Significant Degradaton Is this what I should expect

[hardwork12]

Not having much luck. Maybe its my capture card maybe I expected too much From the capture/encoding. here is what I get:

Card: AverTV Stereo
Source: TV from the averTV, VHS, 8mm

I viewed each using PowerVCR full screen to get an idea as to what the source looked like dispalyed on my PC so I could "mentally" compare it to the final VCD output. The pictures were not great but viewable with enough detail to make out faces and see the grass as grass for example.

Capture Vdub, No filters, 352x480, Huffy YUY2 YUV 4.2.2 interleaved,
TV capture 0 frames dropped. For the VHS and 8mm were about 0.05% dropped.

Encode TMPGEnc, Video CD NTSC, all defaults except set Motion Search Precision to Highest Quality.

When I play back any of the encoded VHS, 8mm or TV captures the degredation makes them virtually unviewable. It seems like most detail is lost. For example grass looks more like a green blob rather than seeing the blades like I could when I viewed the same clip in powerVCR on my PC. I burned VCD2.0 CD's using VCDeasy and the picture looks just as bad maybe even worse on the TV.

TV is set up with the DVD player using component video conection to the 53 inch TV so maybe this is a problem somehow.

I also tried a CVD encode but that has vertical bars when viewed on the PC so hard to tell if the detail is better too much other video problems. This I expect is due to the fact that the CVD is interlaced. Unfortunately my DVD player does not play CVD or SVCD.

Can it be just that I will see a big improvement if I could view the CVD on the TV even though the VCD and CVD look horrible on the PC? If so I will buy a new DVD player at a place where I can return up to 30 days like best buy or Crutchfield. Seems like a few reasonably priced compatible units when I look at the compatibility chart.

Any advice.

[kitty]

You might try 704x480 captures which might reduce to a VCD with a bit better clarity. You can always try to move up to SVCD which looks better or maybe try xVCD (unlock the VCD template with the extras/unlock template) then up the bit rate to 1500 or 2000).

If your software doesn't cap that high a res try to see if the drivers at btwincap.sourceforge.net work with your card.

[hardwork12]

Thanks:

Yes I can capture 704X480 with zero frames dropped at least from a TV source I tested it. YES the driver you listed is what allowed me to capture at high resolution. Worth a try. I did not use 704x480 since I thought, apparently incorrectly, that I should capture at the resolution of the final encoding.

Another thing I did not know is that I can use a nonstandard bitrate for the VCD. Is this what you are saying is that I can? Is this what XVCD basically is a VCD with higher than standard bitrate?

As for SVCD should I cature at 704x480 or 480x480? What can I set the bitrate to for SVCD.

I really appreciate your input.

[kitty]

Max "normal" bitrate for SVCD standard is 2520 or so. You can use higher bitrates for VCD or SVCD but you must know that they won't work in some players. You might try a 30 second clip or something suitable and encode at various resolutions & rates. That way the encoding won't take forever.

For SVCD you can try capturing at a higher res or at 480x480 - I am not sure there ill be a big difference.

[hardwork12]

Thanks.

I just did an encode and set the source range so that the encode only took 6 minutes. I tried the 2000 bitrate. Definitely better detail so I (with your advice) am moving in the right direction.

I will have to research a good DVD player. I will get one with a 30 day return policy. Would like to stay standard on the formats so SVCD or CVD seems my best hope so I need to find a resonably priced DVD player that plays both. Guess I will research the compatibility list to find one.

[kitty]

You might wish to go to a store with many players and bring several test discs. Try to play them in your prospective players. They all play & look ok? Then you know what plays what you want.

I did this with the Apex PD-150 portable at a Circuit City. WHat a dog of a player - didn't play much and the screen was horrid.

[crahak]

Everything I have seen, or did myself encode to VCD always turned out to be quite a deception. SVCD looks significantly better (which sufficient bitrates), but CVD is very often overlooked, it has given me better reults than any VCD/SVCD so far... Good luck

[SatStorm]

Your source is the most difficult one to encode to CVD/SVCD specifications.
The only way is go -X-, or DVD....

The last months, I practice a lot with VHS source. With TMPGenc plus, I succeed perfect convertion, only by going -X-:
xCVD, with 1200 minimum, 3500 average and 5800maximum used to very extreme stuff and a 1200 minimum, 3000 average, 4800 maximum gave me the best resulst for most mainstream material.
Encoding Movies from VHS/SVHS, gave me good results with even lower settings, like 1200 minimum, 2520 average, 3820maximum.

With the CCE demo (the one which adds that huge stamp in you screen), I didn't have luck with CVD! Only with SVCD I had good results, so that explains some issues regarding CVD and some reviews for it from CCE users. The point is that for blockiness, an average of 3000 with a 3 Pass VBR encoding, was enough to eliminate them.
So, I suggest you to spent 2000$ and buy CCE and encode your stuff to SVCD (not CVD, that encoder don't like the format...) or spent 48$, buy TMPGenc Plus and go "bitrate -x-" with CVD (and not SVCD).
Both solutions are those who gonna give you the best results IMO
The choice is yours

[hardwork12]

Boy I did not expect these great and detailed answers from so many of the experts here. I have only been involved with this encoding stull for about a month so I am still asking elementary questions so I appreciate the time and patience you all have.

SatStorm

So, I suggest you to spent 2000$ and buy CCE and encode your stuff to SVCD (not CVD, that encoder don't like the format...) or spent 48$, buy TMPGenc Plus and go "bitrate -x-" with CVD

I already bought TMPGEnc so I have that guess I got the right software.

Does the "X" in like X-CVD just mean non-standard or higher than standard bitrate? just want to understand the terminology.

Now I know from another post that I can encode in CVD format and then re-encode to VCD if I wish using Frameserving (not sure what frameserving is yet ) but I have the software to do this encoding using TPMGEnc to go from CVD/SVCD to VCD. My desire to stay standard with CVD was driven by the fact that this is compatible with DVD later (I think).

IF I go "X" CVD or SVCD will I be able to RE-encode somehow to DVD later? I know I will have to upconvert the sound to 48 from 44.1 but what about the video.

If you could post your settings for TMPGEnc that you found best or maybe a link to a template you use fro VHS/8mm that would be great. Also do you use Huffy for capture or do you find there is a better capture compression to use for VHS/8mm sources.

kitty

Great Idea. Generally they don't have much hooked up But I am sure they will let me take the units on the shelf and hook them up.

ALL

If any of you have a great/favorite DVD player that can do what I want CVD/SCVD high bitrate ("x" encodings) then please post here. $150 or less would be great Hey the holidays are comming quick so this would be a great gift (to myself)

[SatStorm]

The bitrate limitations are for CVD. If you go -x- for CVD (higher bitrates), you are okey for DVD.
When I say - X - , I mean more bitrate @ the same resolution. That affects CVD specifications, not DVD ones!

Many DVD standalones don't allow -x- for CVD/SVCD, more or less. Keep in mind that.

the benefit of CVD is that you can keep the video as is when you burn to DVD-R later. You don't re-encode. This is neccessary only to audio and if you don't keep it 48khz the first place.

All those are confusing for a newbie, so I suggest forget anything I posted and start reading the guides from the left of your screen. Eventually, you will end up to what is suitable for you

[hardwork12]

SatStorm

Yes confusing but I am getting there with the help of individuals like you and the exceptionally well written guides. Even though many answers are too hard at first to understand they do help me know what to search on and read about to "fill" the gaps in my understanding. ALL of your answers have been helpful...

I can see that bitrate is one of the key parameters for what I want to acheive. CVD also being DVD compatible is also why I am going to try to get the quality of video I am happy with using CVD. Since I am going from 8mm the resolution of 352x480 shouild be just as good from what I can tell to 480x480 so SVCD holds no advantage to me. x-CVD seems the way to go.

Based on all this If I can find a reasonably priced DVD player that can handle the high CVD bitrates and the 48khz audio I feel I can get where I want to be with my current project of 8mm to VCD. Also for my next project/learning experience of backing-up DVD's.

[pburdett]

I am at about the same place in the learning curve as you, hardwork12, so your threads are always good reading.

I have the same goal as you, home movies on TV, but a different path. My Apex 5131 player won't read CVDs. Also, my encoder (free bbmpeg) doesn't have any templates for CVDs - so I am going down the SVCD path.

I wanted to comment on a few things. First, I recently read that "framserving" has to do with converting from one format to another without creating a huge "working file". I think it is a disk space issue. Can anyone confirm this?

Second, I just recently have been working with -x- stuff. In my case it is XSVCD. It basically lets you exceed the normal limits on the standards. My player will read bitrates of up to 5000, which is about twice the normal standard for an SVCD. That means more quality. I am not sure if you can do XCVDs, but if you can you should look into it and make sure you find a player that can play them. If I understand correctly, CVDs can convert to DVD files without rerendering. But I don't think all CVD mpeg2 files are created equal. DVD can read up to 8000 bps (I read) so I think you want to encode as much info into your mpeg2 files as possible to maximize your quality. That might mean you have to go to an XCVD format.

Don't take any of this as given until somebody smarter than me confirms this. I just want to raise some issues that might be important to you.

It seems to me that you will want to check for a few different features when you shop for you player. Make sure you check hardware reviews here for this info first.

1. It will play CVD
2. It will play xCVD (and if so, at how high a bitrate)
3. It will play from CD-r/w disks (mine doesn't, only CD-r, and this makes experimenting a bit expensive.)

Still not done. If you want to try playing some higher quality stuff on your current player: have you heard of the "header trick"? Actually, I know you have since I saw it on another thread. I have not tried it because my player reads SVCDs - but I understand this trick lets you record in SVCD format (higher quality) and fool your player into thinking that it is in VCD format. If nothing else, seeing something in SVCD will give you confidence that you might eventually have an end product you can live with. VCD never gave me that feeling.

[hardwork12]

pburdett

Thanks helpful info.

YES I will look at all the reviews here best place anywhere. This list you gave made me re-think through what I need and in addition to your list I added DVD-r for the future.

I tried the header trick and so far no luck. It converts without error but the file only plays SOUND but the picture is BLACK so there is signal or it would be BLUE. Get the same problem on my PC and on the CD_RW in my DVD player.

As for the DVD compatibility as far as I have been able to find out as long as the GOP Max Number of Frames does not exceed 18 it will be DVD compatible Is this correct? Anyone!!

[SatStorm]

Yes, the NTSC DVD GOP structure is limited to 18 (PAL is limited to 15).
So, for your (x)CVDs keep that in mind. With SVCD this is not neccessary, since you have to re-encode to 1/2 D1 if you want to convert it to DVD-R.

Just to make you understand something for our Hobby: I am doing VCDs, SVCDs, CVDS, etc for about 3 years and I still learning things. I don't know everything and once in a while always a new issue pops up which I don't know nothing for it. The digital video have many parameters to consider. So, don't give up and keep reading! Eventually, you gonna be "experts" yourself!

[xed]

My own experience is that I get excellent results from encoding plain-vanilla VCDs captured from VHS tape. The degradation is minor. In fact, arguably my VHS captures on VCD look _better_ than the original VHS tapes since they lack the pesky edge crawl characteristic of those analog comb filters. TMPGenc seems to smooth that out.
This leads me to suspect that your capture card may be the problem here. It sounds as though you're getting massive macroblocks. I get nothing at all like that.
A secondary issue might be the VCR you use to play your VHS tapes back. I'm using a Toshiba M785, which includes video pre-amps built into the VCR heads themselves to boost signal-to-noise ratio, as well as hefty frame buffers for DSP video noise reduction. The video noise reduction really works -- you can see a fairly dramatic increase in video quality after a few seconds of playback (it takes a couple of seconds fo rhte adaptive noise reduction algorithms to delete the noise from the picture).
A number of VCRs now features such DSP noise reduction. Sony calls it Digi-Pure, and the current high-end JVC HR9600U has an almost identical DSP noise reduction feature.
These VCRs are not expensive, so you might try plyaing back your VHS tapes with a better VCR. If your masters are 8mm, then you're stuck, alas, for I know of no 8mm deck with built-in DSP noise reduction as is found on the Toshiba M785.
My experience looking over folks' shoulders indicates that dedicated digital video catprues cards like the Pinaccle DV-500 and the Canopus ADVC-100 produce significantly better quality video captures than the all-in-one cards that try to be a PC graphics card as well as a video capture card.
SatStorm is of course quite right when s/he points out that VHS is the hardest source to get good captures/VCD encodes from. However, as mentioned, I have had relatively little problem getting quite good VCDs from captured VHS playback.
This leads me to suspect the problem may result from your capture card and/or your choice of VCR to playback the VHS tape.

[SatStorm]

Hi xed...
VCD is mpeg 1 @ 352 X 288. That way you don't have issues like interlace artifacts etc.

VHS is 352 X 288/240 so, capturing @ 352 X 576/480 and encode to VCD is a good and easy to do procedure with great quality.
But the true is that VCD ain't enough for VHS. For movies etc it is OK, but for hard staff like music videos or home material, ain't enough. You need more bitrate and also, there is the interlace issue. The progressive VCD ain't look nice to a typical TV Screen.

For me there are 2 ways to create VHS like encodings. Both use mpeg 2 (interlace support) and one of them is going low framesize -x- (352 X 288 @ 1400-1600kb/s) and the other high framesize -x- (352 X 576 @ 3000-3500kb/s). Since I have access to entry and semi pro equipment, I can say safely that from my results that is what I feel true.

I had succeed VCDs with great picture from DVB material and also some movies from VHS. But I never succeed a good VCD from a noisy VHS tape with an action movie for example. There are blocks and filtering can do nothing for it.
It all depands from the source. And what you wish to do.

[hardwork12]

Just to make you understand something for our Hobby: I am doing VCDs, SVCDs, CVDS, etc for about 3 years and I still learning things

That is why I appreciate everyones desire and time to help individuals like me who have been at this for only 3 WEEKS. But yes this is a project for me to go 8mm to CVD but a hobby as well.

I tried a bitrate of 2000kbits/sec on the VCD and on my PC I can see better detail. Unfortunately the 2000Kbits/sec will not play on my DVD player the bit rate is too high. also mine can not play SVCD or CVD.

The limitation looks like I need a better DVD player to move on so I can try XVCD and XCVD. Just my luck I choose one of the hardest tasks for my first project 8mm home movies that eat up bitrate to CVD.

EDIT: Forgot this information. I did a capture from my VCR using a prerecorded movie with a set of scenes with little motion and with significant action. The VCD was not as good as the VCR image on the TV but for the slow action it was close. The Fast action scenes degraded (trouble handling the detail). This looks like I am not capture limited at this point but Bitrate limited in my encodes and that the VCD just is not a high enough bitrate to be VCR quality Does this conclusion seem correct?

I ordered myself a DVD drive for my PC should be here today or tomorrow. With that I can do a DVD RIP and see how well I can encode a VCD just to see if my problem is mostly the 8mm bitrate needs being the issue and I can encode a good quality VCD. This also bypasses my Capture card as well.

Another EDIT: Got the DVD player installed did a rip and encoded to VCD2.0. Followed this guide http://www.vcdhelp.com/sefy/?id=ClassicalGuide.html (THANKS SEFY!!!) where would I be without this forum . I can see that the quality of the video is decent certainly degraded fronm the DVD but I expected that. The kind of degredation is similar to what I get with the 8mm capture. Since the DVD rip is from such a high quality source the VCD works quite well. Putting that same degredation onto the 8mm capture is just too much loss of quality to be useful. Well CVD has twice the bitrate so the DVD to CVD should be excellent and I hope the 8mm to CVD will be acceptable.

Now I need to research and try some DVD players and get one that alows for high bitrate CVD's and hopefully DVD-r capable. The search begins

[xed]

Satstorm remarks that VCD use MPEG 1 with 352 x 288 , which tells us that SatStorm lives in Europe. That's the European PAL standard VCD. Here in America, VCDs use MPEG 1 with 352 x 240 at 1150 kbits/sec.
Satstorm is quite correct that the quality of the VCD will depend to some degree on the source -- not so much the quality of the source, mind you, as the amoutn of change per frame.
Howeve,r permit me to respectfully disagree with SatStorm's statement that for music videos or home movies VCDs do not provide good enough quality.
It depends entirely on the music video or the home video. I have encoding relatively slow-changing home movies and VCD encoding with TMPGEnc produces excellent results, even from VHS tape.
As for music videos, let's take some specific examples. Soft Cell's "Frustration" contains very little frame change...for instance, no rapid panning, no fast zooms. As a result this music video encodes very well to VCD and the result looks great. However, if we consider a music video like Bananarama's "I Heard A Rumour," which abounds with stop-motion and constant zoom-in and zoom-out and rapid flashy pans, the VCD turns to macroblock junk during those fast-changing scenes because 1150 kbits/sec just ain't enough to handle that kind of change of data from one frame to the next. During the scenes when the girls are singing without any flashy camerwork, however, that music video looks great on VCD.
So it really depends on the source.
There's no doubt that if you want to completely avoid all macroblock artifacts, you must use a higher bitrate.
Mpeg 2 is a better method of encoding, with fewer artifacts, as well as handling a higher bitrate than Mpeg 1. So Hardwork12 may want to move to Mpeg 2 and a higher bitrate.
However, VHS has relatively low resolution. Depending on the source mateiral, you will nonetheless get excellent results by using a high-quality playback VCR (preferably one with DSP noise reduction) and by using a really good capture card or dedicated piece of capture hardware.
Specific example: the encodes I've made of Firefly episodes from native off-the-air VHS look quite good. Once again, none of the massive macroblock problems Hardwork 12 describes.
So it depends on the source, on your playback VCR, and on the capture hardware. But you can get very good results encoding VCDs from a VHS source if you do it right.

[huykin]

Your source is the most difficult one to encode to CVD/SVCD specifications. The only way is go -X-, or DVD....

The last months, I practice a lot with VHS source. With TMPGenc plus, I succeed perfect convertion, only by going -X-: xCVD, with 1200 minimum, 3500 average and 5800maximum used to very extreme stuff and a 1200 minimum, 3000 average, 4800 maximum gave me the best resulst for most mainstream material.Encoding Movies from VHS/SVHS, gave me good results with even lower settings, like 1200 minimum, 2520 average, 3820maximum.

With the CCE demo (the one which adds that huge stamp in you screen), I didn't have luck with CVD! Only with SVCD I had good results, so that explains some issues regarding CVD and some reviews for it from CCE users. The point is that for blockiness, an average of 3000 with a 3 Pass VBR encoding, was enough to eliminate them.

So, I suggest you to spent 2000$ and buy CCE and encode your stuff to SVCD (not CVD, that encoder don't like the format...) or spent 48$, buy TMPGenc Plus and go "bitrate -x-" with CVD (and not SVCD).
Both solutions are those who gonna give you the best results IMO
The choice is yours

Hey SatStorm,

In your CVD guide (which seems to be the semi-official VCDHelp's CVD info) and some of your other posts you indicated that CCE is significantly better than TMPGEnc for CVD. But here you say the opposite. So which one is the truth? Can you elaborate? (This is really important to me because I am in the beginning of archiving my 8mm tapes to XCVD, and I thought of using CCE.) Thanks!

[dphirschler]

Three things for you to try.

1. Deinterlace before resizing.

2. Inverse telecine before resizing. Especially if your source is a movie which is most likely shot on film vs video. When you encode to mpeg, encode to "film vcd". Set your source as progressive non-interlaced. Also set to "3:2 pulldown on playback".

3. Make use of temporal cleaners. This will reduce the amount of noise in the picture leaving more bitrate bandwidth available for encoding the action instead of the background.


Darryl

[SatStorm]

Hi, huykin
You see, when I wrote that article (which needs update...), I compared the results between CCE and TMPGEnc. The TMPGenc results was based on my knowledge. For CCE, I let the CCE Experts lead me how to test CVD.
CCE was a winner (not that huge difference, but CCE was the winner!)

I use for myself TMPGenc. CCE is just for checking and testing. To tell you the true, my knowledge for this encoder is average. Since I do my job excellent with DVD2AVI/TMPGEnc and I am happy with the results, I don't see any reason to change it.
On my latest tests, I didn't ask help from CCE experts. I did all the test by myself. So, for various reasons I didn't have luck with CCE. (the main reason was that I forget to resize correct, CCE needs that avisynth and I am not good with avisynt...)

That happens when you use TMPGenc and love it.

[huykin]

SatStorm,

Are your recent objections to encoding CVD with CCE related to resizing only? In other words, if I don't resize (capture and encode @ 352x480) or resize it properly (with Avisynth or VirtualDub), do you see any other issues with using CCE to encode CVD?

Thanks.

[SatStorm]

I don't have objections for CCE, I simply don't have luck with it, when I use it myself!
I repeat, I am no the right person to ask about CCE !