100% way to determine field order for interlaced encoding

[duhmez]

Following will teach you how to determine the field order of your video for interlaced encoding. If the field order is wrong your movie will be jerky and techinically be ruined.

Tools needed: tmpgenc
thanks to the DVDhelp member who originally posted this information. It was posted in the forum in response to a question. I forget the author's nickname , so I hereby shamelessly rob the information therein and post it as a guide.

Selecting the correct field order:
Fire up tmpgenc then do this.
Press the "Settings" button and go to the "Advanced" tab. Under the "Field
order" setting, pick "Top field first (field A)". Highlight the
"DeInterlace" option in the list and double click it to open the DeInterlace
dialog. Select the "Even-Odd field (field)" Method. Left-Click on the video
area and then using the keyboard arrows move to the right to frame-advance
the video. If the motion is smooth, then the field order is correct, if it's
all jumpy then exit the DeInterlace dialog, switch the Field order to
"Bottom field first (field B)", re-enter the DeInterlace dialog and check
that now the movement is smooth. When the correct field order is selected,
make sure that the DeInterlace option is checked OFF! We only use it to
check the field order, it must not be enabled for the final encoding.

[lordsmurf]

This won't always work. Nice try, but not a perfect method by any means.

RESTREAM is normally good at detecting field order, unlike TMPGEnc.

But the only fool-proof way is to test a small clip on a DVD'RW and play on tv.

[lacywest]

For just making Divx videos from ripping DVDs ...

Lots of programs to use ... I know.

The program I found that makes a Divx video without seeing any interlace lines is FairUse 0.30 Beta. Analizes the video stream for best setting.

I used the Divx codec 3.11 and auto four pass mode. Took 6.5 hours to finish encoding. I used Headac3he 0.23a to convert the AC-3 file to a wav file.

I told FairUse I wanted the size to be 680 megs ... after merging the audio with VirtualDub ... it is ..... 680 megs ... sweet !!! Mp3 audio bitrate 160 ... 48 khz.

I know there is FairUse version 0.32.8. I didn't care for the menu on the new version. I was already used to using version 0.30 beta. But FairUse wont rip dvds with LPCM audio. The DVD ... Madonna Immaculate Video Collection uses LPCM audio.

Solution ... record-copy with Panasonic DMR E50 DVD Recorder to get AC-3 audio. I used a VCR friendly Apex DVD player for my source.

[duhmez]

Playing divx without interlacing artifacts is in no way what this post is about. this is about encoding interlaced, which emans youwant those interlacing "artifacts".. just to playback in the right order.

Lordsmurf: Can you post a link for Restream? I've not heard of it and this tmpgenc method has been working GREAT for me.

[SatStorm]

This TMPGenc trick first mentioned by Adam, the summer of 2002.

It works perfect for me since then, I never had to use other methods.

[lacywest]

Playing divx without interlacing artifacts is in no way what this post is about. this is about encoding interlaced, which emans youwant those interlacing "artifacts".. just to playback in the right order.

Lordsmurf: Can you post a link for Restream? I've not heard of it and this tmpgenc method has been working GREAT for me.

http://shh.dvdboard.de/restream.html

[duhmez]

A downside to restram, and a reiteration of this method i posted: restream only works on mpeg files. The method I posted is good for avi files too (captues, huffyuv, mjpeg etc)

[duet]

Hi, I just cannot figure out the field order despite testing out two files (upper/lower) using DVD-R on my standalone Pioneer. I used Canopus ADVC-100 to capture from my DV Cam. I used Adobe Premiere to edit. For the clip's field options, I set to 'reverse field dominance'. I export the files on two format - upper and lower. Play them on TV, they look the same.

I tried to use the method posted by Duhmez. TMPGENC screen turned out black when I tried to playback my source clip.

Any help will be most appreciated. I'm inclined to go 'upper field' but read somewhere that it's usually 'lower field' for ADVC-100 captures. I don't want to do tons of work and having to re-do all over.

Any help will be most appreciated.

thanks.

[fmctm1sw]

I give an "A" for effort but no one will ever change my mind after what I saw avisynth do with the separatefields() and assumetff() commands served into virtualdub....

[adam]

Lordsmurf I don't see why this wouldn't always work. TMPGenc's previews show each field, including what is going to be lost after deinterlace. What you see is what you get. So if one field order is jumpy and the other is not, then obviously the latter is the correct field order setting.

I don't see how TMPGenc could ever give incorrect information, its simply showing you the fields, its up to you to interpret them. TMPGenc is not detecing anything, so unlike something like ReStream, there is no possibility for error. There is absolutely no reason to have to burn a sample disk to determine field order. How is viewing the fields on your tv any different than viewing them on your pc? As long as you are viewing the source at the field level, then you should always be able to make a field order determination.

[mickle]

Might be me, but................

Does TmpgEnc report the field wrongly?

I ask because I know for a fact my captures are lower field first, but using the method in this thread, TmpgEnc shows it to be upper field first.

I actually encode with CCE without any problems by frameserving from MediaStudio Pro using lower field first, but out of curiosity tried out the method of determining field order outlined in this thread. I haven't actually tried an encode with TmpgEnc.

Cheers

Mike

[adam]

Once again, TMPGenc isn't determining or reporting anything. It is simply showing you what the output is going to look like. By selecting the field deinterlace it just makes it easier to see the effect of incorrect field order.

You didn't mention why you know for a fact your field order is bff, or what field order settings you are using in CCE, but this could be explained by the nature of CCE's field order settings. It has none per se, it simply has an option to reverse field order by cropping the first scan line. If you are basing your conclusion about your source's field order on CCE's settings, than it is exactly opposite as you would think. If you need to check tff in CCE to get proper output than your source's field order is actually bff, and if you leave tff unchecked than your source is actually tff.

Try encoding a short sample in TMPGenc. You will find that what you see in the preview is what you get in the encode and thus this little field order test is immediately usable in TMPGenc. As for applying that information to other encoders, well you have to determine whether its terminology matches TMPGenc's, ie: CCE's tff does not equal TMPGenc's Field A as one might think.

[andie41]

Mediastudio uses different designations than many other programs - "Field Order B" in MS = "Top Field First (A)", in TMPGenc.

[mickle]

You didn't mention why you know for a fact your field order is bff, or what field order settings you are using in CCE, but this could be explained by the nature of CCE's field order settings. It has none per se, it simply has an option to reverse field order by cropping the first scan line. If you are basing your conclusion about your source's field order on CCE's settings, than it is exactly opposite as you would think. If you need to check tff in CCE to get proper output than your source's field order is actually bff, and if you leave tff unchecked than your source is actually tff.

Actually knowing for a fact is probably a bit strong. From testing with MSP I find that setting Field Order A results in total re-encoding when outputting back to disc, whereas Field Order B does not. But after reading this....

Mediastudio uses different designations than many other programs - "Field Order B" in MS = "Top Field First (A)", in TMPGenc.

it would explain why TMPGenc suggests it being Top Field First (A).

When I encode using CCE "Upper Field" is unchecked, again suggesting my captures are top field first.

So, all things being equal, I appear to be capturing top field first, and not as I first hought, bottom field first.

Oh well, they say you learn something new every day......

Mike

[depressd]

I just tested my Advc-100 device. It's showing bottom field.

[peco]

Well, I've been testing and verifying my panasonic DMR-E60 "field order"... and, again with this "method" I get the same results!
Well, my Panasonic DMR-E60 records "Top field first (field A)"! I'm thinking that there's must be anything in Panasonic .ifo files (both DVD-RAM and DVD-R (DVD-Video)), that “tells” set top players how to play with the "DVD default" (well, as far as I know; “Bottom field first (field B)” – wasn’t it???).
-- Why it works well When I play a DVD-R recorded on DMR-E60 in another DVD-Player? and, if I do any edit for example, with DVD Shrink or open the VOBs or VRO files in DVD Workshop, DVD Lab, DVD Author and reauthor them, I ended up with an "inverse field order" DVD??? I think no one here wants to spend 6 hours to re-encode a whole DVD only to fix the field order! Am I being so stupid? or perhaps “blind” by not finding here anything about this? … Hey; Is there any post on this subject? Is my VHS players? Is the Panasonic DMR-E60? Is it “normal” to record “field A first” on ALL stand alone recorders??? Did I miss something here??? I’m very confused! I need some help me here!!!

peco.vgfx

[Tfp]

duhmez - Thank you for this tip - very helpful

[lenti_75]

use Procoder and it tells you EVERYTHING about that file.....

this is tooo much work.....

[headless chicken]

I can't tell which version is not jumpy with this method. I've created a sample CD-RW with top and bottom field orders, and with interlaced and non-interlaced encode mode. As far as I can tell, each clip is jumpy so I don't know what to do next. If it makes any difference, I'm encoding from a PAL source for my NTSC player.