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vitualis
Moderator
Joined: 01 Oct 2000
Location: Australia
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| Baddox wrote: |
| ...it's just a bit discouraging for admins to say things to the extent of: "Everyone did a great job, take Bo's submission for example, it placed in the top 3 even though he was a complete newbie" when I myself was also a complete newbie. |
From my point of view, Bo is pretty much a "completely newbie" to making a filmed production. In his own words, he had never done so before and had only recently purchased a camera.
Frankly, I don't know what you are getting at. You did well in the competition.
Regards.
_________________
Michael Tam
vitualis' Medical Rant :: stay updated, read the rant
The Medicine Box
GNU VCDImager Authoring Guide Series
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Gobs
Member
Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Location: Denmark
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| Baddox wrote: |
| I wasn't directing any disgruntlement toward you--it's just a bit discouraging for admins to say things to the extent of: "Everyone did a great job, take Bo's submission for example, it placed in the top 3 even though he was a complete newbie" when I myself was also a complete newbie. |
I can see what you mean. Admins should have kept a lower profile.
Maybe next time they could post the films without any info until the voting has ended.
Bo
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ozymango
Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
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| Gobs wrote: |
Maybe next time they could post the films without any info until the voting has ended.
Bo |
I agree. If the goal is to just pick your favorite movie period (for audience members), and not be concerned as to whether the film was made by a pro, amateur, or whatever, no other concerns, then just post the films with no comments either by the contributors or the judges. Then have at it! 
EDIT: This isn't to say that I think there was anything wrong with how things happened this time at all, just that there might be stuff we learn along the way that could be useful in future contests. Just learning as we go, that sorta thing. And then after the vote we would take off the blindfolds and see who submitted what.
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Cobra
Moderator
Joined: 06 May 2002
Location: UK
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vitualis
Moderator
Joined: 01 Oct 2000
Location: Australia
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Sorry, but I somewhat disagree. I believe that the entrants have a right to post along with their film some background on the film as well. This gives more context to each film and makes it more interesting. Now if the entrant decides not to submit additional information, that is up to them, but I fail to see why others should be penalised. I do not see any benefit in blinding. If you don't want to get a complex about other contestants' backgrounds, then don't read!
Furthermore, let me remind you that the "Member's Choice Award" is only one of many. The whole point of this award was so that the public could debate and discuss each film and be acclaimed under public scrutiny. There is absolutely no point for the "Member's Choice Award" if people can't talk about the films, and yes, during the voting period.
The other prizes that were awarded by the judges are judged according to set criteria. The "additional" information does not really come much into play.
Regards.
_________________
Michael Tam
vitualis' Medical Rant :: stay updated, read the rant
The Medicine Box
GNU VCDImager Authoring Guide Series
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gadgetguy
Contestant
Joined: 14 Feb 2002
Location: Michigan, USA
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| Quote: |
| I believe that the entrants have a right to post along with their film some background on the film as well. |
I agree, but it wasn't clear that the entrance statements were going to be part of the post when the films were revealed.
_________________
"Shut up Wesley!"
-- Captain Jean-Luc Picard
Buy My Book
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DereX888
Banned
Joined: 24 Aug 2002
Location: beautiful
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ok guys, quit arguing
next competition will be described much better...
I dont know who is that psycho-slug-killa M. Cleveland (is that you lumis?) but he should contact me if he wants to receive his Kids Choice Award... I know its nothing, but hey - its always a beer, or a lapdance in Niagara Falls, or ... 
Perhaps vitualis or someone from mods could send him a message? thx
_________________
Big Brother in the form of an increasingly powerful government and in an increasingly powerful private sector will pile the reasons why privacy should give way to national security, to law and order and the like. - Justice Douglas
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gadgetguy
Contestant
Joined: 14 Feb 2002
Location: Michigan, USA
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| DereX888 wrote: |
ok guys, quit arguing
next competition will be described much better...
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Arguing?
I think we're keeping to this spirit
| ozymango wrote: |
| This isn't to say that I think there was anything wrong with how things happened this time at all, just that there might be stuff we learn along the way that could be useful in future contests. Just learning as we go, that sorta thing. smile.gif |
_________________
"Shut up Wesley!"
-- Captain Jean-Luc Picard
Buy My Book
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Gobs
Member
Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Location: Denmark
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| DereX888 wrote: |
| I dont know who is that psycho-slug-killa M. Cleveland (is that you lumis?) but he should contact me if he wants to receive his Kids Choice Award... |
Yes it's lumis. Have you tried PM'ing him?
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Gobs
Member
Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Location: Denmark
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| vitualis wrote: |
| .... I do not see any benefit in blinding.... |
Good point. You're of course right.
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ozymango
Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
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| vitualis wrote: |
| I do not see any benefit in blinding. If you don't want to get a complex about other contestants' backgrounds, then don't read! |
I sorta agree with you on this but at the same time, after reading much of your commentary I am becoming more progressivly unclear as to what kind of "contest" you're really hoping to run, here.
When you (personal you, vitualis) first posted the links to the various movies, you also and specifically wrote the following, in regards to why you didn't also post the judges responses at that time:
| Quote: |
| On consideration, it has been decided that it would be better to announce the awards altogether so not to influence the "Member's Choice" award. |
Then, a bit later, on the page for responses to "The Cunning Plan," you (personal you, vitualis) wrote:
| Quote: |
| This is my personal favourite, too |
No harm, no foul, but I must admit it does leave me a bit perplexed -- you seem to be saying that you think some things might influence one award ... but then post anyway ... not that I think any of this actually did influence the public vote, but the accumulated "feeling" I'm getting from all of this is that:
From both your posts and the posts of others (behind the scenes) this wasn't really the Videohelp Short Film Contest. This was the Michael Tam Film Contest. Which is fine! I don't mind at all, thanks for doing this!
You rightfully have the power to change the rules of the contest at any time, and specifically noted that you had a whole bunch of other stuff going on during this time that made this contest less of a priority than it might be to other people. Again, all fine.
But -- and this is definitely just me and I mean no offense -- I'm getting the feeling that you are somewhat "glossing over" some of the responses here that are not aimed at you and not personal, because those responses are not the same as your own. And in doing so, you miss out on some things that could actually make this contest better and easier to run, in the future, and encourage much more participation. But that could just be me.
Anyway, whatever you decide to do with the contest in the future is of course up to you, and I shall be interested in participating (either as an entrant or simply an observer) in future contests, and look forward to them and appreciate your hard work.
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vitualis
Moderator
Joined: 01 Oct 2000
Location: Australia
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Hmm...
I did not want to bias the Member's Choice Awards from an "official" sense. That is, so that people aren't voting with the knowledge that "this" film has already won the official awards.
However, I felt that the judges and myself could comment in the Member's Choice Awards from a personal point of view simply as we too are members of Videohelp.com. Similarly so for the actual authors of the films. Just as I expressed my personal preference, many people expressed their particularly choices for other short films in the contest. Let's be blunt -- the Member's Choice Awards could really only be completely "fair" if there is public voting for 14 days with no release of the tally until the end and no public discussion until the end of the voting period. This, however, is also entirely boring. The Member's Choice Award exists to make the competition fun and to help engage members into the competition who did not put in a submission. It is won on no other grounds than what most people like.
It is unlikely I will change how the "Member's Choice Awards" will be run in the future (except for trying to keep it on schedule).
Although I probably did do most of the work in the competition, it was still run from the point of view as a part of VideoHelp.com. I am one of several moderators of this site. Different aspects of the competition were debated fairly extensively in the mod-only forum. I was only one of several judges, and of course, the hosting and prizes were supplied by VideoHelp.com (via Baldrick who is of course the admin).
I've taken many of the comments on board for the next competition, and my aim for the comp is still for it to be open. I think that it is fairly clear that if it were targeted mainly at VideoHelp.com members, the participation will be rather small. I still believe that the competition should be mainly targeted at amateur film makers, but I think I may have a somewhat different opinion of what an "amateur" film maker is compared to others on this forum.
Moreover, it is easy to say that some things could make the contest "better and easier to run" when you didn't actually run it! Any suggestion that involves me doing MORE work, may well make it better, but would be extremely unlikely to make it any easier.
Now, comments about the structure and organisation of the comp from the "user end" are very useful for me at designing a better comp and some of your comments, ozymango, have been particularly helpful. However, when members start complaining after the 14 days of public viewing and after the allocation of prizes of apparent inequity, it does rub me up the wrong way.
Regards.
_________________
Michael Tam
vitualis' Medical Rant :: stay updated, read the rant
The Medicine Box
GNU VCDImager Authoring Guide Series
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Shadowmistress
Serene Savage
Joined: 28 Mar 2004
Location: Controlled Chaos
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Hmmmm.... I think I smell sour grapes around here somewhere.
If people keep nitpicking at this contest thing it might come completely unravelled.
So what if Speilberg graces us with an original masterpiece of his and scoops the pot out from under us? Personally, I'd like to see that happen cause I know the entry would probably be more entertaining to watch compared to the others. I mean, it's not like he'd come in and announce who he is and expect his fame to hand him the win. So what if he has experience? A good film is a good film. We're here to see creative, interesting, art. If The Blair Witch Project can do it, so can you.
This contest was a competition, not a "show us your best home movie" exhibition. The best film won because it was the best, simply that and nothing more. It has the majority of votes in the polls to prove it was the best if you happen to question that decision.
Vitualis, dude, thanks for putting on the comp and I never would have guessed this was mostly a one man show. (No disrespect to the other mods who participated.) It was a great idea, and I think you did pretty good for a first time run. I know you're only human and I can be forgiving of accidental oversights.
I probably won't enter next year either..... but I'll gladly sit back and watch you guys compete to entertain me.  I most likely won't care who's a pro and who's an amateur just like this year, and I'll watch them all and vote for the film I liked most.
_________________
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mattso
Member
Joined: 25 Oct 2005
Location: Australia
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| Shadowmistress wrote: |
| So what if Speilberg graces us with an original masterpiece of his and scoops the pot out from under us? Personally, I'd like to see that happen cause I know the entry would probably be more entertaining to watch compared to the others. |
You think so?
Personally I'd rather watch "Mrs Slug & Mr Salt" on an endless loop for the rest of my days than ANY of Spielberk's stupid lame "family values" crap movies. I hate that guy severely.
(No dig at you, Shadowmistress!  )
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Shadowmistress
Serene Savage
Joined: 28 Mar 2004
Location: Controlled Chaos
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That's actually my point. When you take his fame away, he gets judged by the same standards of creativity as everyone else. In that way, the playing field is leveled.
I'm not saying I like or dislike any of his stuff either, what I'm saying is that I'd be more favourable towards a good idea/ script/ presentation rather than technical effects or professional looking editing. So he better be coming up with something really good to show us IMO, same as everyone else.
_________________
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mattso
Member
Joined: 25 Oct 2005
Location: Australia
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Actually, I do agree with you. There shouldn't be any restrictions on entrants. For one thing, how do the mods hope to gauge an "amateur" from a "pro" or "semi-pro"?? One entry may be someone's 1st ever film, the next entry might be the person's 1000th (eg been making films as a "hobby" since a kid) etc...
Impossible to abjudicate!
But... shit I hate Spielberg. (Glad to hear he's retiring!).
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DereX888
Banned
Joined: 24 Aug 2002
Location: beautiful
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I agree on Spielberg, IMO he suck badly. But you gotta admit - he is still the best one from The Jewish Trio that is worshipped by modern Hollywood.
Anyway - how about forcing contestant to submit *anonymous* entries? That would be the fairiest way to run any competition and no one would ever complaint if any professional like Spielberg joined us (anyway - you wish he did and I know, there will be "Directed by Spielberg" in the end credits, but one of the contest rules might be requirement of "no credits included"? its just a matter of organizing it right)
Just my 0.02
_________________
Big Brother in the form of an increasingly powerful government and in an increasingly powerful private sector will pile the reasons why privacy should give way to national security, to law and order and the like. - Justice Douglas
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gadgetguy
Contestant
Joined: 14 Feb 2002
Location: Michigan, USA
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Your opinions of Spielberg are off topic. Think of it as "insert your favorite director here".
I asked early on in the competition if there would be any different consideration for "professional" work and was told no. I can tell you for sure that there are no sour grapes from ozymango or myself, but as participants who enjoyed entering the contest and had fun with it, we see some areas that might have made it easier to understand or run a little smoother. Our intention is to try and make it more attractive to potential future participants, it is NOT to say "you did this wrong" or "you really screwed up this". We all recognise that this was a first endeavor, and that there will be some bumps that no-one could have anticipated or planned for. From that regard it ran almost perfect.
Vitualis, Some of our ideas may not make sense, or you don't think are good ideas. Don't use them, we'll get over it. We're not trying to make it harder for you, on the contrary, we want it to be easier, so you'll be more inclined to hold more contests.
I know most people don't watch end credits, (my local cinema turns on the lights and asks if you're OK if they find you watching the credits), but it is the only way to properly thank the people involved in making a production. I would hate to see a rule that removed them.
_________________
"Shut up Wesley!"
-- Captain Jean-Luc Picard
Buy My Book
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DereX888
Banned
Joined: 24 Aug 2002
Location: beautiful
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| gadgetguy wrote: |
Your opinions of Spielberg are off topic. Think of it as "insert your favorite director here".
/.../
I know most people don't watch end credits, (my local cinema turns on the lights and asks if you're OK if they find you watching the credits), but it is the only way to properly thank the people involved in making a production. I would hate to see a rule that removed them. |
It is off-topic only because he didn't enter the contest (thus its his fault )
For the contest submission I see no problem with having credits removed.
There won't be any fair competition if Joe Schmoe will compete with i.e. Spielberg while evryone would know "this is Spielberg's piece, whoa...' I hope you catch the drift what Im talking about, since it is very normal human reaction to 'treat' a Big Guy differently than Joe Nobody - even if the person wants to be very fair; it is simply impossible, it *will* happen on a subconcius level. IMO it is very important.
Anyway, 2 weeks later (or whenever contest ends) all 'edited' contest submissions without end credits could be replaced with their 'full' version with all the credits and personal infos on the server and be available for downloads as it is now, so again - I dont think its any problem.
Anonymous submissions are actually the best 'fair & square' protection for all contestants.
_________________
Big Brother in the form of an increasingly powerful government and in an increasingly powerful private sector will pile the reasons why privacy should give way to national security, to law and order and the like. - Justice Douglas
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ozymango
Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
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Obviously, you ask five people for their opinions and you get seven opinions.
I like all the "banter" just because ... well, I love hearing how other people look at stuff! We don't have to all agree, in fact I think it would be boring if we all agreed on everything (which is why we had a really amazing cross-section of movies -- did you notice how differently each person approached their contest entry?
At the same time, ultimately whoever puts on this contest has to make some tough, hard choices and somebody's not gonna like something, no matter what. So I can see all the points. And of course it's easy to have a perspective on something when you're not the one who's gonna have to suffer if things don't work out!
All that being said, and no offense to those who did not participate this time and won't participate next time (except to watch) -- I definitely give more "weight" to the viewpoints of those who have something to lose here. Those who "pay the price" of either working behind the scenes to put on this contest, or who submit movies to be viewed and critiqued by other people. That takes effort, time, and, frankly, guts.
So next time, I'm really looking forward to see a whole bunch more entries!
EDIT: I think "Schindler's List," "Jaws," "Close Encounters of the Third Kind," and "Saving Private Ryan" are among the best American movies ever made!
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ozymango
Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
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| mattso wrote: |
| For one thing, how do the mods hope to gauge an "amateur" from a "pro" or "semi-pro"?? One entry may be someone's 1st ever film, the next entry might be the person's 1000th (eg been making films as a "hobby" since a kid) etc.. |
Actually this kind of stuff is relatively easy. For instance, one can have a disclaimer that anybody who gets paid for their work in the creation of a motion picture, is a "pro." I'm not saying that has to be the definition, but that's a fairly easily workable one.
In such a context, it could mean that people who've been paid professionally for work behind a camera (e.g. wedding videographers, educational film makers, whatever) would not be eligible. Again, I'm not saying that should be the criteria, just that there are reasonable stanadards -- objective legal standards -- that can be used.
But yeah, it would first mean having to decide what standards to use. For short films, that may or may not be problematic. But one could look at other film "contests" to see if there might be something there that could be used as a guide.
This is not a suggestion on how to do things!!! This is just showing some ideas about how people have defined "pro" in the past, and how that may or may not be useful in this context.
I can't enter writing competitions that say "no professional writers" simply because I sold a short story (for $$$) to a national magazine, and ipso facto I'm instantly a "professional writer." But that's a pretty specific and easy to figure out example.
But, one way to make things easier is to put up rules that are pretty easy to give a "pass/fail" option to right off the bat:
1) If a contest requires a certain word, shot, image, theme, whatever, and that word, shot, image, theme is not clear in context, and the rules spell that out, then bang zoom, the entry immediately is DQ'd, no offense.
2) If copyright issues are a concern, it can be noted that all submissions must either be original in script, film, and music, or a valid evidence of rights approval must be included at the time of submission. If not, DQ'd.
3) The film cannot contain certain language, images, etc. that are considered violent, racist, pornographic, etc. within X limits, and the judges reserve final say on what is considered "acceptable." If your film is DQ'd for violation of such rules, you will receive an explanation of the reason or reasons the rule was considered violated.
Again, these are samples, not suggestions on how a contest can have rules (including rules about "pros" that are both clear and relatively easy to enforce. It can also help take an issues of "personal hurt" out of things by making it a bit clinical, which, admittedly, isn't always such a great feeling either but most people can deal with "we had X specific reasons why we decided this or this" without getting too upset.
I suppose I may take contest "rules" more seriously (and somewhat more dryly) than a lot of other people, simply because I've had to work behind the scenes in several contests in my life (sometimes voluntarily, sometimes heavily coerced! ), and you're gonna get pounded by somebody who's not happy no matter what you do, so after a while you get pretty good at making a bunch of really specific rules so you can keep all the but most pissed-off people from going balistic on you.
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Supreme2k
Greetings
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: Right Here, Right Now
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| vitualis wrote: |
However, I felt that the judges and myself could comment in the Member's Choice Awards from a personal point of view simply as we too are members of Videohelp.com. |
Impossible. The judges and yourself are not merely members at that point (or probably any other). While you may think that you're "just being a member", others may see your comments as pre-determined bias. Just like an off-duty police officer in full uniform can yell "Stop!" to someone, and they'll take it more seriously (even though he's just a "regular citizen" at that point). While you guys (mods) are on this board, you're always wearing your uniform.
I don't buy the whole Speilberg anonimity thing either. Besides the experience, he has a truckload of resources that the average contestant doesn't have. Most were using their hand-cams and a couple of off-the-shelf (or free) programs to make their films. Speilberg and other pros have much better resources, even when done "on their own".
Lastly, "A good film is a good film" just does not fly here. You could say the same thing about anything if that were the case (to use a sickening example, say a Grammy-winning artist went on American Idol). That is just another variable to add into the judgement. If an adult reads a book, no one applauds them, but if an infant reads a book, people take notice. With the films, someone may say "that's a GREAT film, for an amateur!". Would they say the same thing if they knew that the person had 30 years experience and it cost them 2 million to make? (and yes, I understand that no one here had that budget )
_________________
Copyright infringement is not theft
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ozymango
Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
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| vitualis wrote: |
| The Member's Choice Award exists to make the competition fun and to help engage members into the competition who did not put in a submission. It is won on no other grounds than what most people like. |
Thanks for your insightful and expansive post.
Hey, that reminds me of something that did sorta depress me a little bit -- there were a heck of a lot of people (over 400?) who answered the poll about "are you gonna vote in the member's choice awards?" who answered "What contest?" And while some of those votes may have been tongue in cheek, I did notice that the proportion of responses to that effect stayed pretty constant over time. That is, with 100 votes in, 75% said "What contest?" And with over 400 votes in, 75% said, "What contest?"
Now, while I suppose the contest notes weren't displayed in bold type on every page, but heck, they were on the first page, there was a separate, easy to find forum set up just for the contest -- I'm not sure what, if anything, can be done, to get your average voting person more interested, but I wish there was something we could do to stir up more interest.
Was it the timing? From a personal point of view, anything that occurs towards the end of the calendar year (late November and December) just also happens to happen at the time of year I'm most busy with other stuff. I'm really into Christmas, so that's a big deal. So maybe that impacted the schedule?
But even then, once people answered the poll, there were more than a few days to check out some of the entries. And the most popular film only got 41 or 42 viewers' votes, if I remember correctly. Out of how many members? Geez, that just bums me out.
Anyway, I don't know if it's that people weren't that interested in general ... did our movies suck that bad ... ... was everybody else overwhelmed with other stuff ... or maybe it's just first-time blues, we had a slow start but next year we might have 200 entries. And vitualis' hair will turn gray overnight!
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Supreme2k
Greetings
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Location: Right Here, Right Now
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| ozymango wrote: |
In such a context, it could mean that people who've been paid professionally for work behind a camera (e.g. wedding videographers, educational film makers, whatever) would not be eligible. Again, I'm not saying that should be the criteria, just that there are reasonable stanadards -- objective legal standards -- that can be used.
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Which is why I felt I could (should) not enter.
_________________
Copyright infringement is not theft
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ozymango
Member
Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
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| Supreme2k wrote: |
| While you may think that you're "just being a member", others may see your comments as pre-determined bias. Just like an off-duty police officer in full uniform can yell "Stop!" to someone, and they'll take it more seriously (even though he's just a "regular citizen" at that point). |
Yeah, this is one of those "appearance of impropriety" things that makes for a bunch of sticky wickets. That is, and not just talking about mods posting, or even about this particular contest, anytime there is even the appearance of some sort of advantage towards one person or another ... that can lead to problems.
Like in pretty much any contest by any company (like the Pillsbury Bake-Off) they always have a disclaimer along the lines of -- "Employees of Pillsbury or their family members are not eligible for this competition." It's one of those "maybe not fair to possible particular entrants because they have absolutely no real-world connection with the judges, but fair in that otherwise there could be an appearnance of bias."
Yeah, it's legal crap, but I can see why it's a good idea to cover your ... rear, like that.
So it's a "better safe than sorry" thing. Also this is more of a tossing out of ideas thing, not "we should run the contest this way" thing, I'm just thinking out loud.
And Supreme2K, I'll assume that from your post you work or have worked in the video/film industry in some capacity that gave you pause about entering this contest. And thanks for your consideration!
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ROF
Banned
Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Location: USA
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Judges in my opinion should not express any opinion one way or another in a member's choice award. They should be silent during this time and only after the member's choice is awarded should they be allowed to express their opinions.
As a judge you are supposed to be impartial and not attempt to influence the member's choice in any way. By just giving an opinion about a certain project you are causing an influence because of your official capacity.
I agree with the analogy of other contests where employees or their families are not eligible to enter or win prizes. That rule should be observed for all contests. By simply stating you throw your support to one video over another before a final decision is made based on the members choice you have added an undue influence upon the contest. Whether it effects the outcome is irrelevant.
Judges and employees of those running a contest should not offer any opinions or commentary before the contest is completed and prizes(awards) have been given. Of course, that's just my opinion.
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dipstick
ACE in the hole
Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Location: Dark side of the Moon
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I want to thank vitualis and all the Mods for putting on this great contest. I also want to thank Baldrick for his generousity.
I feel the contest was fine the way it was. I seriously doubt a real Pro would waste their time entering this simple contest, unless they were doing it with their son/daughter as a learning experience. Personally, I wouldn't mind if some of the Mods entered as well. I was pleasently surprized by the quality of the entrants. I'm looking forward to the next contest.
I wonder if I can get my dog into Acting School.
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I stand up next a mountain and chop it down with the ledge of my hand........ I'm a Voodoo child.... Jimi Hendrix,
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cooljoe666
Member
Joined: 21 Dec 2003
Location: USA
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Well, all and good but WASp won the contest. The other flick was done by a pro, as indicated all over the net, and noone knew about it. I call it a foul. You can go many places on the net and see movies done by pros but they shouldn't be here. Spielberg has been doing this stuff for many years and I am sure anything he makes would probably win first place. This takes the fun out of it. 
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DereX888
Banned
Joined: 24 Aug 2002
Location: beautiful
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when it comes to famous and (or) rich people - its always like this.
Imagine:
Had Spielberg joined - people would complaint "what the hell is he looking for here, didnt he got enough oscars?!"
If he wouldn't join - people would say "he thinks he's better than us, thats why he reject us!"
SO lets just forget about it, contest rules didnt forbid anyone listed on IMDB from entering, so how in the hell it is unfair? So what no one knew (or knew it, doesn't matter) that someone is a 'pro', I don't recall it being named "Amateur Short Film Comp. 2005"...
_________________
Big Brother in the form of an increasingly powerful government and in an increasingly powerful private sector will pile the reasons why privacy should give way to national security, to law and order and the like. - Justice Douglas
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vitualis
Moderator
Joined: 01 Oct 2000
Location: Australia
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