No Subsciption-free DVR + DVD-Recorder Combo in USA???

mltwitz · Member Joined: 19 Jul 2005 Location: Texas

I just came back from Germany and saw that there DVD-Recorder+DVR Combo set-top devices are extremely popular and cheap (<$300, you can even buy it at Aldi!) and don't require any subscription service like TiVo. I started surfing the web to find recorders like this here in the US and it seems this type of subscription-less combo does not exist here. Is it possible we are getting ripped off by companies like TiVO and are being charged for a service that should be free in the first place while in other countries this technology exists without subscription? I found in the US you can either buy a DVR which all require a subscription in order to fully work (I still don't understand why I have to subscribe to a service that is already provided by my cable provider) or a DVD-recorder with internal hard drive which seem to have become very rare and expensive (>$800), but are there also combos? Maybe I have overlooked certain playeres/brands? Can someone help me/recomend stand-alone devices with the following features:

- ATSC tuner
- internal hard drive (at least 40GB)
- DVD burner
- Video editing
- DVR type capability (TV channel guide, program selcetion/recording) WITHOUT subscription service

Thanks in advance

jman98 · Member Joined: 08 Oct 2004 Location: Freedonia

I have asked a somewhat similar question about DVRs - is it possible to buy any WITHOUT a subscription? People both here on these forums and those I know who own Tivos (I don't have one, I was interested for a family member) all swear that Tivos can indeed be bought without paying a subscription and used like a VCR where you manually program in what you want to record.

I am not sure if any combos like you propose exist here. DVD recorders have not sold well here and many companies have abandoned the US market for them. DVD recorders with hard drives are almost impossible to find now. My gut feeling is that there is no single device available in the USA that can do what you want. Those who make DVRs don't make it easy to get the video off of them and onto a DVD as Hollyweird doesn't want you to do that and the companies that sell DVRs here do everything that Hollyweird asks them to do.

wabjxo · Member Joined: 22 Sep 2007 Location: United States

The perfect HDD DVDR for you is the Philips DVDR3575H/37, which has a 160GB HDD and NTSC/ATSC/QAM tuners.

This was a 2007-2008 model, still available, and Philips is soon (Apr-May) coming out with the 3576, which uses the same manual so it'll essentially operate the same.

Click my signature for lots of info on both units.

jjeff · Posted: Apr 11, 2008 10:27

I second Wajo's suggestion. The 3575 should do all you want with possibly the exception of what you meant by "(TV channel guide, program selcetion/recording)" . The 3575 uses a VCR type programmer. It's not a TV guide service like Tivo.
Tivo is also available for $699 for a lifetime subscription + the ~$300 unit, but Tivo lacks the DVD burner.
Your only "real" choice would be the 3575, but note like all DVDR's it's only SD, but if recording off a HD channel I'd call it more "HD lite" like. Much better than a analog DVDR or a VCR.
Magnavox makes a "cheaper" similar unit and Polaroid makes even a "cheaper" unit, but again like I said you really only have one "real" choice. I couldn't in good conscience suggest those last 2.

mltwitz · Member Joined: 19 Jul 2005 Location: Texas

"The 3575 should do all you want with possibly the exception of what you meant by "(TV channel guide, program selcetion/recording)" . The 3575 uses a VCR type programmer. It's not a TV guide service like Tivo."

Why is that? Why can't the DVD-Recorder retrieve the channel lineup through the cable box and use it for recording programming? Why do I need TiVO to be able to do that? The devices in Germany showed a simple channel lineup that I guess was fed through the cable box and you just had to checkmark the shows you wanted to record. No need for an additional "Nazi"-Pay-Service.

Anyway, thanks for all your advice!

wabjxo · Member Joined: 22 Sep 2007 Location: United States

A TVGOS feature is available on older units and is implemented in FW, for the most part. Pioneer 53x/63x series did a bad job in that implementation and left a bad taste for an otherwise excellent HDD recorder. Pioneer produced the Pio 640, but left out any Title transfer, even from a Title you gave in the Timer rec menu. They had to refurbish/replace many units till we found the FW download online that they refused to make available. Panasonic produced the 2006 55 and 75 models with TVGOS that would work with satellite, but new ones no TVGOS (I believe). Then the switch to digital complicated things since the old TVGOS was analog in VBI. Shortly thereafter, Pio announced it was exiting the DVD recorder business, at least for the U.S. market... they must have had some designs/work done on new units cuz Canada got some, but don't think there'll be a Pio DVDR in the North American future... ???

jjeff · Posted: Apr 11, 2008 13:29

'06 was the last year for TVGOS in the Panny's and with the exception of analog tuner would really fit the bill for the OP. Another thought if you really wanted guide type programming and could give up the DVDR (but would gain "true HD") would be the soon to be released Echostar TR-50. Everyone's hoping it doesn't turn out to be vapor wear. I think July?? was the last date I read. Oh the big catch for most, it's for OTA only.
Truthfully with the exception of guide programming(which doesn't bother me in the least) the Philips would really be the only choice. For whatever reason Europe has a far bigger selection of what you want, but due to standards they won't work for the US.
Link to Echostar thread if interested.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=972197

CrazyCanuck · Member Joined: 13 Oct 2005 Location: Canada

We still have a good selection of DVDR/HDD recorders here in Canada and I suspect for the fact that we are not going ATSC for now (wish we were) allows Pioneer (and others) to sell out some of their NTSC-only based recorders stock here (and other NTSC-based areas) whereas if they wanted to sell in the US, the recorders needed to be produced/fitted with an ATSC tuner or no tuner at all so I guess they decided to stand back for a while.

We are seeing signs that the current batch of NTSC Pioneer HDD recorders (650K, 250GB) are running out, one of our big box stores (Future Shop) had them on sale last week and called it a clearance sale. Hopefully DVDR/HDD recorders will be back once the ATSC system turnover is succesful and stable.

jjeff · Posted: Apr 11, 2008 16:16

IMO Canada has seen the last of it's Pannys and Pios w/hdd's. From what I have read Canada will now get the Panasonic EZ line (with digital tuners) and I really doubt they will import one with a HDD. If they do I may seriously consider one during my yearly trip to Canada(Thunder Bay/Terrace Bay Ontario area).

mltwitz · Member Joined: 19 Jul 2005 Location: Texas

After reading all this I think I will consider recording TV on my PC and edit/burn it from there, as I really insist on some type of guide programming (TVGOS) and I absolutely refuse paying one cent for the TiVO scam, as a matter of principle.

Here we go...any suggestions for a good PC TV Tuner Card?

orsetto · Member Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Location: NYC

The FreeView-style off-air program guide available in Europe is much better implemented than the the TV Guide On Screen system that failed spectacularly here in the USA. Although FreeView has advertising, etc, there does seem to be some minimal oversight by government agencies to keep it workable. The system in America is unfortunately tied to the ever-drowning and scrambling for money "TV Guide" syndicate, and while some thought TVGOS was better than nothing most find it too messy to be worth the effort.

In the USA, TiVO was in place several years before TVGOS. One can object to TiVO fees on principle, but Americans LOVE the way it operates and the free TVGOS system pales in comparison. Also, the USA has the highest usage in the world of recording cable/satellite boxes- a phenomenon virtually unknown most everywhere else. Many of these boxes can record in HDTV, and their embedded TiVO-like program guide is perfectly integrated with the cable/satellite service. Most important of all, these boxes rent for a trivial amount of money: between the integrated program guide and low monthly cost, these boxes have virtually wiped out the market for DVD/HDD recorders in the USA.

By some miracle, our largest retailer (Wal*Mart) decided there was still a good business in selling DVD/HDD recorders to the small subgroup of Americans who are too peculiar or too cheap to rent the cable/satellite recorders. They convinced Phillips to make at least one model compatible with our new digital ATSC broadcasts. That model 3575 has been a runaway success, partially because its a nice unit but mostly because its the ONLY such recorder available in most USA cities. Earlier Phillips units were none too good, so all of us here are hoping the new successor model 3576 is identical or at least equal in quality to the 3575.

As for me, awhile back I picked a couple of low-end Pioneer Canada DVD-HDD recorders online at a decent price and plan on wearing them out slowly. I've been using Pioneers for three years now, I like the way they work, and I don't need an ATSC tuner because I tape from my cable service line outputs. I'm stuck juggling the recorder timer and my cable box timer simultaneously, which isn't ideal, but worth the compromise to be able to edit and archive my recordings (this is not possible using those super-popular "recording cable boxes").

jman98 · Member Joined: 08 Oct 2004 Location: Freedonia