h264 1080p30 to 1080p24?

[orangeboy70]

Hey all -
I have a TiVo Premiere that accepts (up to) h264 1080p24 content. I have in my possession a file that is h264 1080p30. Is there a way to easily convert 1080p30 to 1080p24? TIA!

Edit: I'd prefer to use CLI if possible. I have a Windows script that incorporates eac3to.exe and mp4creator to demux then remux mkv files into mp4 containers, which my TiVo accepts natively. I'd like to incorporate a CLI tool to "tone down" content greater than 1080p24 as part of the process.

[PuzZLeR]

Is there a way to easily convert 1080p30 to 1080p24?

Yes it's easy - if it's hard-telecined content (2/5 interlaced frames - unlikely for 30p), or progressive with a repeat frame (1/5 repeat frames - more likely for 30p). This means that it's a native 24p film source and conversion just would need a simple AviSynth script for either case.

No it's not easy - if it's not a film source.

TIA!

Google reported Transient Ischemic Attack. If you're experiencing such symptoms, then this Forum isn't the best place for help with this.

Edit: I'd prefer to use CLI if possible. I have a Windows script that incorporates eac3to.exe and mp4creator to demux then remux mkv files into mp4 containers, which my TiVo accepts natively. I'd like to incorporate a CLI tool to "tone down" content greater than 1080p24 as part of the process.

Incorporate the x264.exe executible into your remuxing workflow, which is a free H.264 encoder (with your AviSynth script, and commandline functions/parameters as input).

For further advice, lots depends on what your source is like (as well as more defined specs on what your TiVo accepts as your intended target), so if you can provide a bit more info it would help us help you more.

[orangeboy70]

Thanks for the reply, PuzZLeR!

Is there a way to easily convert 1080p30 to 1080p24?

Yes it's easy - if it's hard-telecined content (2/5 interlaced frames - unlikely for 30p), or progressive with a repeat frame (1/5 repeat frames - more likely for 30p). This means that it's a native 24p film source and conversion just would need a simple AviSynth script for either case.

No it's not easy - if it's not a film source.

Great! I've attached a full MediaInfo report of the original mkv file. I don't know if that will tell if it's hard-telecined or progressive with repeat frame, but is sounds like that's a trivial point.

TIA!

Google reported Transient Ischemic Attack. If you're experiencing such symptoms, then this Forum isn't the best place for help with this.

No, not suffering from that. My intended use of TIA was: Thanks In Advance

Edit: I'd prefer to use CLI if possible. I have a Windows script that incorporates eac3to.exe and mp4creator to demux then remux mkv files into mp4 containers, which my TiVo accepts natively. I'd like to incorporate a CLI tool to "tone down" content greater than 1080p24 as part of the process.

Incorporate the x264.exe executible into your remuxing workflow, which is a free H.264 encoder (with your AviSynth script, and commandline functions/parameters as input).

For further advice, lots depends on what your source is like (as well as more defined specs on what your TiVo accepts as your intended target), so if you can provide a bit more info it would help us help you more.

So it sounds like I'd use x264 + AviSynth immediately after demuxing the mkv file to prepare the video stream, and just prior to remuxing with mp4creator? That would seem to be within my capabilities, though I've not used AviSynth scripts before.

As far as what the TiVo specs are, the "acceptable" formats were basically discovered by TiVo enthusiasts. I've been going by somewhat outdated information found here: TiVo Video Compatibility. I say somewhat outdated because the information is based on earlier models. TiVo Corp. doesn't detail much in their public specs.

[manono]

I've attached a full MediaInfo report of the original mkv file.

It's useless. If you don't know what you have you'll have to upload maybe a 5 second section of it, one with steady movement.

[orangeboy70]

Hmm. Would this be all that's necessary after demuxing the h264 and ac3 stream?:

#Test.avs
AviSource("Test.h264").AssumeFPS("ntsc_film")

Then when remuxing back into mp4 with mp4creator, I'd pass:

mp4creator.exe -create=Test.avs -rate=23.976 -timescale=23976 -optimize -use64bits Test.mp4
mp4creator.exe -create=Test.ac3 -optimize Test.mp4

Edit: No. mp4creator doesn't like .avs extensions.

[poisondeathray]

You have to re-encode whenever you use avisynth

If this is true 30p , there is no easy fix for this problem . You can't do a simple slowdown with assumefps , because that's a 25% difference. You will notice that, especially with the audio. It's not like a 25p to 24p slowdown where the difference is less

You can't just re-wrap it either , you need some sort of decimation (e.g. changefps() ) and it will be jerky, or frame interpolation but it will have blend artifacts but be less jerky. These methods require re-encoding

If you don't know what you have, then upload a sample

[orangeboy70]

Thanks all.
Here's about 15 seconds worth.

[manono]

That's the best you can do, a logo? You probably couldn't have picked a worse sample. However, it's progressive 29.97fps. I can't tell whether or not it's been deinterlaced already with a blend deinterlacer, or perhaps by blending the heck out of it. In any event, if it's a movie it's not supposed to be 29.97fps. The problem might be getting it back to 23.976fps, but without a better sample who knows if it can be accomplished properly? My suggestion is to stop downloading crap from the internet and get the movie on DVD or Blu-Ray (if it's a movie).

[PuzZLeR]

Hi again, glad you're not having a stroke...

Yeah I too will say a logo is not always a good reading. (But who knows? The actual movie itself could be very different).

In my first post I said it wouldn't be an easy conversion if it wasn't a film source, and, sadly, based on the logo, it isn't. I too see a full 29.97fps pattern and no telecined film source within. If it was a film source in a visually progressive source (where a MediaInfo report is useless as mentioned), a simple TDecimate() with AviSynth would have done it (or accompanied with tfm() if it was hard-telecined interlace).

Sadly, the conversion is not an easy one - as PDR pointed out in accurate detail.

As for the TiVo settings, they could be anything, and it may be picky. Even blu-ray on its own was tricky enough for many of us too over the years. Yes, after some trial and error a TiVo model was built, but without an open spec, or available white paper, these things are never 100%. Even HandBrake itself had to abandon several profiles over the years because they simply were problematic.

Yes, you can use x264 that way in between within your workflow, but as for your script, look into MVTools to change your framerate - not easy. That is, if your TiVo will still play it.

My suggestion is to stop downloading crap from the internet and get the movie on DVD or Blu-Ray (if it's a movie).

I fully agree. There truly is alot of "ripped" garbage on the 'Net from many that don't have a clue about processing video.

I was about to say get a media player instead, but personally I hate these things for the reason that I believe their existence is for playing this very garbage to begin with.

[orangeboy70]

Thanks guys.

[PuzZLeR]

Hi again.

Took another look at those settings. I'm actually surprised, and impressed if so, in the TiVo profile including normal b-pyramids - many devices/decoders, including blu-ray, could choke on those without at least a strict version of them.

Interesting.

[orangeboy70]

Hi again.

Took another look at those settings. I'm actually surprised, and impressed if so, in the TiVo profile including normal b-pyramids - many devices/decoders, including blu-ray, could choke on those without at least a strict version of them.

Interesting.

Are you referring to the sample? Unfortunately, the sample doesn't play on the TiVo. Also, I've been informed that 1080p30 does indeed play on the Premiere, so fps (in this case) isn't the issue. I don't know what normal b-pyramids are, but will do some research to have a better understanding. Maybe the b-pyramids are what's causing the file not to play?

[off-topic]
I'm not a videophile, and the content I watch is typically for one-time consumption, and not stored/archived/burned. That being said, I'm tolerant of the crap/garbage to an extent. My preference is h264 over XviD/DivX/whatever, which I must be thinking is the best of the worst. So if I can get something to play on my TV through my TiVo, I'm happy with that. As mentioned, I wrote a Window's script that demuxes these mkv files into audio & video files that get remuxed into an mp4 container, so I do put forth some effort to satisfy my consumption. The purpose of this thread was to try to (easily) account for different scenarios that I may come across. But in the end, if I can't get a file to play, I don't have any issues with deleting the file, or setting it aside for the time being to be transcoded into a compatible format later. But... If I were a videophile with the intention of setting up media server, the yes, I'd probably want to do everything in my power to get the most out of any physical media that I owned, and not bother with what may be found on the 'net. But as it is, since it's there, I'll download it. It would still be there if I didn't download it, so I don't lose any sleep over it.
[/off-topic]

[PuzZLeR]

Are you referring to the sample? Unfortunately, the sample doesn't play on the TiVo.

No, not the sample, didn't mean to confuse. I was referring to your link and the TiVo profile encode settings. It's surprising to see b-pyramid enabled. B-pyramid references b-frames for higher compression, so it demands more resources and makes many other devices puke. I was impressed that the TiVo is accommodating with them according to that link.

Also, I've been informed that 1080p30 does indeed play on the Premiere, so fps (in this case) isn't the issue. I don't know what normal b-pyramids are, but will do some research to have a better understanding. Maybe the b-pyramids are what's causing the file not to play?

Maybe, maybe not, it's hard to tell without something lucid like rez or fps. But it's good that frame rate isn't the issue since a true 30p would be difficult, and costly to quality, to convert to 24p.

But who cares, and why bother trying to figure out what some numbskull did with those settings? You'd still need to re-encode anyway and it's now only a straightforward encode instead of something complicated like a twisted fps change.

[off-topic]
I'm not a videophile, and the content I watch is typically for one-time consumption, and not stored/archived/burned. That being said, I'm tolerant of the crap/garbage to an extent. My preference is h264 over XviD/DivX/whatever, which I must be thinking is the best of the worst. So if I can get something to play on my TV through my TiVo, I'm happy with that. As mentioned, I wrote a Window's script that demuxes these mkv files into audio & video files that get remuxed into an mp4 container, so I do put forth some effort to satisfy my consumption. The purpose of this thread was to try to (easily) account for different scenarios that I may come across. But in the end, if I can't get a file to play, I don't have any issues with deleting the file, or setting it aside for the time being to be transcoded into a compatible format later. But... If I were a videophile with the intention of setting up media server, the yes, I'd probably want to do everything in my power to get the most out of any physical media that I owned, and not bother with what may be found on the 'net. But as it is, since it's there, I'll download it. It would still be there if I didn't download it, so I don't lose any sleep over it.
[/off-topic]

Just because a digital asset has infinite turnover doesn't make it any more right to download it. You're still taking something regardless, which is the artist's work for free when he/she should be compensated for their efforts to entertain you. Your logic dictates the similar mindset as one who enters a book store, says I'm only going to take home the book, read it, and give it back (without payment).

If we appear to be snubbing you it's because, to be honest, we get lots of people from the Order of the Unwashed coming in here and on their first (and many times only post) they want to know how to make some MKV they "acquired" play on their blu-ray player.

I'm not being some prude or something, or trying to be some Enforcer of Good, but what gets my goat about these people is not that they're not videophiles, but that they have no interest in video at all, or to learn something - they only pollute the Forum and selfishly waste others' time.

At least you're not like that, but nevertheless, you can expect some coldness from members regarding help with downloaded files of this nature.

[orangeboy70]

Are you referring to the sample? Unfortunately, the sample doesn't play on the TiVo.

No, not the sample, didn't mean to confuse. I was referring to your link and the TiVo profile encode settings. It's surprising to see b-pyramid enabled. B-pyramid references b-frames for higher compression, so it demands more resources and makes many other devices puke. I was impressed that the TiVo is accommodating with them according to that link.

Ah. Thanks for the clarification.
Tivo really upped the ante when they went with the Broadcom BCM7413 SoC, which was quite an upgrade over the previous TiVo models. An A/V enthusiast wrote a nice overview for the TiVo Premiere, and drilled into the hardware specs. There's still not a lot of information about the actual codec limits, other than generalities. Also of note, TiVo didn't include in their software the capabilities of supporting other codecs that the hardware can accept, such as DivX or AVS Jizhun (never heard of that one.)

Also, I've been informed that 1080p30 does indeed play on the Premiere, so fps (in this case) isn't the issue. I don't know what normal b-pyramids are, but will do some research to have a better understanding. Maybe the b-pyramids are what's causing the file not to play?

Maybe, maybe not, it's hard to tell without something lucid like rez or fps. But it's good that frame rate isn't the issue since a true 30p would be difficult, and costly to quality, to convert to 24p.

But who cares, and why bother trying to figure out what some numbskull did with those settings? You'd still need to re-encode anyway and it's now only a straightforward encode instead of something complicated like a twisted fps change.

Indeed! I like simplicity! (though some of my Windows scripts and python projects may not exactly appear so )

[off-topic]
I'm not a videophile, and the content I watch is typically for one-time consumption, and not stored/archived/burned. That being said, I'm tolerant of the crap/garbage to an extent. My preference is h264 over XviD/DivX/whatever, which I must be thinking is the best of the worst. So if I can get something to play on my TV through my TiVo, I'm happy with that. As mentioned, I wrote a Window's script that demuxes these mkv files into audio & video files that get remuxed into an mp4 container, so I do put forth some effort to satisfy my consumption. The purpose of this thread was to try to (easily) account for different scenarios that I may come across. But in the end, if I can't get a file to play, I don't have any issues with deleting the file, or setting it aside for the time being to be transcoded into a compatible format later. But... If I were a videophile with the intention of setting up media server, the yes, I'd probably want to do everything in my power to get the most out of any physical media that I owned, and not bother with what may be found on the 'net. But as it is, since it's there, I'll download it. It would still be there if I didn't download it, so I don't lose any sleep over it.
[/off-topic]

Just because a digital asset has infinite turnover doesn't make it any more right to download it. You're still taking something regardless, which is the artist's work for free when he/she should be compensated for their efforts to entertain you. Your logic dictates the similar mindset as one who enters a book store, says I'm only going to take home the book, read it, and give it back (without payment).

If we appear to be snubbing you it's because, to be honest, we get lots of people from the Order of the Unwashed coming in here and on their first (and many times only post) they want to know how to make some MKV they "acquired" play on their blu-ray player.

I'm not being some prude or something, or trying to be some Enforcer of Good, but what gets my goat about these people is not that they're not videophiles, but that they have no interest in video at all, or to learn something - they only pollute the Forum and selfishly waste others' time.

At least you're not like that, but nevertheless, you can expect some coldness from members regarding help with downloaded files of this nature.

I could/should have stepped back for a few moments before posting my off-topic comments, allowing myself to realize that this is a user supported forum, and not an official service bureau. I do greatly appreciate the help that is offered by you and the folks that (continually) share their knowledge and expertise with zero expectation of any monetary compensation. As such, you are absolutely entitled to express your opinion, and absolutely entitled to express: "Bugger off! Go get help from the idiot that encoded that crap!" (and I'm glad you didn't! ), which I would have to accept and move on. Too often threads get derailed into a holy war about ethical and moral ideals, and soon nothing of value is ever contributed, and eventually the thread gets locked by a mod or admin. That was absolutely not my intention. I merely would like to get the most out of my TiVo by finding the limits to what it can do. And along the way, I get to learn more about the ins-and-outs of A/V production.

So again, I thank you!

[orangeboy70]

Well, for what it's worth, I (may have) proven that the TiVo Premiere has a problem with more than 4 ref frames when dealing with 1080p content. Taking a cue from txporter in a TiVo Community Forum post, and jcthorne in a pyTivo forum, I started looking into ref-frames, and came across a notation in an x264 wiki:

If adhering to Level 4.1 specs, the maximum refs for 720p and 1080p video are 9 and 4 respectively.

Since the file I was having trouble with was 1080p encoded with 5 ref frames, it appears the TiVo Premiere strictly adheres to the 4.1 specs, and would not allow successful playback. I re-encoded a small sample using the following which explicitly set refs to 4:

ffmpeg -i 5.min.orig.mp4 -acodec copy -vcodec libx264 -fpre "D:\ffmpeg\libx264-veryfast.ffpreset" -crf 15 -r 29.970 -coder 1 -refs 5 -level 41 -f mp4 -y 5.min.crf15.very.fast.mp4

This played back with no problems on my TiVo.