option in TMPGEnc) Again, this process doesn't re-encode anything, so it is quite quick. Voila! You now have NTSC *without* re-encoding. This process is simpler and faster than what was specified in this guide, and leads to no reduction in video quality.

On second thought, you could probably just use DoPulldown once, specifying a 29.97 framerate the first time around....but I'm just not sure how DoPulldown acts when your input is a 25 fps source...will it insert 3:2 pulldown tags or not? I wish there was someplace that explained all the options of DoPulldown in detail, but it doesn't even have a user guide as far as I know.

[Machine514]

LisaB...

1. Have you actually done this framerate conversion with DoPulldown?

2. Where were you when there were hundreds of posts going around about how to do framerate conversions?

-Machine

[adam]

Yes you've missed something LisaB, its called resolution.

If you want to convert PAL to NTSC than you have to re-encode...period.

Also, just patching the stream is not going to work on a lot (all?) of standalone players. You are forcing the dvd player to do conversions which it might not support, ie: telling it to slow it down and then telecine as opposed to just telecine.

Have you actually tried this LisaB?

[LisaB]

Thanks for pointing that out, Adam. You're right, my bad! I forgot all about the resolution thing. The real purpose of TMPGEnc encoding here is to re-encode the vertical resolution from 576 to 480. In this case, the guide is really about the easiest way of doing things. (TMPGEnc is also changing the fps tags to 29.97 and applying 3:2 pulldown tags, but these are both things that can be done with DoPulldown)

I'm not sure what point you are making about patching, though. "patching the fps" is essentially what TMPGEnc is doing when you choose the option "do not framerate conversion". And applying the 3:2 pulldown tags is what TMPGEnc does when you choose "3:2 pulldown" encode mode. I was just suggesting to do these two things with DoPulldown. But since you have to use TMPGEnc to re-encode anyway, then you may as well just follow the guide to the letter.

[adam]

I'm not sure what point you are making about patching, though. "patching the fps" is essentially what TMPGEnc is doing when you choose the option "do not framerate conversion".

Not at all. When you repatch a flag in the stream using pulldown.exe, nothing about the stream itself is changed. The flag simply instructs the decoder to play it back a certain way. So in your example, the fps remains 25 but the dvd player is instructed to slow it down to 23.976fps during playback, and then it is further instructed to telecine it to 29.97fps. I don't know if ANY dvd players can do this.

When you re-encode something in a different framerate you are physically changing the stream. The stream now becomes 23.976fps and the 3:2 pulldown flags instruct the player to telecine it to 29.97fps as it plays. This is how NTSCfilm DVDs are supposed to be encoded.

Like I said, simply repatching the stream will result in a DVD which probably will not play correclty on ANY hardware dvd player.

[LisaB]

Adam, this is all very confusing. When I think of an MPEG, I think of it as being a series of encoded frames (or fields). There is nothing about an individual frame that tells the player how fast it should be played back. It is the framerate flags that tell the player at what rate to play the frames. I mean, if there were something intrinsic to a frame (i.e., encoded into the frame) that specified the framerate, then there wouldn't be any reason to have flags in the first place! Can you explain to me what the difference is between a frame in a 15 fps video and one in a 25 fps video (assuming, for the sake of argument, that they are both 320x240 resolution)? Why would the framerate be encoded along with the rest of the video data?...it would not make sense to design a video standard like that. The point is, you should be able to change framerate without re-encoding....obviously, the same can't be said for resolution. Of course if you change the framerate without re-encoding then you have changed the bitrate....

[adam]

Look, flags which you set in the stream do NOT dictate what the file is in any way, they only instruct the DVD decoder to perform known functions.

Mpeg is not just a series of frames. When you encode to mpeg the frames are grouped into sections (GOPs) and redundant information from most of the frames in the GOP are stored in a single frame (I-Frame.) The I-Frame is the only frame which can be displayed by itself. For the rest of the frames, they must be decoded using information from both that frame and the I-Frame. The DVD player is not just displaying frames one after the other, it is decoding it, and the frames have been encoded with certain properties, framerate being one of them. Once the video is encoded that's it, it is what it is. You cannot change something like resolution or framerate without re-encoding but if you set the fps flag to another fps than the dvd player may be able to DECODE it in a different framerate.

It is possible for DVD players to play an encoded framerate at a different speed. Often PAL DVDs are encoded at 24fs and contain a flag which instructs the DVD player to play it 4% faster so that it is now 25fps. The difference is that this is a known function. Its supported in the DVD standard and the DVD player manufacturers specifically implemented support for this function because they were requred to.

The DVD standard does not support 29.97fps (25fps internal) which is what you are making by manipulating the flags in this manner. There is no supported function for slowing down the video from 25 to 23.976 and then performing a telecine to 29.97. The reason is that there is no practical reason to do so because the resolution would still need to be changed anyway.

[WeBMaSTeR]

This is an excellent guide, but as someone that converts from PAL to NTSC all the time (my damn TV won't play PAL), you fail to mention some of the pitfalls or problems.

The first problem, as many of you know, is that TMGEnc is very unpredictable in de-multiplexing files it did not create. And, since in my experience, over 50% of mpegs (cue/bins) have errors in them, you can expect some problems.

Here is my general method (not the best, but workable):
1. Extract Mpeg from cue/bin with VCDGear
2. Recode video with TMGEnc to 29.970 (NTSC)
3. When recode finished, de-multiplex file.
4. Extract PAL audio with Goldenwave from original PAL mpeg, convert to mp2 with TMGEnc, and convert to 29.970 (NTSC) with BeSweet (Note that demultiplexing the original PAL-MPEG with TMGEnc will very often not give you a complete mp2 due to inherent audio errors)
5. Multiplex NTSC Video and NTSC audio with TMGEnc.

About 75% of the time this works great - no problems. BUT, in the other 25% of the time - grrrr head-aches! The problem? An audio/video repair conducted during one of the steps which throws audio out of sync!!

Example - the ctp-t3 release. CD2 worked great, no problems, but CD1 had a problem (VCDGear performed a single fix and demultiplexing the file with TMGEnc produced a 19mb audio file rather than 72mb). End result? Having to manualy cut 0.0135 seconds from audio with Goldenwave to get back into sync and all of you should know the pain that can be!!!

[adam]

WeBMaSTeR read some of the forum posts on this subject. In my opinion, you would be much better off just following this guide.

You should not convert 25fps to 29.97fps. This is not how PAL->NTSC transfers are done. You have to slow the film down to 23.976fps first, there is just no skipping this step. So since you have to go to 23.976fps anyway, there is no reason to do the further conversion to 29.97fps because this will be done through the dvd player anyway, and doing a hard telecine to 29.97fps through encoding degrades quality substantially.

When it comes to digital formats you should almost never convert to 29.97fps if you can go to 23.976fps instead. Its silly. It is much lower quality and causes many more encoding/authoring/playing problems.

[koic]

Hi all, I think, lots of people will thank you all for this discussion
and knowledge you shed on us
And I have a question, not exactly for the title, but rather for the nature of issues
under discussion.
I have movie which is AVI with 640x480, 28,7720 fps (!)
What do I do to make it playable on DVD?
Do I have to (and how) convert it to PAL or NTSC?
Thanks in advanced.

[Machine514]

I have done enough SVCD PAL to SVCD NTSC conversions. All of them worked no problem and play perfectly in my DVD player.

I can only suggest to try the method stated above.

-Machine

[napski]

Excellent guide!

Question: What if I have a PAL SVCD with a 20.000 fps? How should I go about converting that? What settings should I use?

I have quite a few SVCD's that are PAL that I need to convert over to NTSC. I used ISOBuster as suggested on the AVESQ01.MPG file that is on the CD, but when I use the preview and statistics in DVD2AVI on the file, it says its framerate is 20.000 fps, PAL and interlaced.

How should I convert these?

[adam]

napski, you must have forced film activated. This does not work with PAL encoded video, and if set it will give you ~19-20fps output. Just turn it off on the video tab and follow the guide as normal.

If I may make one important addition to this guide. In DVD2avi you need to set it to RGB output and then set it to pc scale otherwise you will overcompress your luminance values and the picture will be much darker than its supposed to be.

[psil0]

thx for the excellent guide. I have one problem. I am stuck at the last step. When I try to multiplex the audio/video files back together I get an error in tmpgenc, everytime i load the mp2 file. Says illegal mpeg stream. I have tried to rip out the wav from the orignal mpeg and convert to mp2. I have also tried many different setting when going from PAL 2 NTSC mp2. Aslong with following the instructions specifically. I remeber seeing a post a long time ago about beesweet not working for framerate conversions, but I can seem to find it now. help ?

[LisaB]

WeBMaSTeR,

Why are you letting your TV make you do all these conversions? As far as I know, it is the job of the DVD player to output a signal that is consistent with your TV. It should be an option in your DVD player setup....you just tell it what kind of TV you have (PAL, NTSC, or multi-format) and it will output the correct signal. My TV, like yours, is NTSC only....so I set my DVD player to only output NTSC. I've never had a problem playing PAL VCD's, SVCD's, etc. in my DVD player, because it converts on the fly.

Don't all DVD players do this? And if yours doesn't, you're probably better off getting one that does...like a $50 Apex. Your time is worth something, after all.

I suppose there are some valid reasons for wanting to convert between PAL and NTSC, but I've never figured one out.

I just wish VCR's were as cool as DVD players...I have a PAL VHS that would like to be able to view.....