Are free avysinth and vdub filters so superior for restoration or not

[mammo1789]

I tried many approaches of archiving vhs footage ( homemade crappy tapes ranging from 1990-2000 ), i even delude myself to learn avysinth a bit and started to use some scripts ( not to complex but still usable), use a lot of knowledge from this site listening the experienced ( especially lord smurf ) about getting the best results, and was pretty happy from the results. Hardware I have Vcr JVC 5800 and 2 panasonic nv hs 1000 and nv fs200 ( the best suggested ones by lord smurf ) I mostly use vdub,sony vegas platinum (I don't have money for pro ), neat video home , some avysinth scripts and encoders hc, mainconcept reference. My cousin is working in a national TV in Europe , and they use adobe products CS5( premiere after effects and so on, with many expensive filters my cousin didn't wanted to tell me but I think red giant, sapphire, and probably revision maybe algolith I don't know. One weekend I took my vcrs panasonic ones ( so the hardware sources were the same with my setup) and ask him to transfer one tape that was having me trouble in some uncompressed format restore it and put them on my external drive ( 1tb hdd) also uncompressed or some lossless format. when he gave me the drive I was woved and shocked I couldn't believe my eyes, I mean the results were way out of what I was I expecting, I mean someone once said garbage in garbage out but this was no garbage no sir. I asked him what vcr he was using he said the one that you gave me ( I suspect that he used some sort of machine ) and that the filters he used were software and hardware combined he smiled at me and said, do you really think that some filters and software that some guy made them in some garage and are free of charge can be better than this. Are we stupid to use software and equipment of thousands of dollars to have the same results. I went home and started to dream to have more money to buy his stuff)
I thought that this story would be interesting for as hobbyists that professional is always professional and no matter how good free can never be as good as paid.

Your thoughts on this guys

[hech54]

homemade crappy tapes

I believe your problem boils down to "expectations".

[guns1inger]

What can be done in software can be quite amazing, however there is only so much it can do. High end hardware, such as that used by studios, can give you a much higher quality starting point from which to apply your software filters. Some of that hardware is available to consumers at a price, but much of what a studio would have on hand it far to expensive for even pro-sumers to consider.

That said, your cousin sounds like a condescending douche who hasn't actually spent any time looking at or trying some of the filters available for avisynth or vdub.

[SLK001]

I tried many approaches of archiving vhs footage ( homemade crappy tapes ranging from 1990-2000 )...

He probably fed the output thru a professional quality time base corrector.

[mammo1789]

That said, your cousin sounds like a condescending douche who hasn't actually spent any time looking at or trying some of the filters

I agree about the douche part ) no hard feelings for my cousin, but really is there any software or filters for let's say adobe premiere or after effect, intended for restoration, that as far suppress vdub or avysinth usability and that costs a lot of money ( 10k $ or 100k $ or 1mil $) and is very simple and runs on windows or Linux, that I don't know about. Just as change

[2Bdecided]

There's plenty of high-end hardware and software restoration tools that are far faster and easier to use than AVIsynth/VirtualDub. e.g. 1000x better in each respect. They also have far more robust (i.e. artefact-free) algorithms for motion-tracking, deinterlacing, standards conversion etc, though whether the quality is better on a given bit of footage is a different matter. AVIsynth/VirtualDUB can be painful to use for colour correction, and not always that intuitive for fixing levels.

However, from "homemade crappy tapes", they don't really have any magic available.

So if you really want to know what they did, post a sample showing their result, and a sample showing your result + hardware/software you used, and I bet someone can suggest a way to get 99% of the professional result.

Cheers,
David.

[lordsmurf]

My cousin is working in a national TV in Europe
Your thoughts on this guys

I'd love to meet your cousin. I could probably make him feel like a dumbass in 5 minutes or less. As much as I've written on this site, it probably only reflects 10% of what I know. If you expand Internet-wide (especially TVPreservation.com and digitalFAQ.com), then maybe 25%, as some of the other sites pick my brain more in posts.

There are various sub-groups within the video professional world, and the ones who irritate me the most are the TV station worker monkeys. Going back to my earliest days of video, the low-level stooges at cable companies and TV stations have always been the self-proclaimed masters of video work, but few ever displayed such mastery/knowledge, and often butchered audio and video in the process . (Note that I'm not insulting all TV/cable workers. VH has several, and they're beacons of knowledge.)

knowledge from this site listening the experienced ( especially lord smurf ) about getting the best results

Thanks.

Hardware I have Vcr JVC 5800 and 2 panasonic nv hs 1000 and nv fs200 ( the best suggested ones by lord smurf ) I mostly use vdub,sony vegas platinum (I don't have money for pro ), neat video home , some avysinth scripts and encoders hc, mainconcept reference.

You're fine. Only thing missing is maybe a full-frame TBC, if needed. You also failed to mention your capture card and workflow.

, and they use adobe products CS5( premiere after effects and so on, with many expensive filters my cousin didn't wanted to tell me but I think red giant, sapphire, and probably revision maybe algolith I don't know.

Great setup for editing video, adding effects. But outside of color correction, these tools do nothing for correcting video. The NR tools are a joke.

One weekend I took my vcrs panasonic ones ( so the hardware sources were the same with my setup)
I asked him what vcr he was using he said the one that you gave me

A requirement of these VCRs is that you really know how to use them -- all their settings, ins and outs, etc. It may simply be a knowledge gap between what you know, and what he knows, as it relates to this VCR.

I was woved and shocked I couldn't believe my eyes, I mean the results were way out of what I was I expecting,

Explain.

( I suspect that he used some sort of machine ) and that the filters he used were software and hardware combined

Undoubtedly. The key to quality video is the use as much hardware correction as possible, leaving as little work as possible for software corrections. That costs money, of course, which is why important videos should be sent to services, not just made "good enough" with cheaper home methods. That's especially important for valuable home memories, such as weddings.

he smiled at me and said

I agree with guns1inger: Douchebag.

, do you really think that some filters and software that some guy made them in some garage and are free of charge can be better than this.

Yes. And it has nothing to do with cost, and everything to do with audience. Hobby users deal with the kinds of garbage pros rarely see. For that reason, skilled programmers have dedicated themselves to tackling these kinds of noise problems, video errors, etc. Pro software is tuned to pro sources, which arrive clean and virtually noise-free. At most, they just need color corrective work, for which there is a whole industry in itself. Note that hobby tape filters differ from film pro filters, so there is no overlap/comparison there, either. I'd rather let a hobbyist 2nd-pass restore a kinescope, for example, as opposed to somebody like your cousin. (2nd-pass, as in after the film has been corrected and transferred, and it's time to tackle the content only.)

Are we stupid to use software and equipment of thousands of dollars to have the same results.

Yes, possibly. They'd be stupid to think the thousand-dollar software does the same task as the "garage" software. To even call it "garage" software is sort of candy-assed on his part. He doesn't seem to realize these filters have been found useful not only by home users (as you find on VH), but by professionals in other non-TV video fields. Forensic analysis, for example (a field way above the pay and knowledge of your cousin).

I thought that this story would be interesting for as hobbyists that professional is always professional and no matter how good free can never be as good as paid.

That's simply not a true statement. I use the best tools, period. The end. If it's free, awesome. If it costs $5,000 -- gulp -- here's my corporate Visa. In fact, to even call these tools "free" overlooks the man-hours required to learn and experiment, so it's not really "free" software in terms of final costs. I can think of few exceptions where good free software is truly effortless (ImgBurn comes to mind -- and fat chance finding a paid burning program that outperforms ImgBurn).

__________

Footnote: I don't get a lot of free time online anymore, so understand I reply slower than I used to. In fact, I'll often miss posts because days can pass between my VH visits. So if anybody needs/wants anything from me, they'll need to PM to get my attention. Or find me on my home forum.

[themaster1]

I'd be glad to see the fantastic results you get with his "paid" hardware versus original content

[mammo1789]

Thanks guys unfortunately I don't have the video anymore because it was meant for friend and was a recording of her father from 1991. Because I am not expert I do this only for my pleasure I tough of sending it to professional service but there is none in my country and lord smurf you leave in USA as I think, so to send the tape across the ocean is little to much. But the problem was the tape itself was in really bad condition I open the case and there was a some sort of like a melted part like I tiny round spot in the middle of the track , and across the tape, lines like it was folded in half and then returned back or like jammed several times in vcr and then forcly taken out I really don't know and she is totally hardware not literate women so I didn't ask.
I tried playing it on my vcr and on Panasonics the tbc was useless because made the picture weird and jerky and without the tbc line was constant going up and down, the picture was having like a half noisy part and a think it was gone
In conversation my cousin sad come to work with me and I will do my best, and after I played the material there was not anomalies that I see before, besides I know that color correction and maybe some noise suppression, and some sharpening is well done in vdub and avysinth ( at least I can do ) but to see these anomalies go away I was really surprised .
That what I said to him that he might put the tape in same machine that cure the vhs tapes and maybe that's way it came so good

You're fine. Only thing missing is maybe a full-frame TBC, if needed. You also failed to mention your capture card and workflow

Lord smurf I hardly find the vcrs ( the jvc 5800 was practically new in a box and the guy sold me as a regular VCR for 50 euro's which is very cheap in my country, the pan nv hs 1000 vas 50 euros also but without remote and it looked like it survived UFC fight, the fs 200 was pretty good but without remote also and cost around 95 euro's) and most of them never heard of TBC I read allot about avt 8710 but I can't find here and nearest to me is Greece and I don't think they have it.
My setup is q6600 3.2 GHz 6 gb DDR 2 , ati 5870 1gb, pinnacle 110i pro.HDD 1 500gb wd and 1 tb Samsung. Software Vdub for capturing pal 720x 576 lagarith yuv2, capturing in windows vista 32 and working in windows 7 64 bit dual boot.

[magillagorilla]

So you sent some tape to some guy with a magic VCR that made the footage look amazing, but you don't have the footage anymore? The guy with the magic VCR won't tell you what he did. Your asking the forum if AVISynth and VDUB can do as good or better than the scenario for which you have no sample footage. Really?

Neat story, thanks for sharing.

[lordsmurf]

machine that cure the vhs tapes .

It may have been run through an RTI TapeChek.
That would supposedly remove tape debris, work to remove tape crinkles, etc. Those cost $10k

[Nelson37]

Did you actually see the "VCR" he used to play the tape? I'm thinking something that would do a better job of tensioning, with all the damage described to the tape itself just getting any playback at all may have been most of the trick.

[mammo1789]

So you sent some tape to some guy with a magic VCR that made the footage look amazing, but you don't have the footage anymore? The guy with the magic VCR won't tell you what he did. Your asking the forum if AVISynth and VDUB can do as good or better than the scenario for which you have no sample footage. Really?

Yes the tape was not important to me or the video which after transfering I deleted it because I needed the space. The question was is there anything "fancy" ( as hollywood or discovery use for footage of 1920 or some bad tapes from other era )out there not that I don't trust avisynt or vdub which I use dally.

Neat story, thanks for sharing

My point of the "story" which by the way is true is not to make fun of the community, but asking is there anything else in the world simpler heavily expensive and exceptionally effective in doing restoration, some name or company for example. Not that I would go and buy it tomorrow just as example I don't see why not to be enlightening up about something, isn't this forum is all about.

For example I know that lord smurf suggests that for color correction is better to go adobe or sony path. right? and there is nothing wrong in asking.

It may have been run through an RTI TapeChek.
That would supposedly remove tape debris, work to remove tape crinkles, etc. Those cost $10k

Thanks smurf for the information, I was suspecting something similar. Can somebody iron the tapes (and how) homemade if possible , I think I read somewhere that way you can remove crinkles.

Thanks everybody.

[poisondeathray]

asking is there anything else in the world simpler heavily expensive and exceptionally effective in doing restoration, some name or company for example.

On the software side, there are dedicated restoration suites that are quite expensive: e.g. pfclean, davinci revival, hs-art diamant .

Masking, motion tracking, and color correcting is much better with them than something like vdub or avisynth. Multiple tracks and layers facilitate repairs on composited single damaged frames . You can intelligently clone areas/motion track parts of frames into other damaged ones. Doing those types of repairs in avisynth would take forever to do, if at all possible

Some of the "global" filters have similarities in avisynth. For example, dirt removal, dust removal , noise removal, frame interploation.

The Adobe software you mentioned aren't intended for specifically for restoration, it's more generic purpose software - although they have tools that can be useful for restoration . I use AE all the time for masking and compositing things . AE is like photoshop for video

vdub or avisynth have great tools for certain things, but they are lacking in some areas. Adobe software is great for some things, very poor at others. Same with dedicated restoration software. I view them more as complimentary with strengths and weaknesses

[lordsmurf]

Did you actually see the "VCR" he used to play the tape? I'm thinking something that would do a better job of tensioning, with all the damage described to the tape itself just getting any playback at all may have been most of the trick.

You can adjust some of the Panasonic VCRs for this.

[jmac698]

Freeware denoisers often are competitive with commercial noise reduction solutions and sometimes provide the same or better quality with higher processing speed; commercial solutions like Sapphire GrainRemove and Adobe After Effects internal showed lower quality than did freeware solutions like 2d cleaner, VHS, DNR and others. These freeware solutions have higher processing speeds as well.

http://www.yuvsoft.com/pdf/video_denoiser_comparison.html#_Toc165969025

[magillagorilla]

mammo1789, I got ya. I thought you were trying to bait the forum, like "my pizza tastes better that yours but you can't have a slice".

Still would have been cool to see everyone try to beat a sample from the results you describe. In my limited experience, you can spend as much money as you want on restoration tools but you hit the point of deminishing returns pretty quickly. VHS resolution does not offer very many pixels to push around.

[mammo1789]

mammo1789, I got ya. I thought you were trying to bait the forum, like "my pizza tastes better that yours but you can't have a slice

"

No really I'm not that guy I appreciate everyone on the forums and I think this is the best place to share ideas and post questions.

You can adjust some of the Panasonic VCRs for this

Lord smurf I heard that Panasonic nv hs 1000 (as I have ) has some sort of precise tracking adjustment on the back of the vcr on a tiny hole, I'm not sure that I should touch that, is it safe?
On my other Vcr Panasonic nv fs200 has the same holes but nothing in them for adjustment very strange is it safe to tweak this with a screwdriver or just leaving it like that.