DVD+R9 Double Layer first burn: problems with layer switch

First, though this is my first post, I'm not new to video editing, graphics and DVD Authoring. Also, I posted this topic already before, but there was a error with Videohelp.com and it does not show up anywhere in DVD to DVDR forum, unless you do a search (moderators, please remove that first post).

Well, yesterday I got a Verbatim Double Layer Kit from BestBuy to try out a DVD+R DL recording on Sony DRU-700A burner. It comes with one DVD+R DL disc made by MKM, 8 DVD+R discs made by MCC and one DVD+RW disc made also by MKM (!!!). For the test burn I decrypted the DVD files through DVD Decrypter to VIDEO_TS folder and later burned them with Nero Burning ROM that came with DRU-700A in DVD-Video mode. The test film was "Bram Stoker's Dracula" Superbit NTSC edition (I own this disc).

First the good news:

1) Indeed, if you use the LiteOn BookType Utility v1.0.6 bitsetting tool, it will successfully work on Sony DRU-700, because of the LiteOn hardware inside of it. I had no problems setting DVD+R DL to DVD-ROM book type. After the successful burn both DVDInfoPro and DVD Decrypter showed the book type to be in DVD-ROM format. Even my Pioneer DVR-A03 had no trouble recognizing recorded DVD+R DL disc, while it would never recognize even a regular DVD+R unless it was bitset to DVD-ROM book type. It was also recognized and played by Pioneer DV-535, Pioneer DV-533 and Sampo DVE-631CF standalone DVD players. I will go at some point to BestBuy again and try it on their DVD players. My Sony DRX-500ULX though could not recognize the recorded DVD+R DL until I updated to the latest firmware. My old Toshiba SD-M1202 DVD-ROM drive could not recognize this disc, but it also cannot read DVD-RW nor DVD+RW (it only reads +R/-R). So my guess is, if your DVD player can physically read RW DVD formats, it will almost certainly read DVD+R DL discs (especially if it was bitset to DVD-ROM book type). On the other hand Sampo DVE-631CF standalone player is usually very picky with +RW/-R DVD's, but had no trouble with DVD+R DL. Go figure.

2) On those drives and players where DVD+R DL disc was recognized, the playback, fast forward and rewind were flawless. No problems at all accessing menu, skipping between chapters, etc. The burn visually is very solid. Basically speaking, MKM and Philips did an outstanding job making this technology possible and working incredibly well right with the first generation of discs and drives. So the issue is not the burning quality or hardware...


Now the bad news:

A) So far it seems that Nero is the only software that supports Double Layer recording of VIDEO_TS structures (I'm not talking about ISO and other images). I usually like burning VIDEO_TS folders vs image files, normally with RecordNow DX, because with VIDEO_TS method it's easy to add extra artwork and other files into a DVD-ROM part of the disc. So, as always with Nero, with all the good things you also get a big can of worms. On the first attempt to burn, right after starting the recording it gave me some SCSI error which I've never seen before, but thankfully it did not destroy this EXPENSIVE DVD+R DL disc. The second attempt went well and after recording and verification Nero reported that everything was successful.

B) Well, Nero was advertising how well they manage the layer break and so forth, but in reality they did not do crap to make sure that this layer break is compatible with DVD-Video specifications. On the computer DVD players (WinDVD and RealMagic Hollywood Plus) the layer break was not a problem at all, you wouldn't even know where it was. That was also the case with Sampo DVE-631CF standalone DVD player - no problems with layer break. Basically, my guess is if your player is never showing any delay on commercial DVD's where there's a layer break then you're in luck.

The problem came into play with both of my Pioneer standalone DVD players. Again, if you skip between chapters, fast forward or rewind even through a layer break point everything goes smoothly, but if you just let the movie play, once the layer break point comes in, the Pioneer DVD players freeze on the last frame before the break. My educated guess is that this is happening because Nero did not automatically insert a Layer Break flag into the DVD-Video structure. So the newer players, or software based players will ignore it, but those that honestly follow DVD specifications, like my Pioneers, will choke on the layer break.

Usually on commercial DVD's in the place where there's layer break, the older Pioneers will pause for a second and show the word SEARCH in the display window before switching to the second layer. I'm sure something similar happens with a lot of older DVD players that don't have a buffer (so the layer break is not noticeable). So, to put it shortly, with the current version of Nero you cannot burn your VIDEO_TS folder to DVD+R DL and know that it complies with DVD-Video specifications - it doesn't. If some players do like the switch and some don't, that is certainly not good enough for me, nor anybody who would eventually put their own productions on DVD+R DL for their clients, etc. Pioneer DVD players are quite forgiving when it comes to some rules (for example they will play DVD's that have Video_ts in lower case letters instead of in CAPS like VIDEO_TS, where other players will refuse to play those discs). But even if such forgiving players are not happy with Nero's layer break then it's definitely screwed up.

Since I don't have another DVD+R DL around (I don't feel like spending another $30 for the Kit), I cannot test how would nero burn the ISO dual-layer files authored with DVDMaestro for example. Would Nero really switch where DVDMaestro inserts the layer break into ISO, or would it screw everything up again by doing its own layer transition in the place where Nero feels it should make a transition??? I'm asking this because I hear Nero is trying to make both layers the same exact length, while I know that in DVDMaestro, as long as the second layer is smaller in size, it's OK, so they don't have to be the same exact size. Anyone can guess how this whole thing might work? Also, Nero DID NOT write the whole disc to its full 8152MB capacity, as it was explained by them in order to make disc compatible even if the source material is not nearly as much as the Double Layer disc can hold. The film was of the smaller size, only about 7400MB and there's quite a bit of unburned space left on the outer edge of the disc where it turned back to record to the opposite track (the second layer).

C) The other thing that really sucks is that Sonic Solutions was advertising their new HyperMuxDL engine with INTELLIGENT Double Layer recording for DVD+R9 discs, with really well done layer breaks tailored specifically for DVD-Video, and that it's already available on their consumer line of products including RecordNow (according to their March 2004 Press Release). Well, I purchased their latest version of RecordNow Deluxe Suite 7 this May and it burns single layer discs nicely (though I don't like its interface and options nearly as much as the old RecordNow DX that came with Sony DRX-500ULX). However, the damn program does not even recognize DL disc as blank in DRU-700A burner. That means that those Sonic people are big liars. I'm sure their HyperMuxDL engine will work much better than Nero, but where the hell is it???

I hope that at least for the ISO DL files maybe DVD Decrypter will at least be a smart program for the recording and observing the layer breaks that are written in the ISO. I heard that Alcohol 120% now supports DL burning, I'd like to try that too, but again Alcohol 120% only does it with images instead of also burning VIDEO_TS folders.

I guess I will not do much testing until I can pay at least somewhat less than $30 for a luxury to have a single DVD+R9 DL blank disc.

But I'm curious to hear as to what other people might think and maybe suggest something about this annoying layer break issue.

Edmund Blackadder, welcome to the board. Your name is one of my all time favorite actors and comedian.

I used CopytoDVD to write my first dual layer disc without any problems.
I have never been to fond of Nero for burning any Video DVD. The only time I used Nero was to record data DVD. The only thing I didn't get a chance to do was to watch the whole movie that I recorded and see if anything went wrong. I plan to watch to watch it soon.

tommyoz Posted: Jun 09, 2004 12:05

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Edmund Blackadder, welcome to the board. Your name is one of my all time favorite actors and comedian.

Thanks tommyoz, I like Rowan Atkinson myself. I figured, there's already one Baldrick and one BlackAdder on the board, so I decided to be Edmund Blackadder .

I used CopytoDVD to write my first dual layer disc without any problems.
I have never been to fond of Nero for burning any Video DVD. The only time I used Nero was to record data DVD. The only thing I didn't get a chance to do was to watch the whole movie that I recorded and see if anything went wrong. I plan to watch to watch it soon.

I guess I should try CopytoDVD for my second test with the DVD+R DL when I get my hands on it, with the same exact material and see if it does better than Nero. Still, I'm also curious if the ISO with preprogrammed layer break is going to cure the switch problem.

Thanks again!

Originally Posted by naturalzinc

Edmund Blackadder u wouldnt happen to be a member of another forum whose name starts w/ "hook"?[/b]

No sorry, I am not the one. But there are other Blackadders, after all there were at least 5 different ones:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/blackadder/



Anyway, does anybody have any more suggestions on the original Layer Switch Problems topic?

Tommyoz, I tried CopytoDVD for regular DVD5 burning today, and I'm not that hot about that program. If I try to burn VIDEO_TS folder and some other extra files in DVD-Video mode, it simply removes other files and only leaves intact VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS folders. That's not very good. When I tried the same in Data mode it froze on me. But I will definitely try VIDEO_TS-only burning with CopytoDVD on DVD+R DL, just to see if it handles the layer break properly.

I might have to try ImgTool Classic if I have to add extra DVD-ROM content to DVD-Video compilation and convert it all to ISO file. Then perhaps burn it with DVD Decrypter since it theoretically supports DL burning. Though again I have no idea how it will handle the layer break.

So, I need to get at least 2 more DVD+R DL discs $$ $$ to test those two possibilities.

Anybody else got anything to say?

I cannot test how would nero burn the ISO dual-layer files authored with DVDMaestro for example.

Since Maestro creates an img file, Nero would burn that data, and just pad the rest to make the layers equal size. When you create you image with Maestro, you could enclude a few dummy files to make it exactly the right size divisable by 2.


Also did you choose OTP or PTP for the layer switch? Or does Nero offer that option? Nero DOES modify IFO/BUP files.

About the size, let's say you have an ISO of 6.27GB, according to the specs, the burning app should PAD one (both?) of the layers so they are the same size.

As long as the layer switch occurs before the 4.38GB mark, which it has to anyways, I wouldn't think it would matter where the layer switch occurs. Retail DVDs have the layer switch at different spots on each disc.

Edmund Blackadder, I've only burned 2 DVD+R DL disk so I am by no means any proffesional. I used CopytoDVD cause this was the program that was tried with the Liteon SOHW-812S @ 832S. I decided to stick with it.

I have version 3.0.12.27 and when I start the process I choose video DVD and it looks for the Video_TS.IFO. It also works with ISO i believe. I select the IFO file and it makes the Audio and Video TS folders with all the Vobs, Ifo's and Bups. I don't know about any extra content. Are you burning the Video_TS and Audio_TS folders as if you were doing data?

I also use ImgTool Classic for my DVD5's. At the time I did my first dual layer burn, I did not have the latest version of DVD Decrypter so I couldn't try it. Plus I did not want to risk a coaster since I knew that it would work with CopytoDVD. Once the media becomes more available, I'll experiment some more. For now I have to stick with what's working.

Originally Posted by disturbed1

Also did you choose OTP or PTP for the layer switch? Or does Nero offer that option? Nero DOES modify IFO/BUP files.

About the size, let's say you have an ISO of 6.27GB, according to the specs, the burning app should PAD one (both?) of the layers so they are the same size.

As long as the layer switch occurs before the 4.38GB mark, which it has to anyways, I wouldn't think it would matter where the layer switch occurs. Retail DVDs have the layer switch at different spots on each disc.

Disturbed1, I did not choose OTP nor PTP because the test material was not created in DVDMaestro (I plan on doing that when I get more DL media). Instead it was a dual-layered movie ripped to VIDEO_TS folder and burned with Nero.

And here's the weird part. The original film DVD "Bram Stoker's Dracula" while being dual-layer and playing properly DOES NOT seem to specify the layer break in the IFO file. I might be missing something, but always when I open IFO files in IFOEdit, there's always a Layer Break mention somewhere usually within a main Title in a DVD9 disc. Not with this DVD9. There is a layer break within a movie itself, because there's no bonuses on that disc - it's a Superbit edition. So I wander, how does the original DVD work to begin with on my Pioneer players, if it doesn't have Layer Break flag? It obviously doesn't burn properly onto DVD+R DL in this form.

Also, Nero DID NOT change anything relating Layer Break in the IFO/BUP files, I compared the original VIDEO_TS rip on my hard drive and the DL burn version - the IFO's are the same, nothing's been added nor substracted. That is what I don't like the most about Nero's DL burning - if it was smart it would add the Layer Break flag into IFO for total compatibility.

That's why I will also try CopytoDVD, as tested by tommyoz, to see if it adds something useful to IFO for DL burning. Again only when I get more DL media...

Manual padding technique should work, but how precise do you have to be to pinpoint the break switch down to the single video frame. It seems impossible practically and that's why I think it must be intelligently handled by the burning application. DVDMaestro will only let you make a break point based on the chapter points, so that's not very precise. I guess ideally the burning software at the very least - if there's not way to simply burn VIDEO_TS folder without complications - should be able to burn DL ISO precisely as it's coded and then:

1) Switch to the second layer exactly where ISO tells it to.
2) If second layer in ISO is smaller than the first, the burning application should automatically add some dummy padding to make the second layer exactly the size of the first.

Will CopytoDVD, Nero, DVD Decrypter, Alcohol 120%, etc., all do a fine job with that type of ISO, or am I just wishing too much?

Mystery partially solved

Without even burning another DVD+R Double Layer disc I think I found the answer to why my Superbit "Bram Stoker's Dracula" DVD would not backup with a proper layer change

Guess why?

Because none of the Superbit DVD titles are compliant with the DVD Forum's specifications, especially when it comes to a layer break. They all have "seamless layer break" and authored without any split between layers whatsoever. I'm guessing they are also pressed in some very special seamless way. Here's a couple of reviews mentioning this issue:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_4/mrg-91-october-2002.html

http://www.digitallyobsessed.com/showreview.php3?ID=3238


So if any of you would like to backup your Superbit DVD's to DVD+R DL media (when it comes down in price), and want to make sure that it has a proper layer break and plays on many DVD players you'd have to RE-AUTHOR that title from scratch and insert a layer break point yourself.

As I said before, some DVD players will forgive this seamless layer break when it's burned to DL media, but many will choke on it because there are no specific instructions in IFO file as what to do when layer non-seamlessly changes on DVD+R DL.

So if anyone is willing to do some more DVD+R DL burning tests, please consider doing so using Superbit Edition DVD's and report your results. It shouldn't matter whether you're doing it through ISO mode or VIDEO_TS folder. Try testing it first of all on older DVD players (like a couple years old Pioneers for example) that do play both layers at random successfully, but see what happens somewhere in the middle of the film if you just let it play continuously.

ive got the gladiator super bit,and dracula,and cant really say i noticed much difference between the two normal versions of the movie and these ones.
i do know someone who has copied the gladiator normal region 1 dvd,with all movie,soundtracks and menus from dvd1,onto a dual dvd.
and it woked perfectly well.
he used, dvd decrypter,picking all files,then picked write dvd video in copytodvd,and picked the IFO file.
then burnt it,and it worked,even on a 1 year old alba.
layer change was ok as well,just the usual miniscual jumped frame.
i would say that the superbit ones are a bit strange on older players,with the seamless transition as its called in the box,it makes me think that its actually placed between 2 of the vob files,so as to improve continuity.
*thinks back to the "armageddon" region 2 release,with the layer change during a conversation.

No flame intended: Just curious

I havent done a DL yet so this may be a dumb question but why would a layer break be a probm with DL's. Does the original's layer break occur at the same spot as when a DL burner/software switches layers? If it has to then this will be a major sync probm with all DVD's being burn to DL. If it doesnt then it shouldnt matter right?. Whouldnt it also be up to the burner software to create an appropriate layer break info when it switches to the 2nd side during a burning. Doesnt it do it now since the second side is recognized. So why would a layer break be an issue. Curious


EDIT: Yes this is a dumb question...since the original post mentioned that Nero and other SW is not creating a good layer break flag....me bad...


EDIT2: maybe a solution is to run the DVD thru DVDshrink with no compression to create the files and remove the layer break and hope the NERO will add in one that works when there is no layer break when burn to DL.

Originally Posted by Capt_Diode

Edmund,

Is it possible to add layer breaks using Ifo Edit? If it could be done it would sure save time on re-authoring.

Just a thought out side the box so to speak.

That's a good thought Captian Diode, I thought of it too and tried it as well, but unfortunately I haven't found any way in IFOEdit to add a layer break. I looked through all the options and no luck. I think it only thinks in single layer DVD-R's or splits to 2 DVD-R's. When I tried to create an image of DVD9 files, IFOEdit wouldn't even let me do that, saying that it's too big and won't fit on DVD-R. I think IFOEdit has not evolved yet to recordable DL thinking. After all it looks like it's not been updated since 2003 or even 2002

RottenFoxBreath, yes I think if you try to make a bit-by-bit perfect image of the original DVD9 with a proper layer break in DVD Decrypter or even Nero, without adding any of your own files, the resulting DVD+R DL should work with no problems and change layer properly since the image of the original would be well balanced and with the proper layer break instructions. I will definitely try that as well as my own DL images created in DVDMaestro. But I'm afraid that Superbit titles would definitely require re-authoring because of the seamless layer break - that is for proper DVD players, while Chinese brand players as well as PC's will probably do fine on those layer switches, just like in my case.

Lordsmurf, my DVD burning and authoring start was also quite rocky, back in 2001 with DVR-A03. While I got hold of DVDMaestro pretty quickly, even using command sequences, etc., at first I made one mistake and couldn't figure out why my Pioneer DVD players play my DVD's but none of the Sony's, Panasonics and many more proper players don't. That was because when I was burning in Windows98SE, it would rename VIDEO_TS to Video_ts and PrimoDVD (RecordNow nowadays), would not say that it was wrong and burn it anyway. Only later I found out that it all should be in CAPS while already I sold some of my theatrical production DVD-R's to some cast membes and some told me that they didn't play My reputation since then has recovered and people love my fancy DVD's, but I just hope that with DL I don't have to go the same route again.

Originally Posted by SaSi

I've read that the dual layer pressed media can be created so that layer 1 (the second layer) starts either from the outer side of the disk going in or from the inner edge going out (like layer 0 does). I always thought that for DVD Video, the first option is the proper one so that the layer brake doesn't generate a stutter.

In any case, even getting close to record DL with Nero is a bright achievement. BTW, exactly which Nero version did you use?

SaSi, yes, pressed DL media can opposite or parallel tracking, however DVD+R DL format only provides opposite tracking, which is actually better for video, as you mentioned yourself. It's just that the layer break also has to be specified in the image file to be 100% proper for DVD-Video specifications.

The "improper" DL backup of Superbit disc plays straight through without any pause during the layer break on my PC, as well as on Sampo DVD player (Sampo usually has a slight pause on commercial dual-layer DVD's that are properly authored unlike Superbit editions). But on this DVD+R DL backup it goes through layer change seamlessly!!! Unfortunately it's not good for my Pioneer DVD players and they freeze in that spot because of this "seamless" change - they need a proper IFO direction to successfully switch the layers. I don't know how Pioneers manage to play Superbit DVD's without choking, but unfortunately the same strategy doesn't work for recordable DL . Maybe Superbit pressed DVD's have some weird spiral that just continues in some pervert way into second layer without physically breaking???


P.S.: I'm using Nero 6.3.1.10 Sony Edition, the one that came with DRU-700A.

what about the possibility that the layer change is inbetween 2 vobs,meaning that if you are in any way,interfering with the layout of them,then there will be the freeze or,the stuttering or long waiting periods.
from what i remember,the layer change on my friends was exactly the same as the original it came from.
this might be a stalling point in the future,and i hope its easily overcome,last thing we need is more experimentation,to reach the same point as we are at now-pretty much prolific at burning.
i hope DL isnt gonna set us back in a way.
rofl..mind you,the price of media,will set me back in my wallet until it drops sufficiently

OK, I got hold of another DVD+R DL disc and made another burn.

This time this was a test backup of "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" DL disc which is only 5.16GB in capacity and first layer being significantly larger than the second, but still being below full possible layer capacity (3.49GB versus about 4GB).

Anyway, using Nero to make an image with the help of AnyDVD decryption and then burning with Nero solved the layer break issue. Nero did the layer split exactly to the sector of the original DVD . So, if you rip into the image, AND YOUR ORIGINAL DVD HAS A PROPER LAYER BREAK (unlike the Superbit titles) you can make perfect DL DVD backups.

Although one thing that makes me worried is that for the second time Nero failed to write on the first attempt and afterwards the full DVD+R DL disc capacity was reported to something like 7511MB (or something like that, I don't remember exactly) instead of normal 8152MB DL capacity. I wonder that if my image was larger than 7511MB would it fail?

Now I read that Sonic has FINALLY released RecordNow 7.2 with double layer burning support I would definitely trust that more than Nero. Unfortunately, I bought RecordNow Deluxe 7.0 just a month ago, and now it tells me as a registered user that I have no updates nor upgrades available!!! And that is while they are already selling DL vesion 7.2!!! THAT SUCKS!!! Before I bought v7.0 I e-mailed their customer support with the question if v7.0 supports double-layer burning and as of now got no reply. So I purchased it anyway, hoping that it would support DL burning, especially after reading their press releases. Well, v7.0 did not support DL burning . I hope they offer me some sort of update to v7.2 or I might have to find alternative ways to get their updated software and never buy anything else from Sonic again

Now, here's some more info about the first "Bram Stoker's Dracula" Superbit Edition DL backup. I wrote here before that the layer break was not authored into that Title and Nero did not insert it automatically. Well, I went with this DVD+R DL backup copy (burned on DRU-700A with bitsetting set to DVD-ROM) to CircuitCity, BestBuy and Sam's Club, spending total of about 3 hours in those stores . Well people, the good news is that EVERY DVD player, DVD surround sustem and TV/DVD combo I tried recognized and played the DVD+R DL disc No stuttering or difficulties searching, etc.

Now to the improper "seamless" layer break. About 65% of players tested smoothly went through the layer change and continued on to the second layer nicely. The other 35% choked on the layer break, just like my Pioneer DVD players at home. And the brand name doesn't matter, because there were, for example, Panasonic's that went through the layer break OK, while some other Panasonic's choked on it. Again, if I fast forwarded through this improper layer break they would all play the second layer just fine. There were only two DVD changers, one Onkyo and another Pioneer (which was a surprise), that had a very stuttering playback of the second layer, but that first layer was OK.

So, my impression is this, if you make a proper DL DVD image (ISO, NRG, IMG, etc.) with a valid break, the success rate of DVD+R DL playback on both layers on modern DVD players is about 97% That is of course with DVD-ROM bitsetting. I think that's very good for such a new technology and once the prices on DL media come down it will become invaluable.

was interesting reading all that. Thanks for the feedback edmund. Any feedback on DL burning is interesting. What I really find interesting after reading all that is that you are really successful with BOTH of your DL burns. Even though nero didn't handle the superbit BSDRAC properly most other players STILL did NOT choke on it other then your pioneer.

I have a few DVD players and my Pioneer is one of my top ones. It's probably overall my favorite. But It does choke on layer breaks even on commercial DVD's which are DL. That's a little annoying and even my cheap apex doesn't pause at all from layer breaks, but the crazy thing is my Pioneer really plays every kind of burned media and even crap media. I burned some really crappy disks about a year ago and I must of tried them on 10 DVD players. ALL of them would skip or pixelate almost every 15 seconds or so, but that was no surprise because the disk was filled with excessive parity errors so it was no surprise. Interestingly enough though, watching the disk in my pioneer, there was absolutely NO skipping or pausing. I couldn't even begin to believe it.

In your case though most other standalones play that dracula superbit disk even though nero didn't handle the Layer break well, and with Monty Python Nero handled it excellent and all the players you've tested it on play it great. That's excellent news for DL and just more positive feedback even when something didn't work out perfectly it still plays on most players. Hope to keep seeing positive feedback like this, good job.

I think that's very good for such a new technology and once the prices on DL media come down it will become invaluable.

No question about it. This is really amazing and I bought the same DL drive as you, the DRU-700A, but I had no intention of burning a DL disk until the price is at least reasonable. Once supply gets going from various media producers, price will drop and drop considerabley. Verbatim can get there little $15/disk from MKM but once supply increases things will change. I'm not in any rush to burn any DL disks, bought the burner because price was a fraction of what I paid for my first burner a few years ago but i've got it when media price is right and then it's on.

Originally Posted by DVDeeZ

Even though nero didn't handle the superbit BSDRAC properly most other players STILL did NOT choke on it other then your pioneer.

I have a few DVD players and my Pioneer is one of my top ones. It's probably overall my favorite. But It does choke on layer breaks even on commercial DVD's which are DL. That's a little annoying and even my cheap apex doesn't pause at all from layer breaks, but the crazy thing is my Pioneer really plays every kind of burned media and even crap media.

DVDeeZ, I'm glad you thought this was an interesting reading

Anyway, just to clear things up, by choking on layer break I really meant that the player just freezes on the DVD+R DL copy of Superbit "BS Dracula" layer break and won't go any further unless you try to fast forward a few seconds ahead, which is a little more annoying than one second long choke.

I think that almost ANY player that usually "chokes" for a second on proper pressed Dual-Layer discs would freeze on improperly authored layer break on DVD+R DL disc. It's something that about 35% of DVD players require - a proper Layer Break flag in IFO file. If your Pioneer (great DVD players by the way, especially the older generation) usually stutters on the layer break it would not play successfully through "seamless" break on DVD+R DL. And that's not only Pioneer, out of those approximately 35% players tested that froze on that disc were some Sony's, Panasonic's and a couple of other brands/models that I forgot.

But of course that's not going to be a problem from now on, because we all learned from this thread how to solve it

With a proper authoring tool (for example DVDMaestro) for your own productions or with proper image copying/burning tools for your movie backups it's all quite possible with Double-Layer DVD+R.

Originally Posted by Frunobulax

Well, Edmund Blackadder's idea of burning in Nero as an image (ISO) worked great for me! Nero left the original layer break in its original place and didn't add another one as it had on the first burn I tried. Thanks!

Well....I tried this and it does not work on my Toshiba player. The layer break is fine and the movie plays but the time and chapter display hangs if it runs through the layer break. If I skip it then time and chapter display fine....

My guess is that the leyer break in the ifo file does not match up with the physical layer break.

Cheers

Is anyone keeping track of what works with DL burning and what doesnt?

Well manufacturers didn’t intend the discs to be used in this manner they made them so “Joe Consumer” can take video from VHS and/or camcorder and hold more video. Although it was inevitable that people (me included) would use a DVD+R DL disc to make a copy of a DVD.

well im confused if you understand that then why did you think they would try to make it perfect for makeing 1 to 1 copies?