Getting into VCD authoring: A confused Newbie at the gates o

[PigOnWing]

Hello all,

First, a warning: As stated in the subject, I'm a total newbie when it comes to VCD authoring, have sofar authored only the simplest VCDs using Nero, and thus some of my questions may have already been exhumed in this forum in the past.

My interest in 'a little bit more than Nero can do' started when I needed what's one of the most talked about issues here: Chapters.

I gather from past posts around here, that the only programs which allow true Chapters are VideoPack 4 for VCD, I-Author for SVCD and VCDImager for both.

Well, I tried I-Author and it gave me a heavy headache after the first glance, so I crossed that out. With VideoPack, I think I might, eventually, figure it out - even if I'll need to play around quite a lot in order to do so - but if I'm going to learn a program which doesn't seem too intuitive to me, at first glance, then I might just as well learn one which is even consider by the 'greater public' as less intuitive, but much more flexible.

Back at the days of PKUnzip, ARJ, POV and other command-line utilities of the day, I used to learn their complete manuals and pretty much mastered the necessary tweaks. I figured out that learning such a program like VCDImager will simply take me back to these days, been there, done that, can't be worse.
Going through the manual showed me that during the past 10 years, I have either lost my talent of figuring these things out, got very, very, very spoiled by GUIs, or both.

Hence, I would, eventually, much appreciate your help.

Ok, specific questions:

1. Are there templates for VCDImager-oriented XML files? I've downloaded the VCD demo image made by vitalis and am trying to analyze its XML structure, but knwoing nothing abotu XML or 'simpler' VCDImager XML files seem to give a hard time to my grey cells...
   
2. Incidentally, might anyone be so bold as to tell me or point me to a reference to the simplest, most basic description ond concepts of XML? Not an XML tutorial, but just the concepts; same as I know enough about HTML to know how it is [i] structured [I] but not enough to master a document on my own.
   
3. About Chapters: I understand the way to do these, are 'entrypoints'. Some have said that they have a limitation that when skipping (with the 'Next' and 'Previous' buttons), they skip to the next and previous entrypoints relative to the entrypoint last 'pointed', as opposed to the relative entrypoint to the current played time (do I make any sense here?). Furthermore, they stated that upon seeing, for example, the a movie from start to end, it will still jump to the second entrypoint.
   
   Has a way around this been found? I think I've seen a glimpse of something someone (vitalis?) wrote, about defining for each 'entrypoint' the functions of the 'Previous' and 'Next' buttons - does that have to to do with it?
   
   Also, I've seen a notice from vitalis, in the Demo VCD Readme file, that it's been noted that the entry points were actually not done in the porper way - what is, then, the proper way, and what was, exactly the difference? I'll have to admit, actually, that within the segment that used entrypoints on the Demo VCD (The South Park trailer), pressing 'Next' and 'Previous'... actually did nothing. Might that have to do with the note, about the 'improper' method used here?...
   
4. A thought came to mind, after thinking again over vitalis' original suggested method, that started all this debate - the Cue-file editing thingy (A method already acknowledged that is non-standard, and is, actually, inserting physical tracks on the CD, hence somewhat 'breaking' the MPG stream).
   
   This method, was supposed to work, if at all, only when PBC mode is turned off (incidentally, vitalis said to use vcd1.1, which simply doesn't have PBC at all).
   Does that mean, that if creating a 'properly chaptered' VCD, with entrypoints, then by playing it without PBC mode, it will actually behave as a one-chaptered VCD, with the 'Next' and 'Previous' button having no effect at all? If so, does vcd1.1 allow chaptering, in a certain method? Does anyone know how it's achieved in that case?
   

I hope I didn't raise too many issued which were already debated here. I thank all forum members who'd be willing to help, as I thank forum members whose knowledge and responses to past threads have already helped me a great deal - special thanks goes to hvr, which I personally commit to figuring out how to use his program , and to vitalis, whose patience seem never to cease. I've seen him answering the same question again and again and again and again to different people who all pretty much ask a same, old, exhausted question which was already answered a thousand times even within a certain thread, seeming as if they either read only an original message of a thread without following up a development, or just reading a random message along the way, and vitalis still answers, patiently, and guides them along.

On one hand, I know that I, in his place, would have gone nuts over this ages ago. On the other hand, I fear that this very message might include such subjects.


-- Piggie

[RFontenot]

Add to your list of programs which do true chapters, the Philips Video CD 2.0 Toolkit. Unfortunately, it has an easy to use drag and drop GUI and doesn't require any programming knowledge, so it may not be what you are looking for.

[vitualis]

Before everyone is carried away by the Philips Video CD toolkit, let me remind you all that it is OLD, OLD, OLD. As yet, the only reports I've heard of it is people having difficulty getting MPEG files to be accepted by the proggy.

Also, this proggy is not freeware, is not open source, and is no longer being worked on.

Furthermore, it creates the CD disc image in a format that is no longer used by the main CD burning proggies...

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
Are there templates for VCDImager-oriented XML files? I've downloaded the VCD demo image made by vitalis and am trying to analyze its XML structure, but knwoing nothing abotu XML or 'simpler' VCDImager XML files seem to give a hard time to my grey cells...</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

Use VCDXGEN to create your own simple XML files and have a look at how they work. If you go to the XML repository in the VCDImager website, you can download some more example XML files to look at (varying in complexity).

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>Incidentally, might anyone be so bold as to tell me or point me to a reference to the simplest, most basic description ond concepts of XML? Not an XML tutorial, but just the concepts; same as I know enough about HTML to know how it is [i] structured [I] but not enough to master a document on my own.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

I knew nothing about XML when I first picked up VCDImager 0.7.x but was able to quickly master it in a matter of minutes. The syntax of XML is VERY similar to HTML and as long as you have a few example to follow by, you shouldn't have too much of a problem.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>About Chapters: I understand the way to do these, are 'entrypoints'. Some have said that they have a limitation that when skipping (with the 'Next' and 'Previous' buttons), they skip to the next and previous entrypoints relative to the entrypoint last 'pointed', as opposed to the relative entrypoint to the current played time (do I make any sense here?). Furthermore, they stated that upon seeing, for example, the a movie from start to end, it will still jump to the second entrypoint.

Has a way around this been found? I think I've seen a glimpse of something someone (vitalis?) wrote, about defining for each 'entrypoint' the functions of the 'Previous' and 'Next' buttons - does that have to to do with it?</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

You are correct. The "next" and "prev" thing can't really be fixed with how VCD2.0 works. However, in terms playing to the end and then going to the second entrypoint, there IS a easy way around this. Take a look at the "chapters- entrypoint" section of the XML of the demoVCD. You will note that these "chapters" use "selection items" rather than "playlist items". In doing so, I have the extra option of "timeout". Thus, when the end of the movie is reached, it doesn't go to the next chapter (i.e., chapter2), but rather "timeouts" to the ending animation (or the main menu).

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>Also, I've seen a notice from vitalis, in the Demo VCD Readme file, that it's been noted that the entry points were actually not done in the porper way - what is, then, the proper way, and what was, exactly the difference? I'll have to admit, actually, that within the segment that used entrypoints on the Demo VCD (The South Park trailer), pressing 'Next' and 'Previous'... actually did nothing. Might that have to do with the note, about the 'improper' method used here?...</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

How the XML is authored for the chapter entries is actually CORRECT. What is incorrect is that I also had "autopause" settings defined for the south park trailer. This is a separate issue that muddled with the entrypoints example.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>...This method, was supposed to work, if at all, only when PBC mode is turned off (incidentally, vitalis said to use vcd1.1, which simply doesn't have PBC at all).
Does that mean, that if creating a 'properly chaptered' VCD, with entrypoints, then by playing it without PBC mode, it will actually behave as a one-chaptered VCD, with the 'Next' and 'Previous' button having no effect at all? If so, does vcd1.1 allow chaptering, in a certain method? Does anyone know how it's achieved in that case?</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

The answer is "maybe". The problem with entrypoints and VCD1.1 (I think) is that not all hardware interpret them in the same way/properly and you may end up with a disc where the "next" and "prev" functions don't work at all.

The truth I think is that "chaptering" for standard VCDs and SVCDs is not a perfectly designed system. The way "chapters" are designed on a DVD are much more sensible and work intuitively as they should.

Good luck on working with VCDImager. Although it does take some time to work out your own way of efficiently editing the XML, it is definitely worth it. Now that I've created a handful of representative XML files, creating a new one usually is no more than some cut and paste (and some judicious editing of course). Naming most of your source files in a systematic and consistent way (between projects) obviously helps!

Regards.

[vitualis]

Sorry, but I mis-read your last point...

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-07-09 13:52:59, PigOnWing wrote:
...This method, was supposed to work, if at all, only when PBC mode is turned off (incidentally, vitalis said to use vcd1.1, which simply doesn't have PBC at all).
Does that mean, that if creating a 'properly chaptered' VCD, with entrypoints, then by playing it without PBC mode, it will actually behave as a one-chaptered VCD, with the 'Next' and 'Previous' button having no effect at all? If so, does vcd1.1 allow chaptering, in a certain method? Does anyone know how it's achieved in that case?
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm of the impression that if a VCD2.0 is played with PBC turned off, the entrypoints won't work at all as you are specifically telling the player to ignore the first logical track.

I'm not too sure of this (I think hvr would know), but I believe that entrypoints can be used in VCD1.1 as well. In doing this, the "next" and "prev" buttons SHOULD go the the next and previous entrypoints as definted in the entries file (actually, as defined in the data in the physical sectors that the entries file points to). What I wrote in my previous post about not all hardware interpreting this correct, etc., was referring to this. Some players may follow this scheme. Others may only go to next and previous tracks.

Regards.

[PigOnWing]

Hi vitalis et al,

First, thanks for the insight. I've done some more studying of the VCDImager manual and examples... more to follow.

As far as the Philips Video CD toolkit goes... well, as been stated, it is a commercial product, it isn't supported, and it is difficult to find software that will burn its images. That's one of the reasons I ruled out VideoPack 4 so early. I guess it's the Bleeding Edge of XML structure for me, then.

Now to vitalis' post:

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
Are there templates for VCDImager-oriented XML files? [...]</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

Use VCDXGEN to create your own simple XML files and have a look at how they work. If you go to the XML repository in the VCDImager website, you can download some more example XML files to look at (varying in complexity).
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

Yup, I went, downloaded, printed and am browsing through these examples. They're of immense help.

However, I'm still wondering if there's some reference to basic XML concepts. I'll try to explain what I mean:
I know that the concept of XML, is to have actually less official tags than HTML, and to have a 'per-case' tags defined from within each document. What I'd like to know is, whic of the tags used by these VCDImager XML files are such defined tags, which are 'official', which are 'VCDImager propriety', etc. Just to understand the structure.

Of course, I could specualte, from analyzing these XML, I'll simply be more assurant of myself if I'll have some basic reference.


Now, to interesting stuff:

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>About Chapters: I understand the way to do these, are 'entrypoints'. [...] they have a limitation that when skipping [...] they skip to the [absolute] next and previous entrypoints [...] as opposed to the relative entrypoint to the current played time (do I make any sense here?). Furthermore, they stated that upon seeing, for example, the a movie from start to end, it will still jump to the second entrypoint.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

You are correct. The "next" and "prev" thing can't really be fixed with how VCD2.0 works. However, in terms playing to the end and then going to the second entrypoint, there IS a easy way around this. Take a look at the "chapters- entrypoint" section of the XML of the demoVCD. You will note that these "chapters" use "selection items" rather than "playlist items". In doing so, I have the extra option of "timeout". Thus, when the end of the movie is reached, it doesn't go to the next chapter (i.e., chapter2), but rather "timeouts" to the ending animation (or the main menu).</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

Hm. Interesting, I'll have to look into that - but first, I guess I'll have to look into what's the definition and difference between "selection items" and "playlist items" and what each is used for. I'm not quite too sure about that yet.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>Also, I've seen a notice from vitalis, in the Demo VCD Readme file, that it's been noted that the entry points were actually not done in the porper way [...] I'll have to admit, actually, that within the segment that used entrypoints on the Demo VCD (The South Park trailer), pressing 'Next' and 'Previous'... actually did nothing. [...] </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

How the XML is authored for the chapter entries is actually CORRECT. What is incorrect is that I also had "autopause" settings defined for the south park trailer. This is a separate issue that muddled with the entrypoints example.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

Hm. Strange, as the autopause thingy did work... What didn't work, is browsing thorugh the chapters with the 'next' and 'previous' button. I could only access the entrypoints from the menu (then I had only sound, due to the MPEG encodign problem already noted, but that's a different story).
This might have to do with my player, though. More on that later.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>...This method [The divide-to-track method -- Piggie], was supposed to work, if at all, only when PBC mode is turned off (incidentally, vitalis said to use vcd1.1, which simply doesn't have PBC at all).
Does that mean, that if creating a 'properly chaptered' VCD, with entrypoints, then by playing it without PBC mode, it will actually behave as a one-chaptered VCD, with the 'Next' and 'Previous' button having no effect at all? If so, does vcd1.1 allow chaptering, in a certain method? Does anyone know how it's achieved in that case?</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

The answer is "maybe". The problem with entrypoints and VCD1.1 (I think) is that not all hardware interpret them in the same way/properly and you may end up with a disc where the "next" and "prev" functions don't work at all.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

OK, here comes some more information I tried to dig up, and some of my experience in the past 24 hours (I actually wrote a reply 24 hours ago, which was lost due to me forgetting to type the !@#$% password upon submitting, then I was too fristrated to start it all over again immediatley.)

One of the XML files in the XML repository (the second one, I think), is actually a rip of a chaptered vcd1.1
Meaning, this thing *is* possible. I assume, even, that if hvr ripped such a vcd to VCDImager xml structure, he also tested it and recreation of the VCD was successful.

Other then that, I also remember a post by Harry Dodgson, in which he states -

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>I have a Pink Floyd VCD (from eurekamovies.com, thank you!)
It thinks it is VCD 1.1 and has nice seamless chapters.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

And in another post, he states -

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>I used VCDImager 0.7.4 to try and recreate my Pink Floyd VCD (which has working seamless chapters). I used CDRWIN to create the .bin file and then ripped it to get the all the files and create the XML. Then I built it back to a bin/cue file and used cdrdao to write it. The end result - no chapters on the DVD player </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

So analyzing it with VCDXRIP missed something here. Moreover, the original post (the anoe above), also stated -

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>I extracted it with VCDgear. I rewrote it with VCDImager. </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

...And no notes about anything unsuccessful followd.
Does that mean that VCDImager was able to do something that VCDXGEN or VCDXRIP missed?...

This point, maybe the structure of that very VCD, is of particular interest, as it may be the key to 'more standard chaptering' of VCDs. As I mentioned before, the South Park trailer entry points did not show up as chapters, neither in my DVD player (standalone) or in PowerDVD.

I have just played a bit with VCDXGEN and created my first VCD with VCDImager (actually much simpler than I feared ) - I decided to go for the simplest, for now, and use vcd1.1 with no PBC. I did the entrypoints, all seemed to be well, but it yielded the same results as with the South Park trailer on vitalis' demo cd: No chapters. Not on the standalone DVD player, not in PowerDVD. I would like to try another DVD-Software beside PowerDVD (any recommendations?) in order to see what's going on there.



Hm... I know I had more issues, yesterday... Oh well. Some lost, some will have to wait.

Thanks for your help and patience.

-- Piggie


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: PigOnWing on 2001-07-11 07:48:17 ]</font>

[vitualis]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-07-11 07:45:31, PigOnWing wrote:
However, I'm still wondering if there's some reference to basic XML concepts. I'll try to explain what I mean:
I know that the concept of XML, is to have actually less official tags than HTML, and to have a 'per-case' tags defined from within each document. What I'd like to know is, whic of the tags used by these VCDImager XML files are such defined tags, which are 'official', which are 'VCDImager propriety', etc. Just to understand the structure.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

As I stated before I knew nothing about XML before I started so I know little of the theoretical background of XML. A few members here know much more on the topic and perhaps they could help you (posting another thread may yield more results...)

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>Hm. Strange, as the autopause thingy did work... What didn't work, is browsing thorugh the chapters with the 'next' and 'previous' button. I could only access the entrypoints from the menu (then I had only sound, due to the MPEG encodign problem already noted, but that's a different story).
This might have to do with my player, though. More on that later.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

I can attest that the entrypoints (at least the specific XML refering to it) DOES work. Unfortunately, there are a number of other issues confusing it. Firstly, the autopause setting (which is interpreted differently by different players in that specific context) and the lack of mpeg sequence headers.

My advice is to make sure that the source track has its mpeg sequence headers inserted and APS relaxed option is set off (which is the default), and to make sure NO autopause settings are defined for a sequence item with entrypoints defined.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>This point, maybe the structure of that very VCD, is of particular interest, as it may be the key to 'more standard chaptering' of VCDs. As I mentioned before, the South Park trailer entry points did not show up as chapters, neither in my DVD player (standalone) or in PowerDVD. </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

Actually, after a lot of thinking and experimenting, I believe that using the selection item method for each entrypoint IS the best way. This is unfortunately not reflected in the demo VCD due to the other confounding issues.

The entrypoints do work on PowerDVD (v2.55) on my PC though... (but the autopause doesn't).

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>I have just played a bit with VCDXGEN and created my first VCD with VCDImager (actually much simpler than I feared ) - I decided to go for the simplest, for now, and use vcd1.1 with no PBC. I did the entrypoints, all seemed to be well, but it yielded the same results as with the South Park trailer on vitalis' demo cd: No chapters. Not on the standalone DVD player, not in PowerDVD. I would like to try another DVD-Software beside PowerDVD (any recommendations?) in order to see what's going on there.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

If you could post your XML, it would be instructive... Actually, it would be good if you could post a log file of what VCDXBUILD outputted during the build as well... If you put in entrypoints but there aren't regular mpeg sequence headers, VCDXBUILD can't define where they should be placed. As the onscreen output flys by quite quickly, you may have missed the warning messages. To output what VCDXBUILD says to a text file, do the following:

vcdxbuild -v -c test.cue -b test.bin test.xml > log.txt

Regards.

[PigOnWing]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
However, I'm still wondering if there's some reference to basic XML concepts. [...]</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

As I stated before I knew nothing about XML before I started so I know little of the theoretical background of XML. A few members here know much more on the topic and perhaps they could help you (posting another thread may yield more results...)
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, I figured out that my subject line is pretty ambigous... But still being a newbie, and trying to cover several different issues in a long post, I figured out that until I set some background to myself, I won't like to clutter the forum too much.
It will come, eventually, though.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>Hm. Strange, as the autopause thingy did work... What didn't work, is browsing thorugh the chapters with the 'next' and 'previous' button. I could only access the entrypoints from the menu. [...]
This might have to do with my player, though. More on that later.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

I can attest that the entrypoints (at least the specific XML refering to it) DOES work. Unfortunately, there are a number of other issues confusing it. Firstly, the autopause setting (which is interpreted differently by different players in that specific context) and the lack of mpeg sequence headers.

My advice is to make sure that the source track has its mpeg sequence headers inserted and APS relaxed option is set off (which is the default), and to make sure NO autopause settings are defined for a sequence item with entrypoints defined.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm afraid you got me there: I still don't know much about MPEG headers and their role.

And I'm still not sure about the autopause thing: at the risk of asking something that's probably been explained in the forum in the past, could you explain me how does autopause interfere with entrypoints?


<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>This point, maybe the structure of that very VCD, is of particular interest, as it may be the key to 'more standard chaptering' of VCDs. As I mentioned before, the South Park trailer entry points did not show up as chapters, neither in my DVD player (standalone) or in PowerDVD. </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

Actually, after a lot of thinking and experimenting, I believe that using the selection item method for each entrypoint IS the best way. This is unfortunately not reflected in the demo VCD due to the other confounding issues.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

OK, I'm confused. I think I need to understand:
1. What are playlist items and what are they used for?
2. What are selection items and what are they used for?
3. What are the differences?

I think I'm a bit lost here.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
The entrypoints do work on PowerDVD (v2.55) on my PC though... (but the autopause doesn't).</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

PowerDVD 3.0 here. Entrypoints (that is, previous/next buttons) do not work on the SouthPark trailer. It shows up as one single chatper. Brr?

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>I have just played a bit with VCDXGEN and created my first [...] vcd1.1 with no PBC. I did the entrypoints, all seemed to be well, but [...] No chapters. Not on the standalone DVD player, not in PowerDVD. [...]</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

If you could post your XML, it would be instructive... [...]</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

Gladly, gladly, gladly, gladly!
I was wondering if I may be so bold as to ask for such a thing.

Here goes:
The XML file used to create the VCD:

Note by Piggie: Originally, I included the XML text here, but seems some of it is interpreted as HTML (logical) and renders it unreadable. How should I go about posting the XML portion, then, please? Anyone?

...And the log file:
<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Code:</font><HR ></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><PRE>
++ WARN: initializing libvcd 0.7.7 [cygwin/i586]
++ WARN:
++ WARN: this is the UNSTABLE development branch!
++ WARN: use only if you know what you are doing
++ WARN: see http://www.hvrlab.org/~hvr/vcdimager/ for more information
++ WARN:
--DEBUG: changed volume number to 1
--DEBUG: changed volume count to 1
--DEBUG: changed restriction number to 0
--DEBUG: changing 'next volume use sequence 2' to 0
--DEBUG: changing 'next volume use lid 2' to 0
--DEBUG: changing 'autoplay' 1
--DEBUG: changed volume label to `SPEEDY_TEST'
--DEBUG: sequence count 1
--DEBUG: adding sequence #0, G:\Cartoons - Warner Brothers\Tweety - Sylvester - 482 MB - Need 168 MB (About 2 Toons)\1965 - Cats and Bruises (Sylvester, Speedy).mpg
INFO: scanning mpeg sequence item #0 for scanpoints...
--DEBUG: pts start offset 0.059711 (max pts = 402.19477
--DEBUG: playing time 402.135067
--DEBUG: track# 0's detected playing time: 402.14 seconds
--DEBUG: pbc: psd size 0 (extended psd 0)
--DEBUG: iso9660: highest alloced sector is 224 (using 300 as isosize)
--DEBUG: requested entry point at 15.500000, closest possible entry point at 15.615600
--DEBUG: requested entry point at 35.250000, closest possible entry point at 35.235200
--DEBUG: requested entry point at 176.000000, closest possible entry point at 176.176000
--DEBUG: requested entry point at 219.500000, closest possible entry point at 219.419200
--DEBUG: requested entry point at 261.500000, closest possible entry point at 261.461200
--DEBUG: requested entry point at 358.000000, closest possible entry point at 357.957600
--DEBUG: requested entry point at 393.500000, closest possible entry point at 393.593200
INFO: writing track 1 (ISO9660)...
INFO: writing track 2, MPEG1, NTSC (352x240/30fps), 1 audio stream...
--DEBUG: MPEG packet statistics: 25152 video, 4939 audio, 0 zero, 0 ogt, 432 unknown
finished ok, image created with 31048 sectors [06:53.73]
</PRE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

...Any sense?

Many, many thanks for going through this.

-- Piggie

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: PigOnWing on 2001-07-12 06:42:05 ]</font>

[vitualis]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-07-12 06:33:41, PigOnWing wrote:
I'm afraid you got me there: I still don't know much about MPEG headers and their role.

And I'm still not sure about the autopause thing: at the risk of asking something that's probably been explained in the forum in the past, could you explain me how does autopause interfere with entrypoints?</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

You may have to look at the original XML file to understand what I'm saying here... Although it may be long and somewhat confusing, it's annotated to help the reader along the way...

Look at the sequence item entry for the south park trailer:

<sequence-item src="seq-sptrailer.mpg" id="seq-sptrailer">
<entry id="ent-sptrailer0">0.00</entry>
<entry id="ent-sptrailer1">30.00</entry>
<entry id="ent-sptrailer2">60.00</entry>
<auto-pause>30</auto-pause>
<auto-pause>60</auto-pause>
</sequence-item>

You'd notice that there are both <entry> settings and <auto-pause> settings.

The autopause settings define where in the specific track (the south park trailer in this instance) for there to be non-user initiated pausing (thus "auto"-pause) -- in this case at the 30 second and 60 second mark.

Now, in the playlist item for the autopause example, it displays how this works:

<playlist id="play-autopause">
<prev ref="select-autopause"/>
<next ref="select-autopause"/>
<return ref="select-autopause"/>
<wait>0</wait>
<autowait>5</autowait>
<play-item ref="seq-sptrailer"/>
</playlist>

See the autowait has the setting of 5 seconds. This means that when the South Park trailer plays to 30 seconds, it will pause for 5 seconds, then continue. The same thing will occur at the 60 second mark.

Now, the problem with the entrypoints example is this:

<selection id="select-entrypoints-0">
<bsn>0</bsn>
<next ref="select-entrypoints-1"/>
<return ref="select-entrypoints"/>
<default ref="select-mainmenu1"/>
<timeout ref="select-entrypoints"/>
<wait>1</wait>
<loop jump-timing="delayed">1</loop>
<play-item ref="ent-sptrailer0"/>
</selection>

Now, this is set as a selection item (i.e., it could be a menu but I've put in no numerical choices). This code is techinically correct. If you analyse it, PREV goes back to the entrypoints menu, NEXT goes to the next entrypoint, RETURN goes to the entrypoints menu, DEFAULT goes to the main menu and when the clip finishes playing, it TIMEOUTS back to the entrypoints menu.

However, you'd notice that difference between this selection item and the previous playlist item is that the selection item DOESN'T support the AUTOWAIT tag. This means, I can't set the AUTOWAIT to ZERO. How your player interprets this is ambigiuous. On my player, it pauses indefinitely at the 30s and 60s mark. On other reports, there's a skip.

How this may confound the NEXT and PREV functions (as appears may be in your case), is that I (stupidly) also set the entrypoints at 30s and 60s. Thus, as soon as it enters the 30s or 60s entrypoint, it may or may not be faced with the autopause point...

This is why I've said that the specific code for the entrypoints is CORRECT. Just make sure you don't set any auto-pause settings for the sequence-item.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>OK, I'm confused. I think I need to understand:
1. What are playlist items and what are they used for?
2. What are selection items and what are they used for?
3. What are the differences?

I think I'm a bit lost here.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

I've given you an example of a playlist and selection in above.

Playlists are used to PLAY either a sequence item (i.e., movie track) or segment item (i.e., still screen). Usually, you use it to play a movie track. They support the PREV, NEXT, RETURN and DEFAULT buttons for interactivity. Also, advanced playlist specific options can be used (e.g., playtime and autowait). When the playlist finishes playing it will automatically go what is defined for the "NEXT" button. You can set a "wait" time for this too.

Selection items are used primarily for menus. The background of this menu can either be a segment item (still) or sequence item (movie). Similarly to above, it supports the PREV, NEXT, RETURN and DEFAULT buttons. Furthermore, it also supports numerical keypress. Selection items also specifically support the "loop" function. The playback of the background can be looped either indefinitely, or from 1 to ? times (not sure of the non-indefinite max limit). This really is only applicable to using movies as the background for the menu (a still should be looped only once). After the background has finished looping, it will wait for the time specified in the "WAIT" tag and then proceed to whatever is defined in the "TIMEOUT" tag.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
PowerDVD 3.0 here. Entrypoints (that is, previous/next buttons) do not work on the SouthPark trailer. It shows up as one single chatper. Brr?</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

It may be the issue I mentioned before with the autopause.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
Note by Piggie: Originally, I included the XML text here, but seems some of it is interpreted as HTML (logical) and renders it unreadable. How should I go about posting the XML portion, then, please? Anyone?</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

You could send it to me via e-mail if you want, but I think I know what the problem is from just the log file.

It appears that you didn't create any playlist or selection items. Download the XML example from the XML repository that has an example on entrypoints and have a look. I may send you an e-mail with an example to...

Regards.

[PigOnWing]

Hmm. I think I still need to dig up a bit more seriously into your last post in order to fully understand playlist items, selection items, and their implementation - but what I also noticed, is that they, actually, should (if I understand correctly) have no relevance here: These concern PBC, and I'm dealing with VCD1.1 - which has no PBC capabilities.

AS a matter of fact, if the XML file sets the vcd version to 1.1 and still includes a <pbc> section, you'll get an error message.

I'm trying to keep it as simple as I can, in order to go step by step: first master what I can do with VCD1.1 and no PCB at all, just entrypoints. Then... we'll see what's next.

So, you're practically right - indeed, I didn't define any playlist items. However, the code does include the section:

<sequence-items>
<sequence-item src="G:\Cartoons - Warner Brothers\Tweety - Sylvester - 482 MB - Need 168 MB (About 2 Toons)\1965 - Cats and Bruises (Sylvester, Speedy).mpg" id="sequence-00">
<entry id="entry-001">15.5</entry>
<entry id="entry-002">35.25</entry>
<entry id="entry-003">176</entry>
<entry id="entry-004">219.5</entry>
<entry id="entry-005">261.5</entry>
<entry id="entry-006">358</entry>
<entry id="entry-007">393.5</entry>
</sequence-item>
</sequence-items>


You're right, there ar only the sequence items, and not a selection item. However, the example from the XML repository - videocd_3.xml - also does not contain any of these, just the sequence items. ANd that's a rip of a chaptered VCD1.1 with no PBC.

So... Er... what am I doing wrong?

-- Piggie

P.S.
And still, tehre were no chapters recognized in the Demo VCD... Hm... Here we're not dealing with a code I did, we're dealing with something that was tested, after all... And it doesn't show up here on PowerDVD 3.0...
Me confused.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: PigOnWing on 2001-07-12 16:04:35 ]</font>

[vitualis]

Okay.

Perhaps you simply have one of those players where additional entrypoints on VCD1.1 doesn't work.

Entrypoints SHOULD work for VCD2.0 though and this is the better way of doing it. On the demo VCD, in the entrypoints menu, when you choose the 30 second or 60 second option, does it start playing at the 30 second or 60 second mark?

Regards.

[PigOnWing]

When selected from the menu - yes, it does (giving just sound and stopping after a few seconds, but that's due to the encoding problem already acknowledged).

When using the 'Next' and 'Previous' buttons while the South Park trailer runs - nope, it doesn't.

But it's not just on the standalone DVD - it's also in PowerDVD 3.0. Same behaviour (aside from that it does give me picture along with the sound and doesn't stop after a few seconds. )

Same behaviour for the Demo VCD (v2.0 with pbc) and the vcd1.1 I made. 'Next' and 'Previous' doesn't yield anything.

If I could get it to work on some player, hardware or software, I could conclude that my player doesn't recognize it - but sofar, it's both the hardware and software players that gave same results...



-- Piggie

P.S.
What about VCD2.0 with no PBC? Basically, it ought to give the same functionality as VCD1.1, right? Or does a VCD2.0 by definition has PBC, and vice-versa for VCD1.1?

[vitualis]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-07-13 05:58:25, PigOnWing wrote:
When using the 'Next' and 'Previous' buttons while the South Park trailer runs - nope, it doesn't.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

Hmm... that's interesting. It may still be due to the encoding problem...

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>But it's not just on the standalone DVD - it's also in PowerDVD 3.0. Same behaviour (aside from that it does give me picture along with the sound and doesn't stop after a few seconds. )</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

As above. I presume that your player can use the buttons when playing menus with a movie clip background (else you've never reached the sub-menus). The only thing that is different qualitatively between the entrypoints example and the main menu is the thing with the autopause. I believe this is the thing that is stuffing up.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>Same behaviour for the Demo VCD (v2.0 with pbc) and the vcd1.1 I made. 'Next' and 'Previous' doesn't yield anything.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

Have you tried VCD2.0 with PBC using an entrypoints system similar to on the demo VCD? Entrypoints for VCD1.1 don't work on my player either so I don't think that it is a universally accepted thing.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>What about VCD2.0 with no PBC? Basically, it ought to give the same functionality as VCD1.1, right? Or does a VCD2.0 by definition has PBC, and vice-versa for VCD1.1?</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

Don't know. However, I believe VCD2.0 and PBC with entrypoints is the answer... Until you tell me that this doesn't work for you (on your own created VCD), this is what I suggest.

Regards.
[/quote]

[hvr]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
If I could get it to work on some player, hardware or software, I could conclude that my player doesn't recognize it - but sofar, it's both the hardware and software players that gave same results...
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

fyi, philips DVD players have been told to have this behaviour...

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
What about VCD2.0 with no PBC? Basically, it ought to give the same functionality as VCD1.1, right? Or does a VCD2.0 by definition has PBC, and vice-versa for VCD1.1?
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

VCD1.1 does lack PBC by definition

VCD2.0 may have optionally a PBC defined, i.e. VCD2.0 can be created without PBC (same applies for SVCD)