Can I buy a DVR that will do this?

[GLE3]

Looking for a DVR that has the following:

Dual ATSC / NTSC tuners (I have cable(no box) that has some HD channels, mostly analog. I think I will need NTSC for the analog stations)

A Hard drive to record and playback

The ability to record while watching Live TV

No monthly subscription

Output to my TV’s – HDMI, Component, or VGA inputs. Hope I can find something that playback HD quality.


I heard it may be hard to find anything even close to what I am looking for. I see that most of this standalone DVR stuff was coming out in the 2005 – 2008 years but not many people talking about it now. Willing to go to ebay to get something that is the closest to what I am looking for.

[usually_quiet]

There's nothing close to what you want for recording cable programming in the US. Any set-top device for recording programming in HD from cable requires a subscription of some sort (maybe lifetime for a substantial one-time fee) and possibly CableCARD rental. ATSC is over-the-air and has nothing to do with digital cable. Digital cable uses QAM

For over-the-air ATSC recording Channel Master has this: http://blog.channelmaster.com/2010/01/cm-7000pal-dvr.html and DVico has this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815135007
Otherwise there is this DVD recorder http://www.walmart.com/Magnavox-160GB-DVD-Recorder-Tuner/ip/10104532 which can't record in HD but can record both NTSC and QAM from cable. HD channels can be recorded, but only at SD resolution and it only has one tuner.

[jagabo]

The cable industry has this pretty much sewn up. You have to rent their DVR. You may be able to find a recorder with QAM tuners but they will only record clear (unencrypted) QAM. That will be limited to your local broadcast channels and a few others like CSPAN.

[handyguy]

Build your own: byopvr.com

Or buy a used HD Tivo with lifetime?

[lordsmurf]

The Philips DVDR3575 DVD recorder has ATSC+QAM, a 160GB hard drive, and you can play a disc or off the hard drive, at the same time you're recording to the hard drive.

You can even "chase play" the video being recorded. I often start recording a show, and then go watch it about 15 minutes or more later. I can FF through the commercials, and I usually catch up to the live realtime by the last 5 minutes.

You can buy the Philips 3575 from Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000P76KXY?ie=UTF8&tag=thdifa-20&linkCode=as2&camp=17...SIN=B000P76KXY
Or the Philips 3576 (almost identical model): http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0013WM0BQ?ie=UTF8&tag=thdifa-20&linkCode=as2&camp=17...SIN=B0013WM0BQ

There's nothing "brand new in stores" -- don't bother even looking, it doesn't exist.
The closet thing that was ever made was this exact Philips unit.

The Magnavox H2160MW9 is a near-clone of the Philips: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0020ZW8P8?ie=UTF8&tag=thdifa-20&linkCode=as2&camp=17...SIN=B0020ZW8P8
If you insist on "brand new, never been owned", then this is your only option. Amazon is one of the only places left where you can buy this model new. The only major difference is that the Magnavox doesn't play XVID like the Philips does.

I have a 3575, and am quite fond of it.

The only thing missing from your wish list is the dual tuner. I'm not aware of any DVD recorders with dual tuners.

Also note that the QAM will only tune the unencrypted channels: locals, music, public access, few other random things (G4 and VH-1, in my case). Comcast apparently offers unencrypted QAM on all basic channels in some areas. There's no way for a DVD recorder to record directly from encrypted channels where you need the cable box -- you have to use the cable box between the recorder and the wire coming out of the wall.

[jagabo]

Even if you build your own HTPC you will need a cablecard based capture device to capture encrypted QAM:

http://www.amd.com/us/products/pctv/tv-wonder-tuners/Pages/digital-cable-tuner.aspx

Then pray that your cable company really supports it. They will still charge you a monthly fee for the cablecard. If you're lucky it will only be a few dollars. If not, it will cost as much as renting a digital cable box.

[jman98]

I have a PCI card that supposedly can record unecrypted QAM and I'm a Comcast customer. I could never get it to pick up anything from my cable, so I gave up and ended up finding a better solution involving recording directly from my cable box. It's been a few years since I tried, but reports at the time were from all over the country that in some places Comcast had accidentally encrypted EVERYTHING. They aren't supposed to do that and it's probably truly an error of incompetence, but it shows you that it can happen.

I have cablecard on my TV. Cable companies don't like it and don't like to admit that they can support it. Plus add to that the fact that most cable company employees are complete and utter morons and you can easily have situations where a customer calls and asks for a cable card and the company actually supports it, but the idiot who answered the phone knows nothing about it. Few customers ask for it, so I can understand how some employees may honestly just have never heard of it. If you decide to go with some method that requires cablecard, be insistent when talking to your cable company about it and ask to speak to a manager if you can't get anywhere with the person on the phone.

[mp3superfreak]

This same question came up on a recent Tekzilla show. They had a few suggestions, one being:

http://www.dtvpal.com/

The unit is $299 and available at Sears.com in the US. (OTA HD DVR, dual ATSC tuners, no subscriptions, Hard Drive, mfg'd by Ecostar)

You can see the other suggestions at tekzilla.com

EDIT: My apologies....I thought you were looking for an OTA recorder, not cable. I retract my suggestion...

[GLE3]

Thanks for the ATSC / QAM info. Charter is my cable provider and right now they are giving me all the locals plus ESPN, ESPN2, TBS, and TNT in HD. That would make up most of the channels I want to record from so I guess I’m not looking into getting the encrypted stuff. I may just end up getting a HD box from them if I want more HD.
It sounds like if I do get something standalone, I will be stuck with these choices:

A DVR with one NTSC/QAM tuner where I won’t be able to watch live TV and record at the same time.
-Magnavox, Phillips, Polaroid

A DVD recorder(no hard drive) with a NTSC/QAM tuner where I won’t be able to watch live TV and record at the same time.
-Panasonic(they don’t advertise QAM, but I guess they have that ability), JVC, Toshiba, Samsung
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-e2r8pk028Uc/p_052DVR670/Toshiba-DVR670.html
http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/474092448?v_c=CI&srccode=cii_6580890&c...ode=12-6208423
http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-DMR-EZ17S-Recorder-Tuner-Silver/dp/B000O3N74E
http://www.walmart.com/ip/JVC-DRMV150B-DVD-VCR-Recorder-Combo-ATSC-QAM-tuner-1080p-HDM...i_sku=10998507

Or… pay for TIVO….

Other assumptions/questions:
Will the tuner show HD programming in HD while just viewing through the tuner? I hear when actually capturing most of these things will downgrade to NTSC then upconvert to display.
Are all these tuners created equal? Can one get QAM in better than another? I hear some people say their TV gets QAM in better than the DVR/DVD recorder…

[edDV]

Thanks for the ATSC / QAM info. Charter is my cable provider and right now they are giving me all the locals plus ESPN, ESPN2, TBS, and TNT in HD. That would make up most of the channels I want to record from so I guess I’m not looking into getting the encrypted stuff. I may just end up getting a HD box from them if I want more HD.…

I'm not quite following. Are you watching these HD channels on an HDTV QAM tuner? If so and if that is all the channels you want then an HTPC with one tuner will allow you to record one channel while watching another on the TV using the TV's QAM tuner. Just split the incoming cable to the TV and HTPC.

Any DVD recorder solution will be restricted to SD recording. I'm not aware of any QAM tuner equipped DVD recorder that passes HD to the output. They all downscale to SD.

[edDV]

...
Other assumptions/questions:
Will the tuner show HD programming in HD while just viewing through the tuner? I hear when actually capturing most of these things will downgrade to NTSC then upconvert to display.
Are all these tuners created equal? Can one get QAM in better than another? I hear some people say their TV gets QAM in better than the DVR/DVD recorder…

An HTPC QAM tuner will pass the HD stream to your display card. Since demodulated QAM is an MPeg2 program stream, it needs to be realtime decoded in software and/or display card hardware before it will output in HD. Best to get a modern display card with HDMI out (video+audio) and hardware decoding for MPeg2 and h.264. That takes the decode load off the CPU.

QAM tuners do vary but if your cable signal strength is good, most tuners will get the unencrypted channels but the method of numbering channels may differ vs. the TV QAM tuner. Buy current generation tuners, not something used unless it is current generation.

As said above, DVD recorder QAM tuners only pass SD. Some force letterbox, others allow anamorphic wide recording.

[GLE3]

Thanks for the ATSC / QAM info. Charter is my cable provider and right now they are giving me all the locals plus ESPN, ESPN2, TBS, and TNT in HD. That would make up most of the channels I want to record from so I guess I’m not looking into getting the encrypted stuff. I may just end up getting a HD box from them if I want more HD.…

I'm not quite following. Are you watching these HD channels on an HDTV QAM tuner? If so and if that is all the channels you want then an HTPC with one tuner will allow you to record one channel while watching another on the TV using the TV's QAM tuner. Just split the incoming cable to the TV and HTPC.

Good point, and I can understand your confusion. See, what I have is a TV that can handle QAM/ATSC/NTSC but it only comes through one RF. What I really want to set up is to have each on it’s own RF. If I had something with dual tuners I could connect the DVR with OTA and cable, and watch cable while either were recording.
Since it sounds like I can only have two tuners I’ll connect cable to the DVR, and save my TV’s tuner for OTA. Or…I buy TIVO or make my own HTPC…
I know I can get around this type of set up with an AB switch, but I’m not interested in getting up to switch it back and forth. J

[edDV]

Dual tuner (internal) DVR's usually share a single RF input. You would need an HTPC with multiple tuners.

You could also find an RF A/B switch with remote control.

[usually_quiet]

Good point, and I can understand your confusion. See, what I have is a TV that can handle QAM/ATSC/NTSC but it only comes through one RF. What I really want to set up is to have each on it’s own RF. If I had something with dual tuners I could connect the DVR with OTA and cable, and watch cable while either were recording.
Since it sounds like I can only have two tuners I’ll connect cable to the DVR, and save my TV’s tuner for OTA. Or…I buy TIVO or make my own HTPC…
I know I can get around this type of set up with an AB switch, but I’m not interested in getting up to switch it back and forth. J

If you want to record using your PC, I have been looking at the Diamond ATI TV Wonder HD 650 Combo PCI-E NTSC/ATSC/Clear QAM TV tuner card. It has 1 RF input for FM radio/NTSC and 1 RF input for ATSC/QAM. Both RF inputs can be used at the same time. Based on user reviews, it seems like a decent card for Windows 7 users with a system that meets the card's hardware requirements. XP and Vista users experience more difficulties, particularly when it comes to QAM channels, but that 's going to be true for other TV tuner cards too.

If you go the HTPC route, you should get second HDD for recording too. It helps if the OS and the recordings are on different drives, plus HD recordings can use up HDD space at the rate of 7 GB per hour.

[edDV]

Many of the PC HD tuner cards have separate inputs for NTSC/FM and ATSC/QAM. I think GLE3 wants separate inputs for ATSC and QAM.

[usually_quiet]

Many of the PC HD tuner cards have separate inputs for NTSC/FM and ATSC/QAM. I think GLE3 wants separate inputs for ATSC and QAM.

I wasn't sure what GLE3 wanted. If you are right, then 2 cards would be needed. All the current TV cards with 2 digital tuners have a single RF input feeding both tuners.

[Verify]

Currently available from: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Magnavox-160GB-DVD-Recorder-Tuner/10104532 $227
Searched manual found no mention of QAM

[usually_quiet]

Currently available from: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Magnavox-160GB-DVD-Recorder-Tuner/10104532 $227
Searched manual found no mention of QAM

There is an extensive thread at the AVS Forums that documents the features of that recorder in detail. Much of it is based on user experience. See http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=940657 It has an NTSC/ATSC/QAM tuner.

[GLE3]

If I can get it to work I would be happy with the following..

Tuner one(that I can capture from) I get QAM and NTSC(What I get through my cable company now)

Tuner two(that I can capture from) I get ATSC over the air(I really dont get alot of HD channels but a few more than cable).

Tuner 3(my TV) I would like to have QAM and NTSC(from cable company) split from the feed before the connection to Tuner one. I can use this tuner to watch while I am recording.

It sounds like this might not be possible with out buying two independent tuners......


Keeping NTSC / QAM on my TV's tuner is a must(as it is the best tuner I will probably have for QAM). But I want to be able to record NTSC / ATSC / QAM while still watching live TV.

[edDV]

And you are OK recording SD? Then you need two DVD recorders or one with a A/B switch.

If you want HD recording, you need a HTPC with one tuner +A/B switch or two tuners.

Note that each PC tuner has 3 inputs that can be separately selected in the PVR software.

1. RF Digital ATSC/QAM (HD/SD capable)
2. RF Analog NTSC/FM (SD only)
3. Baseband composite/S-Video (SD only)

[usually_quiet]

If you don't mind recording in SD, then either a Philips or Magnavox HDD DVD recorder would be the easier path.

Setting up an HTPC requires more effort. You will need to research the hardware and software choices available to you and it may not be an inexpensive solution, depending on what you need to purchase.

Most people dislike the software that comes with their tuner. There are pay and free software packages from 3rd parties available, but not all tuners will be supported.

I have read many favorable reviews from people using Windows 7's Media Center. It has decent PVR functionality and it is relatively easy to install and set up tuners that have Windows 7 drivers. It has better support for QAM than Vista's Media Center. On the other hand, it uses a proprietary file format for storing recordings, which requires some effort to convert, if you want to use something else to play back recordings. Unfortunately, the Windows 7 OS itself apparently has a troubling issue with TV tuners in general, though it doen't happen to everyone. Sometimes it forgets a TV tuner is installed, generally after emerging from sleep mode. Hopefully, it will be fixed soon.