CPU upgrade options

[rhegedus]

Anyway.....

After being impressed with the HP Pavilion Slimline s7600n that I bought in the US for my mom, I've now bought a similar one for myself here in the UK - the s7620.uk. Unfortunately, I didn't get the freebee X2 CPU that my first purchase had, just a standard x3500+.....

So, I'd like to upgrade this to a X2 5000+ but the Hp site specs are unclear as to what the max CPU I can install is.

The motherboard is a Asus A8MN-BR (a.k.a. Hematite-GL8E) and supports Socket AM2 Athlon 64 X2.

I've looked on the Asus website but the motherboard isn't listed under either name, and HP support didn't really know what they were talking about when they said that the maximum CPU I could install was a X2 4200+ because of the board FSB:

Me: isn't the FSB speed the same for all AM2 sockets?

HP operator: No. The FSB varies according the processor

The AMD site doesn't really make much distinction between the X2 range, the only differences being the TDP.

So, what are my options?

[John]

I have the same mother board running 4200, I couldnt really push the extra cash back in november for the 4600, but im 100% positive the guy in the shop told me the board goes up to 5000. if i wanted to upgrade it later.
had a quick look for the box, probably tossed it, but ill see if i can find the manual, like i said im pretty sure it does.

[John]

sorry I got it wrong I have the Asus A8N SLI SE. that does go up to 5000.

[RLT69]

Me: isn't the FSB speed the same for all AM2 sockets?

HP operator: No. The FSB varies according the processor

The operator is correct. There is no FSB with Athlon 64 CPUs. AMD incorporated the memory controller into the CPU:

"As the memory controller is integrated onto the CPU die, there is no FSB for the system memory to base its speed upon."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athlon_64

This is fairly common knowledge.

When you talk about FSB, you are talking about Hyper-Transport when it comes to Athlon 64 CPUs. Hyper-Transport is not the same for all AM2 sockets. Give newegg.com a look and you'll see different ranges:

800MHz Hyper Transport (1600MT/s)
1000MHz Hyper Transport (2000 MT/s)

To recap:

1. the Memory controller (FSB) varies according to CPU
2. the Hyper-Transport varies among the same socket type.

[rhegedus]

According to the AMD site, the HT is 2000 MHz bidirectional for all X2s:

http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/0,,30_118_9485_13041%5E13076,00.html

Wiki suggests this too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athlon_64_X2


I don't know what to think now

[oldandinthe way]

Can you get your mother to open her box and determine if she has the same motherboard?

[ken.bosley]

The HP support person you talked with gave you the correct answer but not the correct reason why.

The limit is due to the TDP for the motherboard and power supply not the FSB. Only 35 watt processors are supported in the current HP Slimline S7600. Currently the maximum CPU for the AMD based HP Slimline PC is 4200+ x2. This may change in the future as AMD announces new energy effiecent processors at higher numbers.

[rhegedus]

Can you get your mother to open her box and determine if she has the same motherboard?

Yep, it's the same.

[rhegedus]

The HP support person you talked with gave you the correct answer but not the correct reason why.

The limit is due to the TDP for the motherboard and power supply not the FSB. Only 35 watt processors are supported in the current HP Slimline S7600. Currently the maximum CPU for the AMD based HP Slimline PC is 4200+ x2. This may change in the future as AMD announces new energy effiecent processors at higher numbers.

Which is what I thought might be the case, but the 4200 runs at 65W:



If 65W is the max then could I run a X2 5000?

[ken.bosley]

OEMs have access to certain processors that are not available in retail. The information on the AMD website generally refers to retail boxed processors unless you are in the password protected areas or are looking tech spec sheets.

Trust me. I'm the product manager for the HP Slimline PC at HP, the information I'm giving you about TDP is accurate. I can also tell you that if you put a 65w processor in the Hematite motherboard you will fry the VRM.

I don't know what AMD's retail roadmap is (even if I knew it I'm covered by NDA), but I can tell you that the maximum processor of 4200+ x2 (35watt) is correct at the present time for s7000 Slimline.

Also, I'd say that you may want to stick with what you have given the cost of upgrading and the marginal performance difference. Depending on what benchmark you use the 3500+ actually outperforms the 3800+x2. For instance in iTunes 6 the 3500+ gets 2:20 and 3800+ x2 is 2:31 (mms; lower is better)

For more info see:
http://www23.tomshardware.com/cpu.html?modelx=33&model1=480&model2=489&chart=181

BTW the US and UK motherboards are not the same. The US uses almost all Pyrite MB which have a PCI slot and the UK uses almost all Hematite MB which has a PCI-e X16 slot.

[rhegedus]

Ah, thank goodness you're on this forum, and thanks for your valuable information.

Most of my PC work is video related, so the benefit of the X2 would not be lost.

Now, I need to clear something up regarding TDP: Is this a reference to the power drawn by the CPU or the energy dissipated as heat under full stress.

If it is the former, would the Bryce 105W PSU supplied in the slimlines cope, or, if the latter, would better cooling (such as a Zalman CNPS8000) allow a higher CPU upgrade (I notice the CPU fan assembly in the Slimline is actually offset from the heatsink by about 1" so I don't know if better cooling would be more protective).

Once again, thankyou for your time and answers.

[rhegedus]

BTW the US and UK motherboards are not the same. The US uses almost all Pyrite MB which have a PCI slot and the UK uses almost all Hematite MB which has a PCI-e X16 slot.

Yep.

The US model uses a PCI dial-up-modem card and the UK model ises a PCI-E VGA card.

The extra grunt of the VGA card wins hands down

Strangely, the US model only ships with 512Mb DDR as opposed to the 1Gb on the UK model - any reason?

[Capmaster]

Strangely, the US model only ships with 512Mb DDR as opposed to the 1Gb on the UK model - any reason?

Yours fits more. You guys mount your RAM on the left side of the motherboard

[ken.bosley]

TDP is the total input power to the CPU. In order to support a higher CPU you need power supply and VRM (voltage regulator module). The VRM is built into the motherboard. There is no way to upgrade the VRM short of replacing the motherboard.

[ken.bosley]

Exact SKU configs (RAM, CPU, HDD, ODD selection) are driven by market forces in the regions. Price point, retailer shelf logic, customer demand all figure into it.

My observation is that in gerneral the EMEA customers value graphics cards and memory more than CPU, whereas US folks seem to look only at the CPU speed. EMEA seems to sell at slightly higher price points also.

I agree I would much rather have the graphics card than the POTS modem but dial up is still a requirement in the USA.

BTW Both motherboard have 2 DIMM slots it's just that the UK motherboard is right hand drive.

[rhegedus]

TDP is the total input power to the CPU. In order to support a higher CPU you need power supply and VRM (voltage regulator module). The VRM is built into the motherboard. There is no way to upgrade the VRM short of replacing the motherboard.

According to AMD the 35W CPUs are 1.025V/1.075V and 65W CPUs are 1.20V/1.25V. What is the VRM range on the Hematite MB?

So, if I'm pegged to a 35W CPU and these aren't even on sale anywhere I've looked then I'm stuck with the single core 3500+



Thanks again for your help.

[RabidDog]

You bought the wrong PC, if your work is video related. Surely some sort of alienware brute monster (quad core, 2xgfx cards, 550w psu) would have been far better, rather than a slimline punoid desktop machine. Nice to hear from the inside, bosley-tom-bosley.

[rhegedus]

Most of my PC work is video related but in all honesty it's now become more of a hobby.

I just liked the small form factor look as opposed to one of those teenage angst Alienware jobbies

[ken.bosley]

You bought the wrong PC, if your work is video related. Surely some sort of alienware brute monster (quad core, 2xgfx cards, 550w psu) would have been far better, rather than a slimline punoid desktop machine. Nice to hear from the inside, bosley-tom-bosley.

Well this a matter of perspective. If you look at the benchmark above the absolute fastest machine got through it in 99 seconds and the AMD 3500+ (the same one he has) got though it in 142 seconds.

So by spending three times as much you can get something that runs 30% faster. Is that a good deal? If you do use the machine for that all day, every day for a living then the faster machine might have a reasonable ROI. However, if it is not your primary work machine I'd question if it makes sense to spend that extra cash.

In addition, one could argue that he can replace his machine three times as often and that his average performance will be better. Looking at our roadmap, I predict in 12-18 months the HP Slimline he will be able to buy (at the same price point as his current Slimline) will easily exceed the perfromance of the fastest machine you can get today.

Obviously I'm extremely biased, but what I think you should do is buy a new HP Slimline every 12 months and give your old one to a friend as Xmas present. :P

[ken.bosley]

Hematite VRM supports 35 watt only (not just voltage, it's also amp limited)

[rhegedus]

If you look at the benchmark above the absolute fastest machine got through it in 99 seconds and the AMD 3500+ (the same one he has) got though it in 142 seconds.

But for applications that can use two cores, the results are dramatically different....

http://www23.tomshardware.com/cpu.html?modelx=33&model1=480&model2=489&chart=177

[Scorpion King]

Buy a computer from HP every 12 months

[ken.bosley]

If you look at the benchmark above the absolute fastest machine got through it in 99 seconds and the AMD 3500+ (the same one he has) got though it in 142 seconds.

But for applications that can use two cores, the results are dramatically different....

http://www23.tomshardware.com/cpu.html?modelx=33&model1=480&model2=489&chart=177

It's definately true the spread is more in that case. In fact, in media encoding the fastest processors may be 2-3x as fast as the slower ones. Again this depends on your perspective. I tend to think of the encoding as a batch job that you kick off at night and is finished in the morning. Do you really care if the transcode takes 1 hour or 3 hours?

[ken.bosley]

Buy a computer from HP every 12 months

Just a suggestion to increase my chances of continued employment

[rhegedus]

It's definately true the spread is more in that case. In fact, in media encoding the fastest processors may be 2-3x as fast as the slower ones. Again this depends on your perspective. I tend to think of the encoding as a batch job that you kick off at night and is finished in the morning. Do you really care if the transcode takes 1 hour or 3 hours?

Yes and no.

I tend to render 10 minute segments preview the quality of the final product before batch encoding.

It's these encodes during the day that I'd like to get out of the way as fast as possible.

[ken.bosley]

Encode/decode is definately what Intel and AMD are hoping for to push usage of the latest processors. I'm not sure that they have found an entirely legal application yet, but there sure are a lot of grey market ones

[Capmaster]

Encode/decode is definately what Intel and AMD are hoping for to push usage of the latest processors. I'm not sure that they have found an entirely legal application yet, but there sure are a lot of grey market ones

Explain please. I'm not sure what you mean by "legal" and "grey market" in this case.

[ken.bosley]

What I mean is that mainstream users (not the people that hang out here like us) don't seem to do much video stuff on their computers. In the users surveys I've seem video editting consistantly is the least popular application.

Intel has pushed Viiv and AMD has Live! but transcoding of video seems to be a corner usage case since MCE expenders and DMAs have not caught on yet.

The logical mainsteam usage would be ripping DVDs (like everyone does with CDs) but the DMCA and other laws have stalled what would be a major application from appearing in the consumer software market in the USA (although the applications are available in the "grey market" on the internet).

I know that this is not the case in every country in the world but most of the market demand is countries where this is the case.

I hope this explains better what I was talking about.

[Capmaster]

Gotcha! Thanks

[Lul2x]

If you look at the benchmark above the absolute fastest machine got through it in 99 seconds and the AMD 3500+ (the same one he has) got though it in 142 seconds.

But for applications that can use two cores, the results are dramatically different....

http://www23.tomshardware.com/cpu.html?modelx=33&model1=480&model2=489&chart=177

After looking at that site, I see that the Athlon 64 3400+ Winchester (10:31) outperforms the Athlon 64 X2 3800+ Toledo (13:28 ) in the CloneDVD Transcoding benchmark. What's up with that??