Playing T2 Extreme HDTV Edition - a new idea?

[satviewer2000]

As everyone knows, this WMV-HD file is protected by DRM making it impossible to play except on your computer, which in most cases is unplayable as it requires a high spec (3.0+ GHz) computer to be viewable. However, some of us have bought HD-DVD players based on Sigma's new HD capable chip (eg. Avel IO Dataplayer) which can play true HD content.

So the question is, how can one view T2: Extreme Edition HD material on this player. As it stands, this is not possible, as DRM is not cracked so the file cannot be decoded.

However, I wonder if one could "capture" the video file while playing it on your computer into a hi-def video/audio file. Then the "captured" video could be converted into a playable MPEG2 or DivX-HD file?

Anyone have any thoughts on this or how (if) it can be done?

As I own the T2 Extreme Edition DVD, I do not believe this would constitute any form of piracy.

[glockjs]

well the hd dvd player u speak of is bascially designed to upscale a regular dvd. so basically you would be doing alot of extra work just to get the same quality at best

[edDV]

Microsoft told me there would be a player for WMV-HD sometime this year. I've seen no announcement. The player would need some serious decoding hardware.

Also, Sonic has a beta going on for WMV-HD DVD authoring.
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2004/apr04/04-19MSSonicNAB04PR.asp

[Ste]

There was supposed to be one released last year by V, Inc.
The Bravo D3 never saw the light of day though and I never heard of any updates since the press release last January:

http://www.filmandvideomagazine.com/2004/01_jan/news/vinc016.htm

[BJ_M]

i just captured it as HD - yes ..

[satviewer2000]

Thanks for the replies ... but ...

... the Avel IO Linkplayer CAN output in TRUE HIGH DEFINITION 1080i quality. I have several HDTV MPEG2 files that I've stored on my hard drive from DVB source and they play in their original true hi-def (1080i) quality on my Panasonic 1080i projection TV.

This player does not simply "upscale" 480i/p video into the higher resolution (although it can do that as well), it actually does output in true high definition (1080i) quality if the source is available.

I do not want to author my own HD material. I want find a way to watch the T2 Extreme DVD WMV-HD movie on my TV. In fact, many of the IMAX movies are now also coming out in a WMV-HD version, but again, can only be played on the computer.

[satviewer2000]

http://www.iodata.com/products/products.php?cat=HNP&sc=AVEL&pId=AVLP2%2FDVDLA&ts=2&tsc=15

I can tell that not many of you have heard of this new HD player. I know it's hard to believe, but I have one sitting in my family room and it plays and outputs in 1080i.

[BJ_M]

yes -- as i said , i capture it as HD from a PC YUV output ..

I have a HD capture card and a Component to SDI convertor ..

I capture as 10bit Quicktime @ 2:1 compression and then go from there - the quality is the same (well acually better in many respects as i fix the issues with wmv -hd files (i.e. banding, micro-microblocks, and color loss ) ...

i play these back on a dedicated HD server - but you could also re-encode for the I/O , i will get one of those also, or somethign like it - as more such units wil be out soon ..

[satviewer2000]

i just captured it as HD - yes ..

BJ_M ... thanks for the info. Unfortunately, I do not own an component capable capture card. I understand these cards are very very expensive (in the $1000+ range).

Do you know of any other way to do this ... perhaps using capture software on the same computer that is running the WMV-HD file???

[BJ_M]

no -- but you could put together something for about 400-600$ that will work fine for playing it ...

[edDV]

Thanks for the replies ... but ...

...
I do not want to author my own HD material. I want find a way to watch the T2 Extreme DVD WMV-HD movie on my TV. In fact, many of the IMAX movies are now also coming out in a WMV-HD version, but again, can only be played on the computer.

I think you are missing the point.
The issue isn't the ability your player to output 1080i, the issue is decoding the WMV-HD file (ignoring DRM issues) which would take serious dedicated hardware on the player. It tales a 2.4 GHz P4 and accelerated graphics card to do 720p on a PC (>3GHz for 1080p + surround sound).

HDTV DVD players (HD-DVD and Blu-Ray) will have chips capable of decoding Microsoft VC1 (based on wmv) and h.264 for HDTV. http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2004/sep04/09-01BluRayDiscPR.asp
http://www.emedialive.com/Articles/PrintArticle.aspx?ArticleID=8753

There is no guarantee VC1 decoders will allow WMV-HD decodes even though the technology is similar.

Current DVD high end players offer limited support for "non-standard" formats and will be quickly obsoleted when the real HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players arrive. DTV *.TS MPeg2 streams are less compressed than VC1 or h.264 and take less horsepower to decode realtime.

[edDV]

i just captured it as HD - yes ..

BJ_M ... thanks for the info. Unfortunately, I do not own an component capable capture card. I understand these cards are very very expensive (in the $1000+ range).

Do you know of any other way to do this ... perhaps using capture software on the same computer that is running the WMV-HD file???

Ok I missed that you actually owned the AVeL LinkPlayer 2
That player is for playing home made wmv-hd (no DRM), DivxHD, and MPEG2 HD TS stream based capture.

The missing link to affordably capture to a supported file, as you say, is a Y, Pb, Pr capture card. The only way at present is to use broadcast gear to convert Y, Pb, Pr to SDI and then capture the SDI stream to your computer and encode to one of the AVeL LinkPlayer 2 supported formats.

The hardware to do this will cost >> $1000 currently.

I'm sure you are aware you can use some ATI or NVidia graphics cards to output the desktop to a 1080i or 720p component analog output capable of HDTV display.

[BJ_M]

a DeckLink HD card is $595 and a converter is $800

[edDV]

a DeckLink HD card is $595 and a converter is $800

The BlackMagic DeckLink HD is a nice SDI I/O card but the "converter" is the key piece. Have you got any model numbers?

The missing link is a PCI card with Y, Pb, Pr (480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p) inputs that will capture to MPeg2 *.TS, WMV-HD, DivxHD, or h.264. A IEEE-1394 input and hardware encoding would be nice while I'm dreaming.

[BJ_M]

http://www.shootview.com/video_HD.htm#ADC-HD (low cost)

http://www.hotektech.com/KeisokuHSA2D.htm (low cost)

AJA HD10A (not so low cost)


and some others ..

also -- there will soon be a box that takes any sd or hd input (rgb , yuv , y/c, composite and balanced and unbalanced audio) and will stream the output out as uncompressed or compressed 10bit avi to a pc via a firewire 800 link .. that really is the cats ass .. it is also bi-directional, programmable and upgradable and has networking built in and has machine control..



also w/ HDV taking off -- i expect to see some more convertors using the HDV standard (25meg/s 1080i mpeg2)

[satviewer2000]

Actually the new Sigma chip can play WMV-HD files without any difficulty.

I've downloaded all of the WMV-HD trailors from Microsoft's HD site and these files play in true HD on the Avel without missing a beat.

So the problem with T2 WMV-HD is that it is protected by DRM. If it were not protected, it would be playable on the Avel.

[BJ_M]

Actually the new Sigma chip can play WMV-HD files without any difficulty.

I've downloaded all of the WMV-HD trailors from Microsoft's HD site and these files play in true HD on the Avel without missing a beat.

So the problem with T2 WMV-HD is that it is protected by DRM. If it were not protected, it would be playable on the Avel.

that is what was said in the first post - so yes , true /

some of the trailers also have drm ...

[edDV]

Rumor is, when the mass market HD DVD players come out, they will only play HD through HDMI connectors encrypted with HDCP (i.e. not component analog). Although component analog connectors may be on the box, they may be forced into 480p for a copy protected DVD. This is similar to the way the record flag will work on DTV.

Maybe a variation on this rumor is the DVD maker will have a choice which standard is allowed on the component analog output connetors.

Under such an environment, DRM protected WMV-HD may be permitted to play.

[dcsos]

What about copying all the files to a hard drive and DRM'ing it over the network from a location closer to your TELEVISION SET (HD SCREEN)?
I've heard this can be engineered, and I have confirmed you can copy the .WMV files to your hard drive. I think I remembere being able to play the content but that the chapter structure was screwed off the HDD playback.

[edDV]

Actually the new Sigma chip can play WMV-HD files without any difficulty.

I've downloaded all of the WMV-HD trailors from Microsoft's HD site and these files play in true HD on the Avel without missing a beat.

So the problem with T2 WMV-HD is that it is protected by DRM. If it were not protected, it would be playable on the Avel.

Probably this chip for the HD DVD player
http://www.sigmadesigns.com/products/em8620Lseries.htm

They have a good app note for HDMI-HDCP I/O
http://www.sigmadesigns.com/support/DVI_HDMI.htm

[BJ_M]

this tool - which just got posted looks kinda interisiting - though not for wmv use ... but for mpeg2

https://www.videohelp.com/tools?tool=SolveigMM_MPEG-2_Requantizer_Component


it is a directshow filter - i see some possibilties of this ...




http://www.solveigmm.com/files/USG_MPEG2_Requant.pdf

[BJ_M]

Rumor is, when the mass market HD DVD players come out, they will only play HD through HDMI connectors encrypted with HDCP (i.e. not component analog). Although component analog connectors may be on the box, they may be forced into 480p for a copy protected DVD. This is similar to the way the record flag will work on DTV.

Maybe a variation on this rumor is the DVD maker will have a choice which standard is allowed on the component analog output connetors.

Under such an environment, DRM protected WMV-HD may be permitted to play.

sony (and JVC) will not want this -- because they will(are) be pushing using HDV (even at consumer level) , which means burning your own HD-DVD's ... if you cant play them, makes it fairly useless ...

[edDV]

You could play them through the HDMI connector under this scheme even if copy protected.

User created HD DVD's presumably wouldn't have copy protection or record flags so they would play 1080i, etc out both HDMI and component analog outputs. Allowed playback modes are specified during DVD authoring.

[BJ_M]

as a counterpoint only -- not an argument ..

you said before

...........they will only play HD through HDMI connectors encrypted with HDCP

then you said

User created HD DVD's presumably wouldn't have copy protection or record flags so they would play 1080i, etc out both HDMI

THEREFORE -- both statements can't be true ....

but assuming that COMMERCIAL HD has HDCP and home does not -- THEN IF HDCP is removed from COMMERCIAL HD and a back up is made - that back up WILL PLAY , as it is no different than a home made HD video ..

[edDV]

as a counterpoint only -- not an argument ..

you said before

...........they will only play HD through HDMI connectors encrypted with HDCP

then you said

User created HD DVD's presumably wouldn't have copy protection or record flags so they would play 1080i, etc out both HDMI

THEREFORE -- both statements can't be true ....

but assuming that COMMERCIAL HD has HDCP and home does not -- THEN IF HDCP is removed from COMMERCIAL HD and a back up is made - that back up WILL PLAY , as it is no different than a home made HD video ..

OK, here goes my best guess, first for the commercial enrypted HD DVD.

HD DVD data encryption extends potentially to all data on the DVD as specified during authoring. This data encryption is designed the prevent the data files from being extracted and decoded directly from the DVD disc.

Allowed playback modes are separate issues but also determined during authoring. In this case, the DVD author is talking to the player hardware to specify which playback modes will be enabled for that particular DVD disc. The modes available to be controlled by the hardware include:

1. Playback through digital HDCP encoded connections - Presumably all normal HDTV modes will be allowed, but maybe 8/10/12bit D/A is controlled.
2. Playback through component analog connections (enable any combination of 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p)
3. CVBS (composite), S-Video on/off.
4. Native digital Y, Cb, Cr accessable or not (i.e. full decryption of digital data on the DVD).

In the case of a home made HD DVDR, the default authoring may be to allow all of the above with options to inhibit selectively. DVD data encryption would also be an option.

This is all speculation based on tidbits of real HD DVD info and adding the record block discussion issues.

My interest is how this will affect me watching HDTV material on my non-HDCP equipped HDTV. If they turn off my component analog ports, or reduce them to 480p, I'm going to be one angry camper.

PS: I don't think 1080p is actually possible through component analog connections, so delete that option).

[edDV]

but assuming that COMMERCIAL HD has HDCP and home does not -- THEN IF HDCP is removed from COMMERCIAL HD and a back up is made - that back up WILL PLAY , as it is no different than a home made HD video ..

HD DVD disc data will be encrypted in other ways not related to HDCP.

HDCP encryption only applies to the connection of the sending device (tuner, dvr, HD DVD player, etc.) to the HDTV (or future external dvr). It's a standardized point A-B connection encryption only. The key requires $$$$ payment only affordable by manufacturers.

None of this should apply to user recordable media.

[satviewer2000]

Most people out there who own HDTV's still own analog component input versions. Not everyone is going to spend a few thousand more to get one with the newest inputs.

So any HD-DVD format in the near future will have to support component output, otherwise they will risk losing thousands of potential viewers.

It's doubtful that they can just do away with component output for DVD, HD-DVD, or any format any time soon.

[edDV]

Let's hope. The broadcast record flag can be used to reduce the component analog output to 480p or less.

There will be a loud cry of protest if they do that.

The real test will come with the introduction of the HD DVD players.


Added: Well it's not looking good for componet analog, at least for the Sigma Designs HD DVD player em8620L chipset.

http://www.sigmadesigns.com/products/em8620Lseries_faq.htm#advantages

" What types of Progressive outputs are supported?

For highest picture quality, the EM8620L Series supports 480p, 576p, 720p, 768p, 1024p and 1080p (up to 60Hz refresh rates). It is limited to 480p or 576p for CSS-protected DVDs, unless DVI/HDCP or HDMI/HDCP is used, or the digital video outputs drive a LCD/DLP/PDP/LCOS display or another chip."

also,

" Can it scale to HDTV resolution?

Our fourth-generation advanced programmable scaling engine is capable of high-quality scaling of content up to 1920x1080p @ 60Hz. 1:1 pixel mapping to a specific display is now possible, ensuring the highest video quality. However, the resolution is limited to 720x480i, 720x480p, 720x576i or 720x576p for CSS-protected DVDs, unless DVI/HDCP or HDMI/HDCP is used, or the digital video outputs drive a LCD/DLP/PDP/LCOS display or another chip.

That means it won't scale a standard DVD to 720p or 1080i either (for component analog outputs).

[BJ_M]

1080p is possible on component analog connections, i do it now ...

i also have a DVI connection on one system -- and both HDCP and non HDCP on different systems ... so will fool around with it when the time comes ..

[edDV]

I added some bad news above.