PAL & NTSC DVD'S

[offline]

There is no PAL on a PAL DVD and there is no NTSC on a NTSC DVD. There is only YCbCr and audio.

To say there is only YCbCr and audio on a DVD is misleading. DVD's are mastered for either NTSC or PAL, and the output has to conform to one of these signal formats; giving NTSC a lower resolution and poorer color compared to PAL, on the vast majority of televisions.

[edDV]

There is no PAL on a PAL DVD and there is no NTSC on a NTSC DVD. There is only YCbCr and audio.

To say there is only YCbCr and audio on a DVD is misleading. DVD's are mastered for either NTSC or PAL, and the output has to conform to one of these signal formats

Not really. NTSC and PAL are analog chrominance modulation techniques* that are not present on a DVD disc, they are created in the player analog output stages (for composite or S-Video). DVD MPeg2 is made up of digital YCbCr components arranged as 4:2:0. True, the encoded video conforms to the monochrome Rec-601 frame size and framerates used in different regions.

50Hz regions -- 25fps 720x576
60Hz regions -- 30 or 29.97fps or 23.976 720x480

NTSC or PAL are created in the output stage the DVD player and applied to composite and S-Video outputs only. YPbPr outputs are analog YUV component and lack either NTSC or PAL modulation. HDMI carries YCbCr.

This topic came up in the context of a PAL-M (Brazil) discussion in which a 720x480, 29.97 or 23.976 progressive DVD disc was shown to be identical for NTSC or PAL-M. NTSC or PAL are created in the DVD player and had nothing to do with what was on the DVD. Therefore a "NTSC" DVD plays fine in PAL-M from a PAL-M DVD player.

https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=286530

*NTSC is an analog chrominance quadrature modulation around a 3.58MHz subcarrier and PAL is modulated around a 4.43MHz subcarrier.

giving NTSC a lower resolution and poorer color compared to PAL, on the vast majority of televisions.

"Rec-601" 60Hz video has 20% fewer vertical scan lines than 50Hz video but 20% higher frame rate. The overall bandwidth is identical. Chroma components CbCr have identical sample rates (bandwidth) on the DVD.

I think you are confusing DVD with NTSC and PAL analog transmission standards. If you were to compare NTSC vs PAL color modulation only, PAL has one major difference. PAL means "Phase Alternate Line". The chroma phase is reversed every other line to average out any apparent hue drift caused by the analog transmission system. Hue drift was a problem in the early NTSC system but is less of a problem today. Otherwise NTSC and PAL are essentially the same thing.

The main analog transmission quality differences between "NTSC" and "PAL" has nothing to do with NTSC/PAL color standards, it is all about RF channel bandwidth differences. The US FCC chose 6MHz channel bandwidths in order to maximize the number of local TV channels in a given city. US broadcasting is based on separate local channels in every metropolitan area.

Europe and other areas that added color later chose a different top down broadcasting model where local channel choice was more regional than city based. Their choice was to allocate fewer channels with 7MHz or more channel bandwidth.

Wider channel bandwidth produces potential for higher luminance detail and that is the difference. A smaller advantage came from moving the color subcarrier up frequency from 3.58MHz (NTSC) to 4.43 MHz (most PAL systems). This didn't add higher color bandwidth, but did reduce effects of chroma-luminance crosstalk in color TV sets.

As we move to digital broadcasting, these differences between "NTSC" and "PAL" disappear when the analog transmitters are turned off. SD DTV and DVD will continue to have frame size and frame rate differences but that is all.

Worldwide HDTV standards are converging on square pixel 1280x720p, 1920x1080i and 1920x1080p/24. 720p and 1080i will continue to have different regional frame rates. 1920x1080p/24 and/or 1920x1080p/48 have the potential for being a single playable worldwide production standard.

[lumis]

fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!

[lordsmurf]

This is interesting. Can we have it moved back to the GENERAL/NEWBIE forum since it's all about video (and therefore on-topic).

[offline]

True, the encoded video conforms to the monochrome Rec-601 frame size and framerates used in different regions.

Which is exactly my point. If mpeg-2 streams were truely non PAL or NTSC, the mastered product would be the same in all regions. It is not. The mpeg-2 standards for DVD specify either a PAL or an NTSC format, both for interlaced and progressive streams. The difference is embedded in the stream itself, not just converted for analog output. Only when frame size and rate become the same, across the board, can you then say PAL and NTSC are ghosts of the past. DVD has inherited these differences from the old transmission standards. It is misleading, imo, to say that they don't exist on DVD.

As we move to digital broadcasting, these differences between "NTSC" and "PAL" disappear

True, but we are talking about DVD, not DBT.

The main analog transmission quality differences between "NTSC" and "PAL" has nothing to do with NTSC/PAL color standards, it is all about RF channel bandwidth differences.

Now I thought bandwith was part of the standard differences between PAL and NTSC analog? RF from a PAL DVD in a DVD player is still superior to NTSC in terms of color reproduction. It is how the bandwidth is used, not the bandwidth itself. Do you disagree?

[edDV]

True, the encoded video conforms to the monochrome Rec-601 frame size and framerates used in different regions.

Which is exactly my point. If mpeg-2 streams were truely non PAL or NTSC, the mastered product would be the same in all regions. It is not. The mpeg-2 standards for DVD specify either a PAL or an NTSC format, both for interlaced and progressive streams. The difference is embedded in the stream itself, not just converted for analog output.

Which was the point of my signature comment. The only difference is frame rate and frame size. The Rec BT.601-5 (formerly CCIR-601) defines component digital video as 625/50Hz and 525/60Hz. PAL and NTSC exist only in analog and composite digital formats (i.e. D2, D3). The MPeg2 standards also define "625/50Hz and 525/60Hz" YCbCr as the formats. The parenthesis "(NTSC)" and "(PAL)" popped up in the MPeg2 and DVD FAQs causing the corruption of terminology.

In the digital studio environment the concepts of component and composite video are clearly separate.

Only when frame size and rate become the same, across the board, can you then say PAL and NTSC are ghosts of the past. DVD has inherited these differences from the old transmission standards. It is misleading, imo, to say that they don't exist on DVD.

Again I acknowledge frame rate and frame size differences. It is the application of the terms "NTSC" and "PAL" that I find incorrect.

The potential for a unified standard exists for 1920x1080p/24 at least for film based sources. 1920x1080p/24 is currently unified in ATSC and HD/BD DVD. There is discussion of 1920x1080p/48 or 72 as a unified live action video format.

As we move to digital broadcasting, these differences between "NTSC" and "PAL" disappear

True, but we are talking about DVD, not DBT.

We are back to terminology here but DVD, HD/BD DVD and ATSC are all 100% YCbCr component.

The main analog transmission quality differences between "NTSC" and "PAL" has nothing to do with NTSC/PAL color standards, it is all about RF channel bandwidth differences.

Now I thought bandwith was part of the standard differences between PAL and NTSC analog?

PAL is a color encoding method. Bandwidth, subcarrier frequency, frame size, frame rate and audio formats are specified by the local broadcasting authority. This explains all the variations of PAL broadcasting around the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAL

The extreme case is PAL-M in Brazil which uses the same parameters of "NTSC" for frame rates, frame size, subcarrier frequency and audio. The only difference is use of PAL color modulation. A DVD disc for use with PAL-M and NTSC is identical for both. The only difference is the chroma modulator in the DVD player. The analog component, progressive and HDMI outputs would be identical for USA and Brazil DVD player models.

RF from a PAL DVD in a DVD player is still superior to NTSC in terms of color reproduction. It is how the bandwidth is used, not the bandwidth itself. Do you disagree?

By RF are you extending this to include composite and S-Video outputs? Lets explore this. I can think of two differences

0. No difference - color accuracy, color bandwidth

1. Phase Alternate Line - I would argue this has no advantage for DVD player output. In fact, I would rather have a TV hue control for correcting poorly mastered DVDs.

Winner IMO - NTSC

2a. Subcarrier Frequency - For RF and composite outputs, PAL subcarrier @4.43 MHz has less potential for luminance -chrominance crosstalk. NTSC TV sets need a high quality comb filter.

Winner IMO - PAL

2b. Subcarrier Frequency - For S-Video output, PAL subcarrier @4.43MHz has no advantage.

Winner IMO - Draw