ATI AIW 9800 vs Leadtek TV 2000 XP Expert

[thecoalman]

This is not a comparison of quality but of ability to capture usable footage. Long story short, I was unable to capture a home movie with my ATI AIW which I felt was due to my tape being detected as Macrovision protected. Read the long version here: http://www.nepadigital.com/mv

Where the ATI AIW fails miserably the Leadtek comes through with flying colors. I'm now able to capture completley flicker free. No need for a TBC just needed to have a product that works the way it is advertised.

I haven't had a chance to compare quality but from the test run I made the Leadtek clips look very similar to the small usable portions of the clips from the ATI AIW that I was able to capture.

Stay tuned for part II: ATI AIW VS. GeForce FX 5950 Ultra 256MB VIVO


I'll be adding example video clips to my page from all three once I get a chance.

Lordsmurf, you can change your avatar back to burnt if you wish.......


Edit: added new link

[ajc53]

I have been on the verge of buying additional equipment to make my ATI AIW9000 Pro do a better job on my some of my old home VHS movies.

In the meantime, I have also been following your post, since you have been very vocal regarding this apparently common problem.

I am more than curious of your results.

Question: What model VCR's have you been using?

[lordsmurf]

just needed to have a product that works the way it is advertised. .. Lordsmurf, you can change your avatar back to burnt if you wish.......

I think I'll change my avatar to "Coalman is an as...."
... ooops ran out of letters.

Again, ATI cards detect errors caused by Macrovision, as do many other cards. Unfortunately for you, your source is likely full of errors that ANY MV-ENABLED DEVICE WOULD DETECT. A VCR was never made so you could copy commercial tapes. Neither were capture cards. Both objects would likely reject your poor source because the error is in line with Macrovision. Nowhere was it advertised that you could take poor quality sources and/or commercial tapes and convert to DVD. Please show me where this was on the box.

Have you ever taken the time to consider maybe you have a faulty card? Perhaps an exchange would yield a functioning card the 2nd time around?

Have you even tried to install the ATI anti-MV hacks, or at very least rolled back to a slightly older version of ATI MMC and/or the CATALYST drivers? Or did you go right for the "latest and greatest" without reading the negatives about it?

[indolikaa]

Have you ever taken the time to consider maybe you have a faulty card? Perhaps an exchange would yield a functioning card the 2nd time around?

Not a bad thought, especially knowing some of the tapes my ATI was ABLE to capture when it probably should've locked up...

[lordsmurf]

My card has only rejected one tape because of MV protection. We're talking ONE TAPE out of thousands. The other card has NEVER rejected a tape. My APEX often rejects poor tapes as "MV detected" which is the tapes fault, not the device. Most cards and recorders do this, believe it or not.

I have a TBC for other purposes, but I had an ATI long before I had the separate TBC. I never had trouble, from ATI MMC 7.1 to 8.1.

I think it's a bad card, the tapes, the VCR, the wires (big factor too), electrical interference ... any number of things. The fact that another card works proves nothing. Not in this situation. I've seen it before.

Lot of possible problems, but you must have patience to figure it out. Video is not a hobby for the impatient, and I have no sympathy for impatient people. You wouldn't believe the number of things I have to try and retry to get the desired results. I just had to recapture a tape 3 times and re-encode a video 4 times.

It's a shame this guy has a problem. I like to help people, but I'd just assume punch him in the face at this point in time. I don't have patience for know-it-all attitudes, when obviously they are having troubles that prove otherwise.

[next]

This is not a comparison of quality but of ability to capture usable footage. Long story short, I was unable to capture a home movie with my ATI AIW which I felt was due to my tape being detected as Macrovision protected. Read the long version here: http://www.coaldelivery.com/ati

Where the ATI AIW fails miserably the Leadtek comes through with flying colors. I'm now able to capture completley flicker free. No need for a TBC just needed to have a product that works the way it is advertised.

I haven't had a chance to compare quality but from the test run I made the Leadtek clips look very similar to the small usable portions of the clips from the ATI AIW that I was able to capture.

Stay tuned for part II: ATI AIW VS. GeForce FX 5950 Ultra 256MB VIVO


I'll be adding example video clips to my page from all three once I get a chance.

Lordsmurf, you can change your avatar back to burnt if you wish.......

Very interesting. Looking forward to your analysis.

[next]

My card has only rejected one tape because of MV protection. We're talking ONE TAPE out of thousands. The other card has NEVER rejected a tape. My APEX often rejects poor tapes as "MV detected" which is the tapes fault, not the device. Most cards and recorders do this, believe it or not.

I have a TBC for other purposes, but I had an ATI long before I had the separate TBC. I never had trouble, from ATI MMC 7.1 to 8.1.

I think it's a bad card, the tapes, the VCR, the wires (big factor too), electrical interference ... any number of things. The fact that another card works proves nothing. Not in this situation. I've seen it before.

Lot of possible problems, but you must have patience to figure it out. Video is not a hobby for the impatient, and I have no sympathy for impatient people. You wouldn't believe the number of things I have to try and retry to get the desired results. I just had to recapture a tape 3 times and re-encode a video 4 times.

It's a shame this guy has a problem. I like to help people, but I'd just assume punch him in the face at this point in time. I don't have patience for know-it-all attitudes, when obviously they are having troubles that prove otherwise.

Ouch. Sounds like fustration. Oh well. Punch? Convictions can be embarassing at times.

3700+ posts can lead to fustrations I guess. But I thought we were all here to help each other. Not prove a point. Ego can be tough to manage at times. Human nature. Still looking forward to the analysis.

[thecoalman]

Question: What model VCR's have you been using?

Brand new JVC HR-2901U, two other older model VCR's and the original VHS camcorder the footage was recorded on. I tried using s-video/composite/coaxial with the ATI. I only used the JVC via s-video with the Leadtek.

I think it's a bad card, the tapes, the VCR, the wires (big factor too), electrical interference ... any number of things. The fact that another card works proves nothing. Not in this situation. I've seen it before.

Lot of possible problems, but you must have patience to figure it out. Video is not a hobby for the impatient, and I have no sympathy for impatient people. You wouldn't believe the number of things I have to try and retry to get the desired results. I just had to recapture a tape 3 times and re-encode a video 4 times.

It's a shame this guy has a problem. I like to help people, but I'd just assume punch him in the face at this point in time. I don't have patience for know-it-all attitudes, when obviously they are having troubles that prove otherwise.

Look at your first sentence. I agree, could be anyone of these things, but If I'm using the same exact thing with the only difference being the capture card how can you state that "another card proves nothing". It's an identical setup, I could unplug the VCR from the Leadtek and plug it right into the ATI.????? If I switched cables and it worked would your statement then be that it proves it isn't the cables???? Do you work for ATI, maybe the TBC manufacturer? I mean really, I'm serious.

Have you actually read anything I posted here or on my website or do you just read a few sentences then make your judjement? It's a bad card alright...... The simple fact is it doesn't work for me and many other people. This is a common problem not just mine, search this forumn and you will find many posts with the same identical issue. All have a common thread, the ATI cards. I have patiently tried numerous things to get the ATI to work. Drivers, software, VCR's, I even disconnected my speakers and moved them across the room. If a company is going to market a card as being able to capture VHS you should expect that it could. I'm not expecting miracles just some usable captures.

Now you want to punch me in the face, why cause your wrong? Having a tantrum? You started this because you called me dumb for assuming it's the hardware. I think I've done quite well in proving my point that it is the hardware. Could be that it is just my card but I doubt it with the amount of people having the same trouble.

My tapes probably do contain errors, if you read it which I doubt I state that on my webpage. But the fact reamins that the ATI for whatever reason can't capture the same tape as the Leadtek. I expect similar results from the GeForce once it arrives.

On a final note I would like to mention again that the tech from computer vendor informs me they will no longer be offering this card with any of their products because of this issue and another unspecified issue. Obviously I'm not the only one who feels that it's the card, I would assume that they do not take removing a product from their line lightly especially one that many consumers would be very interested in purchasing. I would also like to note that I'm aware of besides an initial response from ATI of installing new drivers their response was nothing, nada, zip. No solution, no suggestion that they replace the card absolutley nothing.

[lordsmurf]

Now you want to punch me in the face, why cause your wrong? .........Could be that it is just my card but I doubt it with the amount of people having the same trouble.

You just answered your own question. You're jumping to a lot of conclusions without testing all options, and then you take it out on me. That's what pissed me off.

[thecoalman]

I jumped to no conclusions, I've been dealing with this for well over a month. I have tested all options, at least to my knowledge. Would also like to state that the ATI does work with a brand new VHS-C tape so the card works. This info is also available on my ATI page.

There are many people out there that have spent hard earned money on this same card. All having the same problem. There is nothing about it on the ATI website and they offer no solution. I personally think there is none. These same people are now stuck with an overpriced Graphics card. I say overpriced because the capture component adds to the price. These same people now have three options, buy more video equipment, buy another capture card or forget about capturing video. All three are unaceptable solutions to me because the ATI should work work as well as any other card, it should at least be able to provide similar results to a cheap $50 card. If this is not the case then they should state it in there literature, not make a blanket statement that you can capture VHS. If I had known this issue when I purchased my computer I would have put the additional money that the AIW cost into a better graphics card and purchased a seperate capture card.

I'm in business and I can guarantee you that if my product doesn't perform as stated I will immediatley rectify the problem which is the way any company should operate. I not only expect this but demand it.

My problem with you is that you seem unwilling to admit that the AIW should work well enough for the average user to capture usable footage from their home movies. Who's going to be using this card most? A Professional? No a professional is going to have a professional setup with all the trimmings. Your average user is going to be using this card and should expect some decent results. In no way should your average user be affected by Macrovision detection for home movies, If this is not the case then ATI should state it.

The last thing I would like to add is there is apparently no Macrovision detection on the Leadtek. I was able to capture the Macrovision protected movie without any trouble which furthers my opinion that it is the Macrovision detection causing my trouble.

[ajc53]

Coal Man:

When you test these other cards check the audio video sync on a fairly lengthy capture.

As frustrated as I get with my ATI, it does do very well in this area. My other cheap USB2.0 capture could not keep sync no matter what program I used, but it did not have these other ATI problems.

[thecoalman]

ajc53,

I'll see about the sync issue, this hasn't been an issue with the ATI because I've never gotten past the actual part of getting usable video. I haven't even had the audio plugged in on any capture. I'll try a full length one and let you know. I'm not using a USB device, the leadtek is a PCI card and the audio is connected internally to the soundcard using the AUX. It was the same setup on the ATI. I have also read on other posts that this can be attributed to system or soundcard issues. In any event I'll let you know.

I've uploaded some example .mpg's. I haven't messed around with the settings on the Leadtek to try to improve quality but one of the most ufortunate things I have found out from these first comparisons is that the ATI capture appears to be better on the few usable parts. Hopefully this will improve with different settings or the GeForce based card which by the way AJC is by no means cheap. Anyhow at least I'm moving in the right direction at least the footage is usable.

Leadtek 2000: <removed link see first post>

ATI AIW: <removed link see first post>

ajc, I just did a 45 minute capture with no sync issue. 720x480 uncompressed AVI. 52 gigs LOL.

[ajc53]

Your examples from the link on the previous post shows exactly what some of my home movies are doing.

For $54, the Lead Tech 2000 Expert may be worth a try. The reviews seem OK.

May be I don't have to spend an additional $700 on more equipment to do an acceptable conversion of my home movies.

My gut feeling is ATI is the better card if not for this MV related crap.

Did you have a cheerleader out there? I had two at about that time. I had not got to 1990 yet on my tapes. I just started 1989 (already completed two years so far)

[Nelson37]

I feel your pain.

First, I don't fault ATI for including MV protection, all the VCR manufacturers do it, I'm not sure if it is legally required.

However, it should NOT give these errors on a homemade tape, poor quality or not, it is the ERRONEOUS detection of MV (which is not there) that is causing much of your problem. To give a poor quality cap on a poor quality tape is understandable, but the card/software should not ADD errors which are not physically present. Digital conversion CAN make some errors more noticeable, though.

I have used the MV software hacks with success on 3 different ATI cards. However, I do not have the 9800 and it is my understanding the hacks do NOT work on this card, which is also apparently more sensitive to this problem. These two facts are probably related.

On my latest card, an AIW 7500, the software hacks stopped all visual evidence of MV except the brightness pulsing. The software would still give a message about copy protection and stop capping after two minutes. This was on commercial tapes that I own. I have had no issues on homemade tapes.

The good news is that the Sima CopyMaster, $39.95, stopped both the brightness pulsing AND the software error message. This is on MMC 8.1,
using S-Video almost exclusively.

Now the fine line distortion at the top is, I believe, an overscan issue not related to MV. Other cards may bypass this by capping at a lower resolution. The horizontal banding issue may be similar.

SFAIK, the 7500 uses the same capture hardware as the 9800, though it is not as good as a gaming card. I felt it a good idea to seperate these two as gaming cards require regular updates while capture does not, and the two combined are much more expensive.

[thecoalman]

My gut feeling is ATI is the better card if not for this MV related crap.

Did you have a cheerleader out there? I had two at about that time. I had not got to 1990 yet on my tapes. I just started 1989 (already completed two years so far)

I just downloaded the latest drivers for the Leadtek, capture seemed to improve slightly but still doesn't look as good as the ATI, it really is unfortunate that this card has this problem. We wouldn't be having this conversation if it worked correctly because I would be more than pleased.

I was a little too old for any cheerleaders at the time the tape was taken, they are my mothers recordings from when my younger brother was in the school band.

Nelson,

I don't fault them either, someone loses money everytime someone makes an illegal copy of something for sale. The hack doesn't work, I tried it. It had no affect on either my home video or my commercial tape. And yes the 9800 is a gaming card and a fantastic one at that. Morrowind was one of the games bundled with it and it almost looks real. The rain on the water was one of the best things, it truly looks like real rain on real water. You can even walk through the water and see the waves from your steps.

[ajc53]

Coal Man:

How are you doing with your Leadtek? Did you get the GetForce yet?

I am still fighting with my ATI. Some tapes I can get by with the SIMA-CT, others without, and still some with no luck.

I did get perfect capture this week end, testing on a year and a half old tape of a recorded TV show and a new recording on my old VHS camcorder. This seems to further show the problem is in the age of the recorded tapes.

I also had positive results on a commercial tape with macrovision without using the SIMS -CT. This was after rolling back my drivers and MMC to 8.1, and using the MV hacks. Like you, I am not here for this kind of capture, but just using to test.

I feel like I am back in the 60's with rabbit ears antenna’s and tin foil. Trying to decide whether to buy an external antenna, when my neighbor gets good reception with his regular rabbit ears.

[thecoalman]

I feel like I am back in the 60's with rabbit ears antenna’s and tin foil. Trying to decide whether to buy an external antenna, when my neighbor gets good reception with his regular rabbit ears.

LOL, reminds me of using a beer can in attempt to get better reception on a radio. Wasn't that part of the Coneheads skit from SNL.

Anyhow, my vendor is out of stock on the board they were going to send me. I e-mailed them requesting a different one if it's going to take them a while to get it in stock. Probably won't be here until Friday or Monday unless they overnight it.

The Leadtek is working, I still don't think the quality is as good as yhe ATI though and that's a shame. I've tried a few other tapes I had trouble with and they all work on the Leadtek. I'm hoping the quality improves with the GeForce based board.

I know one thing, Leadtek has a FM tuner and I love it. I just recorded a Interview my friends did on a local radio station.

Did you see this post. I wonder........?

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=217575

[ajc53]

No I had not yet seen that post .

Thanks, I am definitely linked to that post now.

Wouldn’t that be something!!!

[ajc53]

CoalMan:

Are you still using you ATI video card/capture card in conjunction with the Leadtek?

If so, do you still have MMC and the capture drivers installed? I am wondering if you can go back and forth, or does the software and drivers clash like with my USB2 capture device and ATI’s capture drivers.

[jamawass]

Personally imho leadtek expert mpeg 2 capture quality looks better than ATI although file size is bigger due to no videosoap. ATI's software is more polished but buggy, however leadtek wins with the fm tuner and directburn to dvd all for just $50.

[thecoalman]

They are both installed. The Leadtek is a PCI card, no USB involved. AIW is AGP. I don't use them simultaneously.....at least the capture components. I wouldn't think that would be possible anyway. MMC is unistalled but all the drivers are still intact, the current ones. I don't see why MMC would have any affect on it anyway it's just software. I can still capture with it, I just need to use another capture program.

Jamawass, I'm not complaining, for $50 you can't go wrong. Don't forget the remote, antenna. Mine also came bundled with about $100 worth of software, Ulead Video Studio and Ulead Cool 3-D. Both of which I don't need, I have MediaStudio Pro 7 and 3-D Cool Production. They are probably stripped down vesios but usable. I'm not capturing directly to MPG because I'm doing a lot of editing.

[jamawass]

My AIW is still in my system and I had to reinstall mmc in order to use the dvd player. I unhooked it from cable so I don't know if it causes any conflicts with leadtek

[ajc53]

Coalman:


What type of editing to you do?

I had not got into yet, since I got my feet wet on MPEG2, and got spoiled with the speed. Usually capture time 20-40 minutes to get a burned DVD. Most of the time is in cutting out unwanted scenes, making menus, and sometime adding titles and transitions.

If I decide to switch over and get the Canobus ADVC-100, which only captures DV, I will then be forced to learn about applying filters.

[XBucklawX]

Coalman,

Should i resort back to my ati tv wonder pci and geforce graphics card, and ditch the ati 9000 pro?
That would save me a ton of money, but it will decrease my capture quality.

[thecoalman]

Bucklaw, I don't know that's up to you. Like I said the AIW definitley looks better. Guess it depends on how much money you want to spend.

ajc, nothing spectacular, some ovelayed animations at the most. Adding titles, the editor I have has tons of things. You can create stuff with it. I'm going to archive most of my personal material on DVD in the original capture. I just haven't figure out the best way to do it. I don't want to span a zipped AVI over 10 discs because the spanned discs are particular to the software.

[ajc53]

I gave the Leadtek a good look, especially since NewEgg had a refurbished one for $40.

But I ordered the Canopus ADVC - 100 last night.

I could not bring myself to buy a VCR with TBC, and a standalone TBC totaling $750, and still may not be able to handle some problem tapes with my ATI AIW 9000 Pro. And from what I getting on this site even if the TBC and noise reduction does work it may do it at the cost of a little quality.

So, if I going to lose some quality on a difficult tape why not just use the ADVC - 100.

The reviews on this site are prenominal. I scanned about 100 reviews going back to April 2003, before I found a negative comment. And a lot of the reviews were for converting old VHS home movies.

Even Lordsmurf, on one of his very helpful guides recommends using a Canopus DV as an alternative on converting imperfect sources that require extensive editing.

I plan on to continue using my ATI AIW 9000 Pro when it works. The quality is there.

[marshalljames]

The simple fact is it doesn't work for me and many other people. This is a common problem not just mine, search this forumn and you will find many posts with the same identical issue. All have a common thread, the ATI cards. I have patiently tried numerous things to get the ATI to work. Drivers, software, VCR's, I even disconnected my speakers and moved them across the room. If a company is going to market a card as being able to capture VHS you should expect that it could. I'm not expecting miracles just some usable captures.



That's odd,although I have had numerous problems over the years with my ati AIW cards.I have found that once the fleshware component(me) had learned how to use/install/configure etc ,the ati delivers as promissed.
I have captured numerous VHS tapes using MMC 6.0 and have now made acceptable DVD's out of the HQ mpeg1 video I captured(350 to slow for mpeg2)Despite being told by some high post count that mpeg1 is low quality and makes shit dvd's (I'm sure he never made one but knew all about it just the same)
I have proved that to be bullshit as the framerate for some of my mpeg1's is higher than mpeg 2 framerates and makes excellent video.(David Bowie Live By Request 2002 copies available for trade.)
Just because YOU and many many others can't get the ati to work
doen't mean the ati is crap(Thomas J Crapper inventor of Flush Toilet) more often than not if it's the fleshware then the other harware is lacking(wires,motherboard proceesor etc)

[thecoalman]

Marshall, maybe I should have been more specific. It's the 9000 series card specifically that I'm referring too (9800 in my case), the older cards don't seem to be affected by this and /or it can be fixed with the ATI hack.

My computer is lacking in nothing, it was built with capturing video in mind. I captured a 52 gig uncompressed 720x480 AVI with the leadtek with 0 dropped frames. Which by the way worked perfectly on the first try with the same tape the ATI exhibited problems with. The only difference was the capture card used. Additionally I was in contact with another person who had the same exact problems as me. He purchased a TBC and now has zero problems.

My point is if a one card can do it the ATI should also be able to do it. I've tried everthing, I can't possibly think of anything else to try nor have I read anything else. This is not something where I've all of sudden decided I knew what was wrong, I've been looking into this for nearly 2 months and have found no solution besides buying additional hardware. It's unfortunate that the I'm unable to get the ATI to work correctly all the time because the results that are usable look great.

I also suggest you read everthing, if you went to my page you would have noted that I'm able to capture a brand new VHS-C movie which proves my ATI is capable of capturing. It just can't do it with my older tapes where the Leadtek can.......I can go on and on....anything else you want to know about what I have tried or learned over the last 2 months.

If you have any suggestions I would be glad to here them.

[ajc53]

Marshall:

I will trade you my 9000 Pro for your 7500 straight up!!!!!!!!

I tried to get ATI to do that and they laughed.

ATI is not crap. It is good.

I am capping a year and a half old 20 hour mini series on right now. Taped on a regular cheap consumer VCR with regular no name VHS tapes. Each episode 2 hours with 0 dropped frames and very good picture.

But if I put in one of my 15 year old home movies, it may work. More than likely I will need to use my SIMA CT to barely get to work. I have watch constantly for drops. Some tapes won't work at all (except of course on TV play back it's fine, and I understand the difference). I rolled back the drivers I got the hacks and it is somewhat better.

The problem is not the capturing process, but rather the receiving of the signal , evidenced by the preview before capture.

So my options for problem tapes are either buy more front end equipment or find a device that will look an imperfect signal and roll with it.

So do you want to trade?

[thecoalman]

Go for it Marshshall, sounds like a deal to me....