DVD+R9 Double Layer first burn: problems with layer switch

Originally Posted by Mvidman

1.) The ISO way using DVD Decrypter and burning the ISO with Nero

Hi Mvidman,

Perhaps because it was an ISO, Nero burned it OK. Which version of Nero are you using anyway? I reported earlier here (about a year ago, before the days of RecordNow 7.2) that I did one DVD in a similar way, except I made a Nero Image file with the help of AnyDVD and the layer break, both physical and IFO, was properly rendered. So I was happy for awhile, except when I noticed that some DVD players had the pixellation galore as soon as the second layer started (Verbatim DL disc with very good recording scans). So that puzzled me and I decided to never try Nero for DL burning again in the near future. That was for image burning. As for VIDEO_TS DL structure, I would still not trust Nero to burn it in video mode. On the other hand, Prassi engine since the early days of DVD burning has always been superb to any other burning engine, and its legacy continues with DL burning with RN 7.3. So why risk with something else when this one definitely works?

Originally Posted by Mvidman

both dvds had a slight pause when switching chapters but did not freeze completely.. unlike some of the other DVD9 backups I had done ONLY in iso mode (I have never used RN up till now). Is this just a lucky conincidence where the layer change point on the commerical dvd just happened to be at the end of a chapter, or is it possible that nero/dvd decryptor have fixed the problem? (at this point I'm just assuming I got lucky.)

I don't know if you got lucky or they really fixed it, because for DL burning I use RN exclusively and very happy with results. As a matter of fact in the past few months I had more trouble with single layer, having coasters popping up sometimes, while all my Verbatim DVD+R DL burns went flawless and with perfect playback. DVDDecrypter was never really broke for DVD9 ISO to DVD+R DL ISO copying. I tried that once and it worked for me. But it will only work if you indeed do a 1:1 copy without the slightest modification. If you do modify - you need to extract your ISO to VIDEO_TS folder and burn with RN. Same applies for self authored DVD9's.

Originally Posted by Mvidman

My second more important question then would be if I have several DVD9 back up copies I had done in ISO format and I wanted to redo them, could I not simply copy them back onto my HD and reburn them using RN 7.3 to ensure a good layer change point?

If you did the 1:1 ISO copying with DVDDecrypter, I think you should be fine. Perhaps if I were you, I'd test at least a couple of those discs on several DVD players, including the layer break point. If that goes well, you don't have to re-burn. But if you burned ISO in Nero, I'd definitely go out and test it. Try to find some newer Pioneer DVD players, as they are the ones that gave me the trouble with Nero ISO burn (even though the layer break was properly recorded). And if you do need to re-burn, you are correct, simply copy VIDEO_TS to your hard drive and let RN 7.3 take care of the rest in Data Mode. However, remember that some DVD's are not properly authored to begin with and RN might reject them (as been reported here earlier). Then you either have to live with ISO-copied discs, or you have to re-author them. Actually, even a simple DVDShrink DL re-author without menus will be easily accepted by RN 7.3. I did that before without any problems, and RN took care of all the layer break issues. Just remember to do it in Data Mode.

But the bootm line for all this is: even if your surrent DVDDecrypter or Nero burned DL DVD's work fine, for the future I would try to burn with RN, simply because of the proven superiority and widest compatibility that the Prassi-based engine provides (even for the single layer discs). To me it's pretty much a peace of mind. There's no guesswork involved when I distribute my DVD's to clients if they are burned with Prassi-based programs. I know that if they end up not playing, it's only because of the media/player incompatibility, but not the burning program's fault. I burned DVD's since 2001 and Prassi engine to me is a clear winner (even though it's unfortunately one of the not-so-popular choices among the burning crowd). However, I must also compliment Sonic on tuning Prassi's engine to a perfection in DL department. Even Prassi ONES doesn't do it right (though ONES is a fantastic program for any other kind of burning). Sonic clearly has an experience with DL. After all they are the ones who own Scenarist. And while Scenarist is not my favourite, it's 90% use for hollywood releases proves it's ability to do things right. Same you get with RN 7.3, it's a small little application that does DVD burning right, and that's it. I'm happy with it.

P.S.: Now that I can actually buy DVD+R DL for $2 to $3 a piece, I may actually try authoring something with DVDMaestro into ISO with the embedded layer break information and just for the heck of it burn it with ImgBurn. I hear it's supposed to preserve and listen to that information when burning DL discs. RN 7.3 did not like Maestro's ISO's (had to do it through VIDEO_TS method), so maybe ImgBurn will be able to do that and save me from doing an extra step. We'll see. Though, even if it works, for the distribution I would still re-rip the ImgBurn-made DL disc to a VIDEO_TS folder and re-burn with RN just to be sure it plays everywhere where DVD+R DL media can be recognized.

Edmund,

Thank you I really apprecaite the feedback. Your the man

I've read through this thread several times, but cannot figure out where I'm going wrong.

I am authoring in Tsunami Mpeg DVDAuthor. I first tried burning in Nero 6.6.0.18. My Toshiba SDV291 played the first layer fine, but choked on the layer break.

Reading through this thread I purchased RN 7.3. Using the settings from the screen shots here https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=286029 and the same VIDEO_TS files I've now created 2 coasters that won't play at all in my Toshiba.

I'm using a BenQ 1640 on Verbatim DL disks.

Edit: Book set is DVD ROM. Anybody have any thoughts?

Originally Posted by ToughRoeToHoe

Reading through this thread I purchased RN 7.3. Using the settings from the screen shots here https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=286029 and the same VIDEO_TS files I've now created 2 coasters that won't play at all in my Toshiba.

I'm using a BenQ 1640 on Verbatim DL disks.

ToughRoeToHoe, I don't really know how to help you. It might be an incompatible burner with RN 7.3. On the other hand, did the DVD+R DL's verify well in RN? Or did they fail even during verify? If they did verify OK, I would try them on another player just to make sure. I know that there are some Toshibas that are very picky with DL media in general.

OK guys and dolls, I have some good news that will make your DVDMaestro DL authoring life a bit easier. However, this will only work if you have a NTFS file system on your hard drive.

First read this post and also the one that it links to:

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1392448#1392448

Also read the second paragraph of this post:

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1392750#1392750

Do everything until the part where is says "Recompile your VIDEO_TS title set again." Instead, open your Disc Image Creation tool in DVDMaestro, point to your properly prepared title set, set the layer break under Properties (read those posts carefully for how to achieve a perfect layer break placement) and point to Create Disc Image button. Compile into IMG file.

Now you can bypass RecordNow, and simply burn it with ImgBurn (I tried with version 1.1.0.0). Here's the ImgBurn setting you must obey in order for the layer break to be exactly as DVDMaestro intended in the IMG file:



This way, and I verified it down to an exact sector number, ImgBurn puts the physical layer break precisely together with the IFO command that DVDMaestro embedded in IMG file. Today I took a couple of hours and tested this DVD+R DL DVD in Best Buy on several kinds of players, including portables, combos and standalones, and there was only one portable Toshiba that refused to play it (but it also could not recognize a DVD-RW disc, so that explains it). Every single player played both layers and had a successful layer transition. Needless to say that every player I own plays this disc without any problems as well.

So, people, this is a good alternative if you have DVDMaestro and want to bypass the PgcEdit/RecordNow method to save time. Both methods seem to produce similarly compatible results with proper and 100% controlled layer break placement. However, do not attempt to modify the IMG file that DVDMaestro produced in any way, shape or form prior to burning with ImgBurn.

Also, this only applies to DVDMaestro's IMG compilations. I didn't try any other authoring programs. If you use other programs, I would still recommend compiling to VIDEO_TS and burn with RecordNow 7.3 for the best results. DVDMaestro was aimed at Hollywood DVD production, so their IMG files are in strict compliance, which helps ImgBurn make a good DL burn. Other DVD authoring programs might not be as compliant, so I would exercise caution before burning their ISO, IMG, etc., files with ImgBurn.

EB, it did verify OK. The Toshiba does seem picky. Unfortunately, my other player is an old Sony DVP S530P. It is even worse than the Toshiba.

I have 2 disks left. I'll give RN a shot with my TS writer. Hopefully it works. If not, I'm going to try the IMGTools/IMGBurn route. I'll post it here if I have any luck.

With your last post, I almost wish I had DVD Maestro. I appreciate you taking the time to answer my question. Regards.

As if I needed to be humbled further. I guess RecordNow can't save me from myself.

After I burned the 1st DL disk with Nero, I opened the VIDEO_TS file with PGCEdit to see if there was something wrong with the layer break. I forgot that I had not removed the PGCEdt backup folder.

I've just burned a copy with RecordNow and the BenQ writer (minus the backup folder). It plays perfectly. My Toshiba runs right through the layer break.

EB, thanks again.

Originally Posted by ToughRoeToHoe

After I burned the 1st DL disk with Nero, I opened the VIDEO_TS file with PGCEdit to see if there was something wrong with the layer break. I forgot that I had not removed the PGCEdt backup folder.

I did the same exact thing, but only once: that unplayable copy taught me not to do it again (and warn everybody else in bold letters about it )

But I'm glad that you got it resolved.

Some people have to experience it first hand .

Originally Posted by ToughRoeToHoe

Some people have to experience it first hand .

I think ours (yes I did it too) is a non-exclusive club for sure!

A tip for youse guys: There is an option setting in PgcEdit (Options, Input/Output) where you can tell it to "store backup in parent folder" rather than VIDEO_TS. Less danger of dragging it into RN7.3 that way!

Originally Posted by MaxBlack

There is an option setting in PgcEdit (Options, Input/Output) where you can tell it to "store backup in parent folder" rather than VIDEO_TS.

Thanks for that tip MaxBlack, that was a good one!

By the way guys, I think I figured out why RecordNow 7.3 sometimes refuses to burn VIDEO_TS structures (formatting errors) of the seemingly OK commercial DL discs. At least in my latest backup attempts it happened on a few DL discs of "Poirot - The Complete Series" Region 2 (UK). It's because of the Parallel Track Path (PTP), which is not compatible with Opposite Track Path (OTP), used in DVD+R DL format. You can pretty much check with any decent DVD information tool if the disc is OTP or PTP. Most pressed DVD9's are OTP (the same as DVD+R DL), but some are still PTP and that could be bad news, to a point.

With PTP discs that I tried to backup, the second layer was larger than the first, which cannot be with OTP. Therefore RN 7.3 had a good reason to refuse to burn it, because there was no place to put a layer break.

Now, if there were many more chapters or cells per title, it would be possible for RN 7.3 to choose one of those spots, but in "Poirot" case each chapter was about 15 to 20 minutes apart, with no new cells anywhere in between. When I did the ISO reading with DVDDecrypter, later I analyzed this ISO file with ImgBurn and it said that there was no valid layer break position that could be pulled off from IFO file. Of course I could attempt to burn it with DVDDecrypter or ImgBurn, but the result would surely be a permanent freeze somewhere in the middle if the DVD (because even ImgBurn reported that it can do nothing about the layer break). Therefore I had to experiment.

After some tests and thinking, my effective working solution, without doing a complete reauthoring, is to simply use DVDRemake Pro and in one of the titles close to the center point of the DVD (may take awhile to find it manually), in some relatively quiet spot simply make a cell split. Do not create a new program, but simply a cell split. Then burn this VIDEO_TS with RecordNow 7.3 and it should work, if you split it a little past the middle point of the DVD. For example, if you have a 7.2GB DVD, you want to find a spot somewhere between 3.6GB and 3.9GB to make a new cell. Though closer to 3.6GB mark would probably be better.

I did already a few of these stubborn PTP backups this way and they all burned and played perfectly, without any need to re-author. RecordNow inserted the IFO layer break information precisely to the cell that I split between the long chapters. Hopefully this will help those of you who get frequent formatting errors on backing up PTP DL discs.

Originally Posted by Edmund Blackadder

...simply use DVDRemake Pro and in one of the titles close to the center point of the DVD (may take awhile to find it manually), in some relatively quiet spot simply make a cell split....

A couple months ago I looked at ReMake Pro's help files and other info, and could find zero reference to "Layer Break" so have never tried it.

You are saying that this tool will easily make a cell to break at?

That might be reason enough to buy it!!!!?

Originally Posted by MaxBlack

You are saying that this tool will easily make a cell to break at?

Yes, that's pretty much the only thing that I use it for. I could not find any other tool that could safely split the cells of the existing VIDEO_TS structure. DVDRemake Pro does it well.

Just follow everything until the Step 2 in this link:

http://www.dimadsoft.com/dvdremakepro/ht_insert_chapter.php

That will make you a new cell. Then to save time, simply select "File -> Export modified files" to a different directory. Only the updates will be re-saved. Then once it's done, simply copy/replace the modified files into your original VIDEO_TS folder and burn with RN 7.3. As I said, I already did a few PTP DL DVD backups this way and they all work great.

This could also work for your own mis-authored DL discs, that you don't feel like re-authoring. Simply search for the middle point and with some playing around you'll find a good spot for a new cell. Just remember not to insert a new program/chapter as that may screw up your menus. Just a simple new cell is the safest trick to get the layer break going where it otherwise wouldn't.

Originally Posted by dimad

Originally Posted by Edmund Blackadder

Just remember not to insert a new program/chapter as that may screw up your menus. Just a simple new cell is the safest trick to get the layer break going where it otherwise wouldn't.

DvdReMake is rather smart and will not do such a nasty thing :P

Sorry dimad, I didn't mean to not-compliment your software . That was just a general statement. I do realize that all the chapter point references in the menus will be relinked with DVDRemake Pro. However, what it will not do is it will not create a change in the actual graphics of the menu and, as far as I can see, will not create a new button for the newly-born chapter either (without destructive re-authoring). Which I totally understand why it basically cannot be done. That's why I just generally rounded it all up to not to create a new chapter to maintain a clean, unmodified user experience. A new cell maintains all that while making a layer break possible. So, thank you for making cell splitting in pre-authored VIDEO_TS sets possible in your software 8).

I've been reading a little bit here and there. So if I understand correctly, all I gotta do is author a dual layer disc and even if I don't set the layer-break, recordnow will do it automatically and there will be no problem with the disc in stand-alone players? Thanks

Originally Posted by nick101181

I've been reading a little bit here and there. So if I understand correctly, all I gotta do is author a dual layer disc and even if I don't set the layer-break, recordnow will do it automatically and there will be no problem with the disc in stand-alone players?

That is correct. Simply author into a VIDEO_TS folder (and not ISO or IMG) and then burn with RN. However, make sure you have enough chapters or cells near the middle point of your DVD compilation, especially if it's a tight fit close to 7.96GB (8152MB) maximum DL capacity. There are some explanations and solutions a few posts back in this thread on the subject of what if RN refuses to burn your DL compilation. And lastly, of course it also helps if your DVD drive can do the DVD-ROM booktype bitsetting

I think I flashed my drive with the dangerous brothers 1.22 firmware. I believe it had a dvd-rom booktype setting for all dvd+r media. I have a pioneer 110d.

Originally Posted by nick101181

I have a pioneer 110d.

Then you're fine. All the Pioneer DVD writers that can burn DVD+R DL, automatically record them with DVD-ROM booktype, even with the official firmwares. I wish they did the same for DVD+R 4.7GB . Well, for that I have a Sony DRU-700A .

Just a quick update from me. Now that DL media prices have dropped quite a bit, I've burned a few more discs.

I'm still using the same burner as before - NEC 3520.
I've upgraded from RecordNow 7.2 to 7.3.

I've tried ripping using DVD Decrypter in "ISO Mode" then writing using DVD Decrypter in "ISO Mode", but the burn would fail at the start of the 2nd layer.

So this is the method I use now:

1. Rip the original DVD using DVD Decrypter in "File Mode".
2. Burn the folder containing the ripped files using RecordNow in data mode.

Now this will usually produce a disc with 2 layer break flags, but all my standalone players play right through those without any hiccups at all. So it works great for me. I don't know if other people will have the same success.

These are the media that worked for me:

Verbatim DVD+R DL at 2.4x - works
Verbatim DVD+R DL at 4.0x - works
Fuji DVD+R DL (RICOHJPND00) at 2.4x - works
Fuji DVD+R DL (RICOHJPND00) at 4.0x - my burner doesn't support this speed

For all the people having trouble doing 1:1 backups of Dual Layer DVD's follow this guide. Nothing is better. PERIOD.


https://www.videohelp.com/~r0lZ/pgcedit/third_party/blutach/Burning%20With%20PgcEdit.htm

Since a number of folks here use RecordNow7.3, I thought I would post that the latest PX Engine from Sonic is labeled pxengine2_08_40d.exe, and once you've implemented that, your RecordNow About... box says

Engine: 208b40d, 1.1.75

I had another problem w/my RN7.3 where the program completely froze-up at the end of a burn, such that I had to "End Now" the app and even re-boot the PC. I dunno if the PX engine is the problem but I asked Sonic Support for a link to the latest and the above is what they gave me.

Isn't it maddening that RN's Update feature seems to do nothing, that you have to ASK FOR engine updates??? Sheesh...

I think before the above I was at 202...something. Hope this one works better!

did you post the engine? I'm having trouble getting it from teh sonic site

also, is it worth getting recordnow version 8?

Originally Posted by joshcali

did you post the engine? I'm having trouble getting it from teh sonic site?

I haven't tried a new engine fron the Sonic site, but just as a note, if you're using a Sony SonicStage software, then once you install the latest version 3.4, your PX engine for RecordNow will also be updated. Now with the new engine I can finally select any CD burning speed for my Pioneer A09XL in RecordNow. Before it was permanently stuck at 32x. SonicStage (also called Connect) is Sony's version of iTunes, etc.. I use it for HiMD (1GB MiniDisc) to PC transfers. It's a free program that incidentally includes a new Sonic engine:

http://www.connect.com/download_cookie.html

Originally Posted by joshcali

also, is it worth getting recordnow version 8?

I haven't tried it. But they have changed the interface again. And strangely, by now I'm actually used to the little cutesy interface of version 7.3. It's actually quite comfortable for everyday use. Version 8 looks more bloated, though as I said I haven't tried it in person.

They have been pestering the crap out of me by email to "upgrade" to v8--must have gotten 50 emails about it (Ok, maybe 25, but a LOT)! I can't see any good reason to do so if you only use RN for burning discs...

@joshcali, no I did not "post the engine". I don't know why Sonic controls the distribution of pxengine the way they do, but if you are a registered user and request the update, they send a link very promptly.

That site has something called:

pxEngine507.exe at 600Kb

The file I got from Sonic is called:

pxengine2_08_40d.exe and is 1566Kb in size.

Something tells me these are not the same updates. Of course I should add however, that if RN is working for you i.e. it ain't broke, then you shouldn't try to fix it (by updating)! It seems I had a bad burn recently which inspired me to ask for the latest from Sonic...

Originally Posted by retiredjoker

For all the people having trouble doing 1:1 backups of Dual Layer DVD's follow this guide. Nothing is better. PERIOD.


https://www.videohelp.com/~r0lZ/pgcedit/third_party/blutach/Burning%20With%20PgcEdit.htm

This Dual Layer burning is driving me crazy. I tried the above method and it worked better than Roxio & DVD Remake Pro. But even the PGCedit mode has a slight 2 second pause. That is still better than RecordNow which will not even burn my disc to completion. Always ends with an error which is not explained by the program.

I tried using RecorNow Premier as I couldnt find version 7.3. Maybe this makes a difference. Also DVD Remake Pro, using the method by Edmund Blackadder, changes the video. The audio gets lower and the picture becomes washed out when I played with WinDVD.

EDIT:
In reading other similar threads, I guess my PGCEdit/IMGBurn was successful after all. This method gave me about a second maybe 2 second pause before continuing. I was under the impression that the disc was supposed to play without any pauses. Go figure, but the technology on this level seems flawed. I mean, its kinda weird to be watching a program only to get a second or 2 pause then continue playing. Thats not natural.