Help with Menu XML - Pioneer Players (LONG)

[tedhowe]

Hi everyone. I've been reading this site for about 6 months and my forays into (S)VCDs have been enjoyable.

I am now getting more advanced and I have a question for all of the VCDImager/XML experts...

I am trying to create VCDs of all of the Bugs Bunny cartoons that I recorded from Cartoon Network last month. It will be a set of about 18 discs for the 170-some cartoons and I want to put a menu on each one. I have Nero 5.5 and I like it's menu building interface, but since I have a pioneer DVD player (and I just WANT to make a fully compliant VCD2.0 disc) I have started working with VDCImager.

I have about 10-11 cartoons on each disc and therefore Nero puts the track titles on two pages. On the pioneer, I cannot move back and forth between these two pages... only page one is visible.

I've ripped this disc with VCDXRIP and have the XML.

I've looked at it to try to find where I would tweak it to make the menus work on the Pioneer.

Does anyone have experience with this specifically?

I've attached the XML below so that you can see it.

Thanks in advance for all the help and thanks to HVR for the great tools. I am a geek at heart, and will eventually get the hang of VCDImager and then I can't wait to get going with my home-made compilation VCDs.


Ted

tedhowe@burke-howe.com

<?xml version="1.0" ?>
<!DOCTYPE videocd (View Source for full doctype...)>
- <!-- commandline used: /cygdrive/d/VCDIMAGE/VCDXRIP -od:\test1.xml -=nrg-file=d:\bugsvcd\bugs01\bugs02.nrg -=norip -v
-->
- <videocd xmlns="http://www.gnu.org/software/vcdimager/1.0/" class="vcd" version="2.0">
- <info>
<album-id />
<volume-count>1</volume-count>
<volume-number>1</volume-number>
<restriction>0</restriction>
</info>
- <pvd>
<volume-id>BUGSBUNNY02</volume-id>
<system-id>CD-RTOS CD-BRIDGE</system-id>
<application-id>CDI/CDI_VCD.APP;1</application-id>
<preparer-id />
<publisher-id />
</pvd>
- <filesystem>
- <folder>
<name>CDI</name>
</folder>
</filesystem>
- <segment-items>
<segment-item src="item0000.mpg" id="segment-0000" />
<segment-item src="item0001.mpg" id="segment-0001" />
</segment-items>
- <sequence-items>
<sequence-item src="avseq00.mpg" id="sequence-00" />
<sequence-item src="avseq01.mpg" id="sequence-01" />
<sequence-item src="avseq02.mpg" id="sequence-02" />
<sequence-item src="avseq03.mpg" id="sequence-03" />
<sequence-item src="avseq04.mpg" id="sequence-04" />
<sequence-item src="avseq05.mpg" id="sequence-05" />
<sequence-item src="avseq06.mpg" id="sequence-06" />
<sequence-item src="avseq07.mpg" id="sequence-07" />
<sequence-item src="avseq08.mpg" id="sequence-08" />
<sequence-item src="avseq09.mpg" id="sequence-09" />
</sequence-items>
- <pbc>
- <selection id="selection-01">
<bsn>1</bsn>
<next ref="selection-02" x1="189" y1="213" x2="229" y2="237" />
<wait>-1</wait>
<loop jump-timing="immediate">0</loop>
<play-item ref="segment-0000" />
<select ref="playlist-01" x1="27" y1="66" x2="115" y2="86" />
<select ref="playlist-02" x1="27" y1="87" x2="226" y2="108" />
<select ref="playlist-03" x1="27" y1="108" x2="147" y2="129" />
<select ref="playlist-04" x1="27" y1="130" x2="164" y2="150" />
<select ref="playlist-05" x1="27" y1="151" x2="190" y2="172" />
<select ref="playlist-06" x1="27" y1="172" x2="106" y2="193" />
</selection>
- <playlist id="playlist-01" rejected="true">
<next ref="playlist-02" />
<return ref="selection-01" />
<wait>5</wait>
<autowait>0</autowait>
<play-item ref="sequence-00" />
</playlist>
- <playlist id="playlist-02" rejected="true">
<prev ref="playlist-01" />
<next ref="playlist-03" />
<return ref="selection-01" />
<wait>5</wait>
<autowait>0</autowait>
<play-item ref="sequence-01" />
</playlist>
- <playlist id="playlist-03" rejected="true">
<prev ref="playlist-02" />
<next ref="playlist-04" />
<return ref="selection-01" />
<wait>5</wait>
<autowait>0</autowait>
<play-item ref="sequence-02" />
</playlist>
- <playlist id="playlist-04" rejected="true">
<prev ref="playlist-03" />
<next ref="playlist-05" />
<return ref="selection-01" />
<wait>5</wait>
<autowait>0</autowait>
<play-item ref="sequence-03" />
</playlist>
- <playlist id="playlist-05" rejected="true">
<prev ref="playlist-04" />
<next ref="playlist-06" />
<return ref="selection-01" />
<wait>5</wait>
<autowait>0</autowait>
<play-item ref="sequence-04" />
</playlist>
- <playlist id="playlist-06" rejected="true">
<prev ref="playlist-05" />
<next ref="playlist-07" />
<return ref="selection-01" />
<wait>5</wait>
<autowait>0</autowait>
<play-item ref="sequence-05" />
</playlist>
- <selection id="selection-02" rejected="true">
<bsn>7</bsn>
<prev ref="selection-01" x1="27" y1="213" x2="67" y2="237" />
<return ref="selection-01" x1="0" y1="0" x2="0" y2="0" />
<wait>-1</wait>
<loop jump-timing="immediate">0</loop>
<play-item ref="segment-0001" />
<select ref="playlist-07" x1="27" y1="66" x2="196" y2="86" />
<select ref="playlist-08" x1="27" y1="87" x2="182" y2="108" />
<select ref="playlist-09" x1="27" y1="108" x2="178" y2="129" />
<select ref="playlist-10" x1="27" y1="130" x2="117" y2="150" />
</selection>
- <playlist id="playlist-07" rejected="true">
<prev ref="playlist-06" />
<next ref="playlist-08" />
<return ref="selection-02" />
<wait>5</wait>
<autowait>0</autowait>
<play-item ref="sequence-06" />
</playlist>
- <playlist id="playlist-08" rejected="true">
<prev ref="playlist-07" />
<next ref="playlist-09" />
<return ref="selection-02" />
<wait>5</wait>
<autowait>0</autowait>
<play-item ref="sequence-07" />
</playlist>
- <playlist id="playlist-09" rejected="true">
<prev ref="playlist-08" />
<next ref="playlist-10" />
<return ref="selection-02" />
<wait>5</wait>
<autowait>0</autowait>
<play-item ref="sequence-08" />
</playlist>
- <playlist id="playlist-10" rejected="true">
<prev ref="playlist-09" />
<next ref="selection-02" />
<return ref="selection-02" />
<wait>5</wait>
<autowait>0</autowait>
<play-item ref="sequence-09" />
</playlist>
</pbc>
</videocd>

[hvr]

let's take a look at what nero gives us:

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
<selection id="selection-01">
<bsn>1</bsn>
<next ref="selection-02" x1="189" y1="213" x2="229" y2="237" />
<wait>-1</wait>
<loop jump-timing="immediate">0</loop>
<play-item ref="segment-0000" />
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

well, the '-1' <wait> entry means to wait an infinite time, that's ok.
(but makes little sense, as this infinite time is never used, see below)

...but the highlighted line is the real problem... I hate to show companies like ahead, how they can fix their bugs... but well...
what's requested here is actually to loop the still image an infinite number of times (that's why the infinite <wait> is never made use of)... and to jump immediate... but that's quite uncommon (why would I want to loop always the same still image???), the more common (and recommended way, see also the specs) for items with one still picture and no sound, to loop exactly once, and have a delayed jump timming:

<loop jump-timing="delayed">1</loop>

should the disc not play when rebuilt and burned, the expected way
(pressing >| (NEXT) should go to the 2nd selection) I'd suggest you
take a close look at the item*.mpg files, to check whether they were properly encoded...

hope this helps...

[tedhowe]

Thanks HVR

I spent the last several hours going over the samples from your website and comparing them to the XML I reverse engineered from Nero and I was able to make a VCD that worked the way I wanted, but it is very good to have a real answer as to which of the seven (or so) things that I changed was the one that fixed it.

I am a lot more confident in what I want to do now that I have this fixed, and with your input.

It is kind of amazing that Nero creates a disc that doesn't work on the Pioneer players.

Am I reading your answer correctly to say that the Pioneer player is CORRECTLY interpreting the PBC settings here?

Is it just that most other players are more lax about how they do this?

I am pretty sure that I won't be using Nero for my menus any more.

Now that I have a better grasp on the XML, I am planning on creating menus in Photoshop and using VCDImager.

Thanks again. I love the control I can get from this.

Ted

[vitualis]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-07-08 14:59:06, tedhowe wrote:
Am I reading your answer correctly to say that the Pioneer player is CORRECTLY interpreting the PBC settings here?

Is it just that most other players are more lax about how they do this?
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm not sure on how other players would interpret this, but basically Nero is saying to loop a still image an infinite amount of times (loop 0 = loop forever). IMHO, this is obviously stupid. On your player, as it is doing the "looping" it must interrupt the ability to select options or use next or prev.

As I'm sure you've worked out, the correct/better setting is as what hvr outlined in his post.

The <loop jump-timing="immediate">0</loop> setting is useful for a menu if you use a video clip rather than a still.

Regards.

[kHenryan]

Hi everyone
I really like the power of vcdimager/xml has.
But I don't like the neromade mpegstill , It alway adds while lines and numbers, can anyone tell me what software except nero can convert a still(like jpg,bmp) to mpegstill file that vcdimager/xml accepts?

[WillVideo4Food]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-07-09 00:18:30, kHenryan wrote:
Hi everyone
I really like the power of vcdimager/xml has.
But I don't like the neromade mpegstill , It alway adds while lines and numbers, can anyone tell me what software except nero can convert a still(like jpg,bmp) to mpegstill file that vcdimager/xml accepts?
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

I MAY be able to help here, thanks to this post: http://www.vcdhelp.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=49282&forum=1
1. You can simply use TMPGEnc and choose a single .bmp file as your input and use a VCD or SVCD template for your output(be careful that it isn't named file0001.bmp in a folder with a bunch of other file00xx.bmp files because TMPGEnc treats these as a sequence). Choose video only. TMPGEnc can even resize it for you.
2. Then you can mux the file using TMPGEnc without any audio to get valid VCD or SVCD. Choose MPEG-2 SuperVCD(VBR). (Not sure if step 1 and 2 can be combined by choosing System (video only) in step 1).
3. Then if you want vcdimager to recognize your file as an MPEG Still, you can go into your favorite hex editor (I use XVI32 or FrHed) and replace all of the occurances of 00 00 01 e0 with 00 00 01 e1 for SVCD.

My wish list:
An option for TMPGEnc or bbMPEG to choose a single or multiple .bmp files and have them create valid VCD/SVCD MPEG stills.

And I'd like to say hvr is a god. He has time to create such an excellent program, frequently update it, AND pop in to VCDHELP from time to time. We're not worthy.

Thanks,
Will

[kHenryan]

Thank you, WillVideo4Food

It is very truely helpful information , I will try it tonight.

[vitualis]

There is a problem with the above mentioned method. Firstly, I'm positive that there are specific bitrates that must be followed for the MPEG-1 stills. This would not be adhered to by using TMPGEnc, or any other encoder.

Secondly, the MPEG stills on a VCD are usually a normal resolution and high resolution still multiplexed together.

A proggy that I know of that can also create MPEG stills (it outputs CUE/BIN images that can be VCDXRIP'ed) is CDMotion.

Regards.

[WillVideo4Food]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-07-09 20:53:33, vitualis wrote:
There is a problem with the above mentioned method. Firstly, I'm positive that there are specific bitrates that must be followed for the MPEG-1 stills. This would not be adhered to by using TMPGEnc, or any other encoder.

Secondly, the MPEG stills on a VCD are usually a normal resolution and high resolution still multiplexed together.

A proggy that I know of that can also create MPEG stills (it outputs CUE/BIN images that can be VCDXRIP'ed) is CDMotion.

Regards.

</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

I haven't been able to test CDMotion yet. And I haven't yet been able to burn a disc with the type of stills that I described making. (I've been experiencing audio technical difficulties - help, please, if you can http://www.vcdhelp.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=49907&forum=1&2) But I have created a .bin and .cue with the type of stills I describe with no complaints from vcdimager, and using vcddebug it identifies those segment items as MPEG stills.

As far as the bitrate, I don't know. I don't have a copy of the specs to examine but I do know that if you download the MPEG stills from hvr's website (here: http://vcdimager.hvrlab.org/pub/vcdimager/examples/mpeg/stills/ ) , which hvr has said were created using Nero, and go to File | Properties | Advanced (tab) , select Ligos MPEG Video Decoder and press the Properties button, it reports the following under MPEG Info:
hvr_ntsc_mpeg1.mpeg -
Video Type: MPEG-1
Picture Size: 352 x 240
Bit Rate: 9800000
Frame Rate: 29.970

hvr_ntsc_mpeg2.mpeg -
Video Type: MPEG-2
Picture Size: 704 x 480
Bit Rate: 9800000
Frame Rate: 29.970

And so on. I've managed to create the same thing with the method I describe with a different bit rate (2520000), which (I thought) was for SVCD. I've even RE-encoded Nero's MPEG stills at different bit rates. I-Author MPEG stills, incidentally, show a bit rate of 120000. And their quality is not very good. The ones I have created with mklogo report 6000000 (also MPEG-2, but 480 x 480).

Even without the hex editor hack, vcdimager will take the Still segment items, but vcddebug reports them as "NTSC Motion". I would imagine that my DVD player (Apex 600) would still play them, but like I said, I haven't been able to burn and test yet.

kHenryan,
Have YOU had any success with the method I describe?

Perhaps, hvr can pop in again and shed some light.

Thanks,
Will

[vitualis]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2001-07-10 06:36:07, WillVideo4Food wrote:
I haven't been able to test CDMotion yet. And I haven't yet been able to burn a disc with the type of stills that I described making. (I've been experiencing audio technical... </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

CDMotion can make both VCDs and SVCDs (apparently). I've only ever tried the VCD functionality (and only with creating still images mpegs at that). One thing with CDMotion though -- make sure all your source files have a short filename. When it encodes the mpegs from the bitmaps, it names the intermediate files by adding a HR or NR to the filename (e.g., pic1.bmp --> pic1NR.mpv and pic1HR.mpv). Normally, you wouldn't have to worry about this, but when it is building the disc, one of its subprograms can't handle long filenames. Thus, you will have to keep your file names shorter than 6 characters.

Remember, for stand VCDs (and SVCDs I think), you can have menus (still mpegs) at full TV resolution (i.e., 704x480/576).

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>Even without the hex editor hack, vcdimager will take the Still segment items, but vcddebug reports them as "NTSC Motion". I would imagine that my DVD player (Apex 600) would still play them, but like I said, I haven't been able to burn and test yet.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

This could lead to a problem, especially if the player "thinks" it is actually a motion clip and sees a framesize of 704x480/576.

Regards.

[digvid]

Just a side note concerning CDMotion. I have used this software quite a bit, and it does work for both VCD and SVCD. It is a great tool, but I still prefer VCDImage, which I feel gives me total control of my disc layout.

- digvid

[kHenryan]

To WillVideo4Food

Yesterday I tried a burning of SVCD with mpegstill method suggested by WillVideo4Food and it was sucessful ! Wonderful!

By the way , I was still a little confused about megstill method for VCD.

is the process like this:

1.use tmpgenc to encode bmp at 704X480 using vcd template (say a1.mpg)

2.then use tmpgenc to remux a.mpg without audio using SuperVCD template

3.use the hex-edit trick