forty-two 1.5 SVCD -- ISO or .BIN/.CUE output?

[rossgard]

Forgive me if I'm missing something obvious. I was very excited to see version 1.5 of forty-two released, as I thought this version would produce burn-ready disc images.

When I use forty-two 1.5 to go from a DVD-Video disc to SVCD using the default settings (no VBR, etc.), I get matching pairs of .BIN/.CUE files.

This is in conflict with page 6 of the forty-two manual, which says I will get ISO disc image files:

Forty-two will automagically clean up after itself and leave you with an ISO disc image. These can be used in Mac OS X’s Disc Copy, Roxio’s Toast, or MMB.

If I understand what I read in other threads, using the .BIN/.CUE files to create the SVCD discs requires a great deal of (poorly documented) rigmarole in vcdtoolsX, including ripping the MPEG stream back out of the .BIN files.

What am I missing? Is the manual inaccurate? Why would forty-two leave me with files that aren't ready to burn?

Let me add that I think forty-two is a fantastic program. I think the idea is elegant and the implementation very smart. I am amazed at the polish of a product produced without the typical corporate infrastructure. I just haven't been very successful in using it yet (which is why I haven't sent money). I have very high hopes for it. Thanks for all the hard work, guys!

Environment: 800 MHz Superdrive eMac, OS X 10.2.3, forty-two 1.5

Thanks!

Ross

[exohw]

You can easily & properly burn that .bin file with excellent Toast 5.2.

Launch Toast, choose VideoCD and drag your .bin file onto Toast. Burn, that's it!

If your .bin file is not accepted by Toast VideoCD mode, ie. maybe Toast gives you error "NO MPEGAV FOLDER FOUND", you'll have to 'fix' your .bin file. You can do this with "SVCD Fixer" or "Gumby". It's a one sec process.

Toast doesn't like "MPG2/yourMovie.mpg" structure on (S)VCD's. Toast does prefer "MPEGAV/yourMovie.dat" format; don't ask me why, I simply don't know.

So in order to let Toast accept your VideoCD .bin file., verify if your .bin file has the 'correct' structure. You can mount your .bin file from within Toast Utilities menu, to find out which 'format' is used.

That .cue file is not used by Toast, I guess it is only used on PC's. You can safely toss it.

Good Luck!

[rossgard]

Thank you very much, exohw, for replying.

From reading this forum, however, my understanding is that, while this method of dropping the .bin file into Toast will often produce a disc that will play (albeit with some problems), it doesn't produce a properly arranged SVCD.

In particular, I am referring to the topic:

Forty-Two Burning, let me get this straight

and the discussion there between galactica and jefwest. The suggestion, if I am comprehending the thread, is that to get truly compliant SVCD discs, you must rip the mpeg stream from the .bin with vcdtoolsX, hand-hack an XML file (what XML file, I am not certain), and generate .img files from vcdtoolsX.

If this thread is correct, it makes me wonder why forty-two, which so slickly takes care of all the details for us, leaves us just shy of burn-ready files. That's what I love about forty-two--it just takes care of things without my having to learn a great deal about various audio/video/disc formats.

And I still wonder about the manual saying that the output should be ISO images.

On the other hand, I am very new to SVCDs, so there certainly may be subtleties that I am missing.

Does anyone have any insight into this issue?

Thanks,

Ross

(Side note: I realized after my last post that it was inappropriate for me to assume that the developers of forty-two are "guys." I should have said, "Thanks for all the hard work, folks!")

[jefwest]

OKAY, let's get this straight people. .BIN's of SVCD's DONT BURN PROPERLY by just DROPPING them into toast, VCD .bin's do. Now, you have several options around this, one of which is to doctor the .bin with some programs, here is a great explanation by exhow

Toast 5.2 is just fine, but it's little picky in accepting VideoCD .bin files.

First off, Toast doesn't need .cue files at all.

Secondly, I guess below is why your Toast .bin file is not accepted as VideoCD in Toast:

Toast needs "MPEGAV/yourMovie.dat" folder instead of "MPG2/yourMovie.mpg" folder. I don't know why Toast only accept it in such way, anyway, if you mount the toast image 42 did generate for you (launch Toast -> Utilities menu, choose Mount Disc Image...) you will find out that there is an "MPG2/yourMovie.mpg" folder, right?

If so, you'll need to change this into "MPEGAV/yourMovie.dat" so Toast can accept it as valid VideoCD.

To change the folder/file names, use "SVCD Fixer" or "Gumby". You won't be able to change these manualy, at least not that I know of...

Hope this helps you out.

Also, You can follow the tutorial i listed in my discussion with galactica. Reference that for another way, but personally I would just use MissingMediaBurner......it's easier.

[exohw]

With Toast you can burn a valid SVCD by choosing VideoCD and burn your .bin file. The .bin file should contain all necessary information; Toast just burns that .bin; Toast won't alter your .bin. Of course you can also create SVCD as XA-images and these images should be burned as MultiTrack in Toast. Both ways will give you valid SVCD.

Disc Image format in Toast will not output a valid (S)VCD!!

I don't know on 42's output; I only have PAL DVD's and 42 does not generate ISO or .bin at all...just .mp2 and .mpv files. So I cann't speak for that.

Anyway, correct me if I'm wrong.

[rossgard]

Thanks, exohw and jefwest, for all your efforts.

Let me see if I can summarize and then explain where I am having difficulties.

If I understand you correctly, there are three ways to turn the .bin/.cue output of forty-two into a valid SVCD disk:

- You can burn the .bin files created by forty-two to a valid SVCD with Toast, provided you first fix the .bin file with SVCD Fixer or Gumby and then select the Video CD format in Toast.

- You can use vcdtoolsX and the tutorial at their Web site to create .img files which you can burn with Toast in Multitrack CD-ROM XA format.

- You can use MissingMediaBurner to burn the .bin (or perhaps .bin/.cue pairs?) to CD.


Here are the problems I am having with each approach:

- Fixing the directory structure of the .bin files requires either SVCD Fixer or Gumby. I have been unable to track down either of these products using Google, VersionTracker's OS X section, or the Tools page of VCDhelp.com.

- The SVCD tutorial for vcdtoolsX appears to document an earlier version of vcdtoolsX and relies upon a panel of vcdtools ("toastXAimager") that does not appear to be in the current release. Also, and I say this as a senior technical writer myself, this tutorial is almost incomprehensible.

- I have looked at MissingMediaBurner, but I have not been able to figure it out. The documentation is almost non-existent. It appears to have two modes, CDRDAO and CDRECORD. Apparently, only CDRECORD will work with Apple's stock DVD-RW/CD-RW drives. This mode seems to require, you guessed it, an ISO image file. (CDRDAO, however, seems to want a TOC cue-sheet file. Maybe this is the .cue created by forty-two, but I can't test it because CDRDAO doesn't want to work with my Apple/Pioneer DVR-104 DVD-RW drive.)


So, you can see why I was excited at the idea that forty-two was going to produce burn-ready ISO images--none of this futzing around with other tools. Maybe there is some technical reason that forty-two can't just produce ISO image files that can be directly burned by Toast, Disk Copy, or MMB, as the manual suggests it will, but, boy, would it make things easier!

I'm open to any suggestions.

Thanks, everyone, for all your help.

Ross

[exohw]

Gumby is available here:

http://gumby.misplacedmac.com/

[rossgard]

Thanks, exohw!

I've downloaded and tried Gumby. Using Gumby's "SVCD Fixer" panel on the .bin files seems to allow them to be burned in Toast, just as you all suggested.

I still think it odd that forty-two requires this extra step. I mean, the whole point of forty-two is that it makes the entire conversion process a "near-one-click" experience, so the need for an additional tool seems inelegant. But I know, too, that the developers' thinking leans away from Toast and toward MMB for SVCDs, and MMB doesn't require the extra step (or so I understand).

And I noted that deep in the 1.5 release thread, Kai acknowledges that the section of the manual I referenced is less than entirely clear.

This is such a spectacular development effort, both by the developers AND by the community that supports the development and the users. My contribution is on the way!

Thanks!

Ross

[bilestyle]

With Toast you can burn a valid SVCD by choosing VideoCD and burn your .bin file. The .bin file should contain all necessary information; Toast just burns that .bin; Toast won't alter your .bin. Of course you can also create SVCD as XA-images and these images should be burned as MultiTrack in Toast. Both ways will give you valid SVCD.

Disc Image format in Toast will not output a valid (S)VCD!!

I don't know on 42's output; I only have PAL DVD's and 42 does not generate ISO or .bin at all...just .mp2 and .mpv files. So I cann't speak for that.

Anyway, correct me if I'm wrong.

SVCD bin in toast in VCD mode is NOT a valid svcd.. it shouldn't even accept it, and if it does once burned it is NOT valid EVER...if it acctually accepts, burns and plays its an anomoly. Toast may accept mpeg-2 svcd files in video cd mode and burn as well but it will not play on all or even most players. The only time you burn a valid svcd in toast is when you have 2 cdrom xa images that you burn in cdrom xa mode.. no other time.

[exohw]

Probably true about the VideoCD way...though it works just fine on my APEX110W and Neufunk standalone DVD players. Both players read and treat the SVCD's (burned as VideoCD with Toast) very well. No single glitch. Also, many other people just use VideoCD to burn SVCD .bin images. It much depends on your player...

Anyway, I fully agree with the loose mpeg2 written as VideoCD in Toast; it won't work - not even in my both players I have mentioned above.

And sure, you're right, the very best way in Toast to write your SVCD's is the Multitrack deal.

As always, choose the way that fits you best ... and gets you result.

I read all the posts above and yours aswell Bilestyle..Well here are my results.
I've been using Toast to burn my SVCD's.
*Use Multitrack CDROM XA mode
*Convert .bin to .img using VCDToolsX
It works most of the time but sometimes when I unstuff the bin file it comes really short on the mpeg.
I've had this problem lately with some bin files but never when using 42 though......so I cannot burn it to disk. I'm left viewing it on my Mac only.
So to make a long story short, I used Gumby to convert the bin file that was giving me trouble and burned it accordingly(VCD in Toast).
Works perfectly. Even fast scan increments of 5 minutes.
Even if you say that its not a valid file Bilestyle, it saved my butt!!! Look, it works and works in my Mac on VLC and on my Samsung DVD table top.

Lets have more users chime in with their results.
Its a very fast way to burn your file. I guess MMB is ok too if you want and can figure it out (for some out there),but I like Toast 5.2 cause it works better with my old 4x cd-rw which is kinda kinda tempermental..

[bilestyle]

i don't know why i even bother posting responses if people are going to keep asking questions/responses based on non-standard methods of burning. So this is going to be my last response on the matter and if any more questions/responses arise about it im just going to flat out ignore them... im sorry people but im sick and tired of people arguing with me or second-guessing me. i wouldn't say something was certain unless i was 100% positive that it was.. you can NEVER EVER get STANDARD burning of SVCD files in toast w/o them being in XA mode as 2 image files. Plain and simple, not as a bin file in xa mode, not as a patched mpeg/bin file from gumby, not muxed differently, not in vcd mode as an svcd mpeg NOTHING. If it works in your player, good for you, but if you are going to advise faulty advice to people make sure you let them know these obscure methods are NOT standard so they don't go teach other people improper methods as well... this is my final word on the matter.

[the_locke]

Bile...please don't get offended after your last message, but I do need help.

All of the different people telling me/us different methods for burning these darn VCD/SVCD disks, that I've wasted so many blanks I can't tell you.

So, that said, I think we need help.

Can you lay out for me exactly what you recommend for burning the different formats. I currently have two sets of .bin/.cue files made from 42 for a conversion to SVCD, and can not get them on to disk and working.

I know you have said to use VCDToolsX - but what is the process?

I don't want to sound like an idiot, but I just can't seem to find the process that actually works on the forums without too much conflicting opinion.

[rorschach]

I have an SVCD problem that may be very relevant to this thread:

(1) I have 2 large SVCDs (about 797mb ea.) that I cannot extract the MPEG with VCDToolsX. It just won't let me. What can I do?

(2) Other SVCDs, which plays just great on VLC, and appears crisp and great, I have been unable to generate IMG files so that I can drop it into Toast as Multitrack XA files. Again, it just won't let me.

Thanks for Gumby, which looks like a great tool, but I don't know how to apply it yet. It may be relevant to these files.

[galactica]

Speaking from LOTS of experience here!

1. TOAST WILL NOT BURN SVCD's in standard format. NOTE: Some players (Particulary the APEX 1100W) will play them, however the majority of SVCD dvd players will not. (I learned this the hard way, 100+ svcd's burned with toast while i had an apex 1100w do not play on my new apex player! Essentially wasted (but they can be fixed, see below)

2. MISSING MEDIA BURNER or FIRESTARTER are the two SVCD burners of recommendation. YOU MUST HAVE A .cue and a corresponding .bin if you expect your SVCD to be standard (including XSVCD)

3. TOAST WILL NOT BURN SVCD (wait I already said it. EVEN ONES YOU FIX USING PRGRAMS THAT CLAIM THEY WILL MAKE TOAST BURN THE SVCD, JUST DONT DO IT, ITS JUST NOT WORTH IT.

Missing Media Burner.
Simple program that you can download from versiontracker.com
Click on video, using the pulldown menu choose multitrack .cue / .bin
drag 1st .cue in, push start. Repeat for 2nd .cue etc.

Firestarter
Click on the option for .cue/.bin, and follow steps. Very simple


WHAT IF I ONLY HAVE .BIN??
Simple - extract the .mpeg file using VCDTOOLSX.
Then using VCDTOOLSX remake the .bin/.cue with the .mpeg you just ripped. Now you have the .cue file.

WHAT IF I ONLY HAVE .MPEG??
Simple - ist ensure that its split to no larger than 791 megs. Then take the .mpeg and using VCDTOOLSX create the .bin/.cue with the mpeg.

WHAT IF I CANT RIP THE MPEG OUT OF THE .BIN??
IF VCDTOOLX doesnt rip the mpeg try Missing MPEG Tools or VCDGear Cant remember if they do or dont. (Other option, whicih has proven for me once or twice is to take the .bin, load it to TOAST as a disk image, then SAVE AS DISK IMAGE AGAIN - this time creating a .toast. When thats finished, rename the .toast to .bin and try vcdtoolsx again. Usually if that fails, the .bin is corrupted.)

Fixing Toast Burned SVCD disks (those already burned using toast)
Put the disk into your comptuer. Open TOAST and click DISK COPY.
Then SAVE AS DISK IMAGE. This will create a .toast disk image which when renamed to .bin will allow you to extract the .mpeg file from it using VCDTOOLSX. Then simply remake the correct .bin/.cue and burn those using Missing Media Burner or Firestarter.

NOTE: The process of ripping / creating .bin/.cue images is really fast. Perhaps a couple of min per process per disk.

[Sirius]

What is everyone's obsession with toast? Why not use free tools like Apple's Disk Copy for burning disk images and use cdrdao or cdrecord through MissingMediaBurner, also free.

[galactica]

Agreed, althought toast is excellent for handing more tradiational burnable info: Data, CD's and even DVD's plus its ability to image cd's is amazing.

[the_locke]

my biggest issue with the above is that I have never been able to get MMB or the new FireStarter to work on my G4 Tower.

These older Pioneer 103 drives just don't seem to like the apps, and no matter what driver I try - well nothing burns. A few coasters, but no actual disks.

I haven't been able to find any useful documentation that has helped this situation as of yet, so Toast is my only real option right now.