Preserving a classical music Laserdisc collection

[jagabo]

You, and especially your dad, are not going to hear any difference between stereo LPCM and AC3 at 384 kbps.

[fellowweb]

Thank you both for the replies!

I do know that the Creative card will pass the audio along from either optical or Coax SPDIF to the ATI card with no physical connection at all. No mini plug, no stereo to the ATI dongle, no internal cable. The sound card can capture a seperate file in designated format while passing audio to the ATI card to process into a different format.

This is fantastic!

The sound card can capture a seperate file in designated format while passing audio to the ATI card to process into a different format.

If the sound card can directly pass on the LPCM stream to ATI's MMC software, I possibly wouldn't need the LPCM stream in an additional audio file, would I?
Do you know which container format MMC uses if you record LPCM signal?
In your short tests, which video codec did you use in conjunction with the LPCM recording?

Not sure of video options for the Mac Mini, but this may be your best avenue as it is already SPDIF-capable, and as you already have one. The ATI cards I have used are all older, AGP models, have not tested and have seen few reports on their newer, PCI models. What little I have read was not promising.

If you say that you could get it working with the ATI AIW 9000 Pro, this should be fine. Is this the ATI model you referred to?
It definitely sounds like the most comfortable solution possible. Maybe there is a way to borrow a friend's desktop PC with respective equipment for a couple of days.

[fellowweb]

You, and especially your dad, are not going to hear any difference between stereo LPCM and AC3 at 384 kbps.

This is what I have asked myself too in the meantime.
But are you really sure about this?
With good hifi equipment (which is far too costly for me as a student but which my father uses for his classical music), so far I could always hear the difference between audio from CD or from MP3 (EAC rip encoded by LAME @320 kBit/s according to settings by AudioHQ).
Is the audio quality ov AC-3 sound so far superiour to the MP3 codec?

[yoda313]

Is the audio quality ov AC-3 sound so far superiour to the MP3 codec?

That is not a valid comparison for video if this is to be finalized to a dvd. MP3 is not a valid audio codec for dvd. If this is for divx etc... than a comparison would be valid.

Comparing video audio to audio ripped from a cd is not a good comparison in my opion. The formats are different and the intended destination are different.

Ac3 is intended for digital surround sound or stereo while mp3 is mostly just for music in stereo form (though mulitchannel mp3 is available).

But if you are converting from the same source why not test it yourself? Do one test with lpcm and the other with ac3. Then you'll be your own best judge.

But I would tend to agree with jagabo that you wouldn't tell any difference at the same bitrate.

[SHS]

I agree with jagabo
By today standerd MP3 it is low end vs AAC or even AC3.
On the HD-PVR there no way control the audio setting so this the max on AAC=128kBit/s and AC3=384kBit/s

[jagabo]

I don't think you'll hear any difference but if our intent is archiving/preservation it makes sense to get at the uncompressed data.

I'd be a bit cautious about the AIW cards. From what I hear they can be quite finicky -- especially driver issues.

[fellowweb]

Is the audio quality ov AC-3 sound so far superiour to the MP3 codec?

That is not a valid comparison for video if this is to be finalized to a dvd. MP3 is not a valid audio codec for dvd. If this is for divx etc... than a comparison would be valid.

I am aware of this and should have lined it out before. I just wanted to use my experience in a related field to explain my cautiousness regarding compressed codecs.

Comparing video audio to audio ripped from a cd is not a good comparison in my opion. The formats are different and the intended destination are different.

Definitely true, however, in my case the destination is the same: A good hifi equipment which might be able to produce different results with AC3 compared to LPCM. But you are entirely right, of course. My comparison wasn't well chosen.

But if you are converting from the same source why not test it yourself? Do one test with lpcm and the other with ac3. Then you'll be your own best judge.

I would love to hear a judgement from someone audiophile whether AC3 is an option upfront. Simply because if this wasn't the case, I wouldn't even bother buying the Hauppauge HD PVR as it only supports this (maybe in my case uninteresting) format.

But I would tend to agree with jagabo that you wouldn't tell any difference at the same bitrate.

I don't think you'll hear any difference but if our intent is archiving/preservation it makes sense to get at the uncompressed data.

I surely do not want to offend anyone nor to be ignorant/narrow-minded because I really appreciate everyone's help here. Just - as jagabo says - I intend to archive the LD material only once. And therefore, giving up the least possible amount of quality seems to be quite advantageous to me. I most probably won't ever allow someone to get near me with some form of analog video again after my LD odyssey.

I'd be a bit cautious about the AIW cards. From what I hear they can be quite finicky -- especially driver issues.

In the meantime, I have found out that they don't seem to be sold anymore - at least in Germany. Even on eBay (Germany) they are pretty rare. Today someone told me that current graphic cards usually don't have video inputs anymore. Are you aware of any alternative graphic cards which have a good reputation for driver and software support?

[Nelson37]

Installing an AIW with the original drivers and software is a piece of cake. It is when upgrading drivers or software that problems sometimes occur, mainly because of multiple components.

You could try a Hauppage just for the video, and record the audio seperately. Hauppage software farily solid in terms of installation, if you are willing to trade ease of install for barely usable crap in terms of functionality.

[jman98]

But I would tend to agree with jagabo that you wouldn't tell any difference at the same bitrate.

I don't think you'll hear any difference but if our intent is archiving/preservation it makes sense to get at the uncompressed data.

I surely do not want to offend anyone nor to be ignorant/narrow-minded because I really appreciate everyone's help here. Just - as jagabo says - I intend to archive the LD material only once. And therefore, giving up the least possible amount of quality seems to be quite advantageous to me. I most probably won't ever allow someone to get near me with some form of analog video again after my LD odyssey.

The odds are quite high that you and your dad wouldn't hear any difference between high bitrate AC3 and LPCM. But can I give you 100% assurance that you and your dad both do not have freakishly good hearing that can tell a difference? No.

If your musical programs are recorded 1 to a DVD and the program lasts 60 minutes or less, you can just use LPCM. Even at maximum video bit rates you can easily still use LPCM audio and not fill up the DVD.

[creamyhorror]

I would love to hear a judgement from someone audiophile whether AC3 is an option upfront. Simply because if this wasn't the case, I wouldn't even bother buying the Hauppauge HD PVR as it only supports this (maybe in my case uninteresting) format.

Most audiophiles would, I gather, go for lossless. A few of them can hear the difference between lossy and lossless formats, but most just want that assurance that nothing is being lost. Ask on HydrogenAudio or Audioholics if you want opinions.

[fellowweb]

Again a sincere thank you to all of you devoting your time to my questions!

I think that I have gained a pretty solid understanding now and I look forward to archiving the LDs. Sure, it will still take some time before I can get started. However, I would be glad to sum up my experiences afterwards in a concluding post here.

You could try a Hauppage just for the video, and record the audio seperately. Hauppage software farily solid in terms of installation, if you are willing to trade ease of install for barely usable crap in terms of functionality.

Can you suggest a (not too pricey) software package where I might have to trade good functionality for a barely usable install?

[bxd]

Hi,

I spotted this post via a link from AVforums and I thought I’d join up to contribute.

In all of your discussions you haven’t said anything about the audio quality on the laserdiscs. There has been an assumption that they have digital audio but that may not be the case as many older laserdiscs only carry an analogue stereo audio track.

I don’t know how old some of the laserdiscs are but I suspect that you may have a mixture of titles that contain analogue (regular laserdisc stereo) and digital audio tracks.

More recent discs may have digital audio tracks (CD quality) but those discs will have no analogue audio tracks. The disc sleeve should indicate if the disc has a digital (CD quality) audio track.

Is the LD player connected to an amplifier via its stereo audio outputs?
or via it’s digital (optical) connection?
or both?

If your father only has the stereo outputs connected then he’s listening to analogue audio from the LD player. That may be either, analogue audio or D/A converted digital audio off the LD.

I strongly agree with Slayer666 that your simplest option is to use a dvd-recorder to record your collection. Personally I’d use a dvd-recorder with a hard drive so that you can edit (and add chapter mark) your recordings before you transfer them onto disc. Failing that, using one of the Canopus or Elgato units could be used to capture video and audio to your computer.

With regards to video, the Sony LD players were a little unusual in that they could output an rgb signal directly to the rgb (scart) input on a tv. These players did the conversion from composite video to rgb in the LD player rather than sending composite video to the tv. On some of these models, the rgb output from the player was considered superior to the regular (composite) video output. However, I don’t think that the difference between rgb and composite video was that great on the Sony 850. If you were to do your recordings on a dvd - recorder you could compare both inputs to see which one gives you the best recording. (I don’t think the canopus or elgato units have rgb inputs so you would be restricted to composite video if you went that route).

Audio wise, if you have a LD with regular (analogue) stereo tracks, then you’d simply feed this into the dvd-recorder as is (i.e. composite video + L&R audio or as rgb video + L&R audio).

I’d just do the same thing with a LD with a digital audio track_ it does mean that the LD player is doing a D/A conversion from LPCM (on the LD) and the dvd recorder is doing a A/D conversion back to LPCM but I don’t think that’s too big a problem. I think that this route is a lot less bother than trying to sync up a video stream and an audio stream on your computer.

If you record in XP mode (on a Panasonic dvd recorder*) you can record video and LPCM audio to dvd. However, recordings in this mode are restricted to a maximum length of 1 hr (you might squeeze on a few extra minutes) on the disc. That should allow you to record a disc ‘side’ to a single dvd. You should be no worse off than in your current situation (OK you’d have to change the dvd over for the second disc side but that’s just like the good old days of LD before auto reverse mechanisms) with one dvd per LD disc side.

On my machine, you can copy from the hard drive to a double layer disc so I presume that you can use that option to record in XP mode (with LPCM audio) for up to ~1hr 45min. However, I’ve never tried to do that so you’d need to ask your dealer about doing so. Double layer discs are relatively expensive so you’d need to take that into account as

However, if you haven’t been using the digital optical output from the LD player, you may find it acceptable to do a longer recording (to get both sides of the LD onto a single dvd) and to use the Dolby Digital 2.0 audio recording format used by the recorder. While this is a ‘lossy’ recording method it may sound very similar to the original audio track (as others have suggested).

Finally, Does your father actually watch the discs?
If he simply listens to the audio, he may not want (or need) the video information.
If he just listens to the discs, then you could simply record the audio off to another medium (CD or pc) and preserve that separately.

Ultimately it’s up to you how much you want to spend to do this. If you have more cash Panasonic do sell some blu-ray recorders (with HD-satellite tuners _ I’m not sure if they are available in Germany). With a blue ray recorder and recording standard definition video in XP mode onto HDD and ultimately onto a blu-ray disc, I presume that you would be able to record two disc sides (or three) onto a single recording on a blu-ray disc.
That would also allow you to record things like the BBC proms in Hi-Def video and audio.

Also, many of the concerts that you father owns will be appearing on bluray (or on dvd) so it would be worth while finding out the cost of buying the material on dvd (or bluray) rather than transferring material from LD. I appreciate that this might be expensive as classical material often is.

Brian

(*other machines from Sony and Pioneer do similar things)

[fellowweb]

Hi Brian,

Thank you for your comprehensive and helpful post!

In all of your discussions you haven’t said anything about the audio quality on the laserdiscs. There has been an assumption that they have digital audio but that may not be the case as many older laserdiscs only carry an analogue stereo audio track.

You are right. Probably for two reasons I omitted mentioning this: First, when I looked through the LD sleeves the last time I was at my parents', I saw that nearly all LDs have digital audio (most of them "DDD", some "ADD"). Second, I assumed that even for the (very few) LDs with analogue audio it would be fine to use the LD player's S/PDIF out. Am I wrong? (I know this might be entirely different with one of the digital audio systems used in movies. But they - quite plausibly - weren't used on any of my father's LDs.)

Is the LD player connected to an amplifier via its stereo audio outputs? or via it’s digital (optical) connection? or both?

I have to admit that I was to lazy last time to creep behind the LD player in order to check. I assume that the analog stereo out is connected to the amplifier. Probably this hasn't been my focus as I thought the S/PDIF would be the best option for the purpose of archiving the LDs' content.

I strongly agree with Slayer666 that your simplest option is to use a dvd-recorder to record your collection. Personally I’d use a dvd-recorder with a hard drive so that you can edit (and add chapter mark) your recordings before you transfer them onto disc. Failing that, using one of the Canopus or Elgato units could be used to capture video and audio to your computer.

Using a DVD (or BD as you suggest later) recorder seems to be a very appealing solution - even for capturing the LPCM signal in XP mode. Lately I remembered recorders (be it DVD, Blu-Ray or hard disk only) which support a PC connection. As I don't require ending up with optical discs (as archiving media), I could also use one of those players simply to capture video/audio and subsequently copy it to the PC. Maybe recorders with integrated HDDs support longer playing times if the target medium isn't the optical disc!? Then I wouldn't even need to bother e.g. about the 60min restriction in the XP mode of a DVD recorder, would I?

With regards to video, the Sony LD players were a little unusual in that they could output an rgb signal directly to the rgb (scart) input on a tv. These players did the conversion from composite video to rgb in the LD player rather than sending composite video to the tv. On some of these models, the rgb output from the player was considered superior to the regular (composite) video output. However, I don’t think that the difference between rgb and composite video was that great on the Sony 850. If you were to do your recordings on a dvd - recorder you could compare both inputs to see which one gives you the best recording. (I don’t think the canopus or elgato units have rgb inputs so you would be restricted to composite video if you went that route).

Very interesting aspect, thank you! Do you (by chance) have further information with respect to the MDP-650D? (If not, I'd simply try out both options.)

I’d just do the same thing with a LD with a digital audio track_ it does mean that the LD player is doing a D/A conversion from LPCM (on the LD) and the dvd recorder is doing a A/D conversion back to LPCM but I don’t think that’s too big a problem. I think that this route is a lot less bother than trying to sync up a video stream and an audio stream on your computer.

More and more, I also come to the conclusion that D/A-A/D conversion should be fine. With respect to my German heritage/roots, it probably took some time to get over this typical hindering aspiration to technical perfectionism.

If you record in XP mode (on a Panasonic dvd recorder*) you can record video and LPCM audio to dvd. However, recordings in this mode are restricted to a maximum length of 1 hr (you might squeeze on a few extra minutes) on the disc. That should allow you to record a disc ‘side’ to a single dvd. You should be no worse off than in your current situation (OK you’d have to change the dvd over for the second disc side but that’s just like the good old days of LD before auto reverse mechanisms) with one dvd per LD disc side.

On my machine, you can copy from the hard drive to a double layer disc so I presume that you can use that option to record in XP mode (with LPCM audio) for up to ~1hr 45min. However, I’ve never tried to do that so you’d need to ask your dealer about doing so. Double layer discs are relatively expensive so you’d need to take that into account as

Switching discs wouldn't be an issue at all. Thank you for the reference to double layer DVDs - great idea for LDs with slightly more than 60 minutes.

Finally, Does your father actually watch the discs?

Yes, he does. He has most of the LDs' music also on CDs. However, he enjoys very much having the combination of video with CD quality audio on one medium.

Ultimately it’s up to you how much you want to spend to do this. If you have more cash Panasonic do sell some blu-ray recorders (with HD-satellite tuners _ I’m not sure if they are available in Germany). With a blue ray recorder and recording standard definition video in XP mode onto HDD and ultimately onto a blu-ray disc, I presume that you would be able to record two disc sides (or three) onto a single recording on a blu-ray disc.

I assume that BD recorders are designed for recording HD content. Would they in any way convert (/upscale) the SD content (which wouldn't be necessary in my opinion)? Looking through the BD article on Wikipedia, I couldn't find information whether BD recorders would support recording LPCM. Do they?

Also, many of the concerts that you father owns will be appearing on bluray (or on dvd) so it would be worth while finding out the cost of buying the material on dvd (or bluray) rather than transferring material from LD. I appreciate that this might be expensive as classical material often is.

Sure, good point. The audiophile's argument against using DVDs for classical music seemed to be the audio compression typical of this medium. I saw that there are lossless codecs on Blue-ray e.g. with Dolby TrueHD. I don't know to what extent they are used for classical music content on BD yet.

Again, thank you very much for your helpful insights!

[bxd]

Hi,

My comment about the connection was to make sure that your father was actually listening to the digital audio output. If he does not have an optical connection between the LD player and the amp then he is simply listening to the analogue outputs of the player and the digital audio is undergoing a D/A conversion within the player. That’s no different than listening to the stereo outputs on a CD player rather than it’s digital output via the D/A conversion in the amp.

Laserdiscs (or Laservision as Philips called it on the early discs) that only have analogue audio will not be output via the digital connector, so you might want to check how things are connected. It may be that your father has both connections made and that the amplifier defaults to the analogue output when there is no digital signal present.

It sounds as if most of your discs are digital stereo. If they are all PAL discs then, they won’t have any other type of audio on them. PAL discs are Digital only and do not carry Dolby Digital (ac-3) audio.

I don’t think that there are any dvd recorders that allow a connection to a pc to do what you want to do.

Sorry_ I thought you mentioned the Sony MDP-850 LD player. I do have a review (in Laserdisc Review Magazine) of the MDP-650D (from 1993) and it suggested that the RGB output was worth considering with the monitors of the time (a high quality Sony professional PVM-2730 video monitor). However, the review also suggested that the colour intensity was better with the composite video output. As far as recording to dvd is concerned you can use the RGB or composite video inputs_ I’d just suggest that you try both types and see which looks best.

As well as recording HD, you can use a BD-recorder to record standard definition video (have a look at the manual for the Panasonic recorders on the Panasonic web site). In fact bluray recorders have NO HD inputs apart from their satellite tuners and AVCHD card readers slots. They do have standard definition inputs. I presume that you can record in XP mode with LPCM and transfer longer recordings (greater than 1hr) to bluray discs but I’d check that out before I went out to buy one. There isn’t much thought given to LPCM quality audio on dvd (as many people are quite happy without it) but it’s probably still an option.

A blue ray recorder (or a regular dvd-recorder) will ‘upscale’ the SD recordings to display them on a HD monitor with HDMI inputs.

While I’m sure there are classical music dvds with LPCM audio it looks as if the market for blu-ray classical material is picking up. Unfortunately, the classical market usually commands premium amounts for the material, so it’s not likely to be cheap.

I’ve mainly transferred movies from LD to dvd. The big problem there is that you can’t record the Dolby Digital audio track so I haven’t done too many. Unfortunately, I’ve never owned any of the classical LD catalogue so I’ve never had the need to transfer it to dvd. However, I must have a go at transferring some suitable material. I don’t have many PAL titles that have digital audio tracks but I’ll see what I can find.

Brian

[fellowweb]

Hi Brian,

I think I understand the analog vs. digital audio issue, thank you.

It is very impressive that you still could find a review of this MDP. Thanks a lot for the information!

As well as recording HD, you can use a BD-recorder to record standard definition video (have a look at the manual for the Panasonic recorders on the Panasonic web site). In fact bluray recorders have NO HD inputs apart from their satellite tuners and AVCHD card readers slots. They do have standard definition inputs. I presume that you can record in XP mode with LPCM and transfer longer recordings (greater than 1hr) to bluray discs but I’d check that out before I went out to buy one. There isn’t much thought given to LPCM quality audio on dvd (as many people are quite happy without it) but it’s probably still an option.

A blue ray recorder (or a regular dvd-recorder) will ‘upscale’ the SD recordings to display them on a HD monitor with HDMI inputs.

While I’m sure there are classical music dvds with LPCM audio it looks as if the market for blu-ray classical material is picking up. Unfortunately, the classical market usually commands premium amounts for the material, so it’s not likely to be cheap.

Thank you for the further information. I will check whether BD recorder are an option with respect to XP mode/LPCM. In addition, I will do some more research regarding BD classical material.

I’ve mainly transferred movies from LD to dvd. The big problem there is that you can’t record the Dolby Digital audio track so I haven’t done too many. Unfortunately, I’ve never owned any of the classical LD catalogue so I’ve never had the need to transfer it to dvd. However, I must have a go at transferring some suitable material. I don’t have many PAL titles that have digital audio tracks but I’ll see what I can find.

Good luck then. I'd highly appreciate if I you shared your experience afterwards again.

[bxd]

Hi Fellowweb,

I've made a test dvd. It's ntsc (as I don't have any 'suitable' PAL material

Drop me a pm with your name and address and I'll send you a copy.

Brian