DVD Recorder models - Picture Quality and Features Analysis

trhouse · Member Joined: 28 Aug 2003

To make it easier to access the tests for a particular recorder, this table of contents was created to allow the user to go directly to any recorder of interest by clicking the links below.

Adaptec AVC2200 USB2 tests -- trhouse, 09-28-05
JVC DR-M10S tests -- trhouse, 07-23-06
LG RC797T tests -- trhouse, 05-13-07
Lite-On LVW-5007 tests -- gshelley61, 09-18-05
Panasonic DMR-EH55S tests -- trhouse, 03-25-07

Panasonic DMR-ES10 tests -- trhouse, 03-29-05
Panasonic DMR-ES20 tests -- gshelley61, 12-17-05
Panasonic DMR-ES35V tests -- trhouse, 03-23-06
Panasonic DMR EZ37V tests -- trhouse, 06-17-07
Pioneer DVR 320 ( 220 with DV input ) tests -- gshelley61, 09-18-05

Pioneer DVR 531H tests -- trhouse, 09-15-05
Pioneer DVR 531H tests, range of input adjustments -- trhouse, 09-18-05
Polaroid DRM-2001G tests -- trhouse, 07-25-06
Polaroid DRM-2001G tests -- vhelp, 07-22-06
RCA DRC8030N tests -- trhouse, 02-11-07

Sony RDR GX315 tests -- trhouse, 03-14-06
Sony RDR HX900 tests -- gshelley61, 09-29-05
Toshiba DR4 tests -- gshelley61, 09-23-05

DV in versus s-video analog in for Pioneer 533H, JVC M10S, Lite-On LVW5006 -- gshelley61, 09-17-05
Pioneer DVR 320 DV input tests -- gshelley61, 09-24-05

LG RC797T photos -- trhouse, 05-13-07
Panasonic DMR EH55S photos -- trhouse, 03-25-07
Panasonic DMR ES35V photos -- trhouse, 03-23-06
Panasonic DMR EZ47V photos and temperature tests -- trhouse, 02-07-08 NEW
Pioneer 420 photos -- trhouse, 10-24-05
Pioneer 531 photos -- trhouse, 09-16-05
Polaroid DRM-2001G photos -- trhouse, 07-25-06
RCA DRC8030N photos -- trhouse, 02-15-07
Sony RDR GX315 photos -- trhouse, 03-13-06

Pioneer DVR-531H tests. These tests were done as follows,

Test patterns: THX file from "ICE AGE" video.
Source player: Panasonic DMR-ES10
DVR-531H-S connections and settings: The DMR-ES10 composite output was sent to the DVR-531H-S L2 input with LDP video default settings.

All test images were recorded to the hard drive first, then a copy list created to copy all to a TDK X2, dvd-rw. High speed copy mode was used except for the captures in XP+ mode which were copied in real time to SP.

The still images were extracted with VirtualDubMod in png format, resized so all images appear as 640 by 480, and then converted to jpg format with an 85% quality setting. Original images were 720 by 480 or for LP captures 352 by 480.

Image 1, THX original contrast

Image 1, DVR-531H XP mode contrast

Image 1, DVR-531H SP mode contrast

Image 1, DVR-531H LP mode contrast

Image 2, THX original black level

Image 2, DVR-531H XP mode black level

Image 2, DVR-531H SP mode black level

Image 2, DVR-531H LP mode black level

Image 3, THX original multipurpose test pattern

Image 3, DVR-531H XP mode multipurpose test pattern

Image 3, DVR-531H SP mode multipurpose test pattern

Image 3, DVR-531H LP mode multipurpose test pattern

Image 3, DVR-531H XP+ to SP mode multipurpose test pattern

Image 4, ICE AGE test clip from original THX test disk

Image 4, DVR-531H ICE AGE test clip XP mode

Image 4, DVR-531H ICE AGE test clip SP mode

Image 4, DVR-531H ICE AGE test clip LP mode

Image 4, DVR-531H ICE AGE test clip XP plus to SP mode

It appears that straight SP mode results in better resolution than a XP+ to SP encode but may result in more blocks.[/url][/b][/b][/url[/b]

trhouse · Member Joined: 28 Aug 2003

These images were created as above but with S video instead of composite between the ES10 and 531H.

XP plus to SP

XP

SP

LP

FulciLives · Posted: Sep 15, 2005 04:31

I just got the Pioneer DVR-531H-s only a week ago but so far I am loving it. I also got a comcast DVR unit so between the two I've been recording a lot of crap

I've only used the XP+ mode once ... did accurate editing ... then recorded to a DVD-RW using the OPTIMISE option. I then imported into my computer and re-authored using TMPGEnc DVD Author burning to a final DVD-R.

However I have to admit I have been recording SO much that it just takes way to much time to edit so I've been recording everything at the SP speed direct to the HDD ... using the EDITING MODE that is compatable with HIGH SPEED COPY so GOP EDITING only ... I cut the front and end to get it at or under the desired time limit (for instance a 1 hour show ... once you trim the start and end ... is usually just under 1 hour). Then I HIGH SPEED COPY aka BURN to a DVD-RW and re-author on the computer (I like using TMPGEnc DVD Author).

I know I'm getting less quality this way (lower bitrate) but it's SO much easier. If I had the time I would do everything at XP+ ... do accurate editing ... then burn with the OPTIMISE function ... but it just takes too long.

One thing that does kinda piss me off ... not the Pioneer's fault ... is that so many of my Comcast digital cable channels (Sci-Fi in particular) have ugly MPEG artifacts. Tis a real shame!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman
_________________
"The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
EXPLORE THE FILMS OF LUCIO FULCI - THE MAESTRO OF GORE

trhouse · Member Joined: 28 Aug 2003

"I've only used the XP+ mode once ... did accurate editing ... then recorded to a DVD-RW using the OPTIMISE option"

Where is the OPTIMISE option? When I place an XP+ capture on the hard drive to the copy list, I can set the recording mode, but have not run across the OPTIMISE option.

I am disappointed with Comcast as well. The blocks I see sometimes are far worse than anything I have seen any recorder produce.

FulciLives · Posted: Sep 15, 2005 05:39

gshelley61 · Frequent Flyer Joined: 19 May 2004 Location: USA

Nice tests, trhouse. I appears to me that there is a bit of image softening going on when doing a re-encode from XP+ to SP. Hmmm... I hadn't noticed a difference from casual observation, but there does seem to some compared to the straight SP recording. I'll have to check that out this weekend.

Marvingj · Posted: Sep 15, 2005 08:20

XP Mode looks very Soft & might need adjusted Setup Levels a bit.

strongbad · Member Joined: 23 Aug 2005 Location: pancrase

so my eyes were right after all. I knew those XP+ to optimize disc made an inferior image. but it handles the macroblocks better doing it that way.

trhouse · Member Joined: 28 Aug 2003

Here is something interesting. When the Panasonic DMR-ES10 was tested, I recorded an action sequence from "The Matrix" to create a vob file for upload. If I try to do that with the Pioneer, it says the content is copy protected and will not do it.

[edit] I will have to check if I ripped a sequence from "The Matrix" before and that is why it worked.

dcsoulchild · Member Joined: 29 Jul 2003 Location: Capitol Heights, MD

For those who have both the Pioneer 531 and the Panasonic ES10, which one have the best quality at both XP and SP modes. Over on the AVS Forum, there's a lot of flip flopping back and forth for both machines. I was wondering what the opinion of everyone on this forum.

strongbad · Member Joined: 23 Aug 2005 Location: pancrase

My eyes never deceive me. The 220 model does produce a cleaner, sharper image.

trhouse · Member Joined: 28 Aug 2003

There has been much speculation about what is inside the DVR-531H. So here it is,

Overall internal layout. The writer is on the left, the hard drive is center, power supply on the right with a recessed fan.

The power supply

The hard drive. Western Digital in this case.

The writer unit by Pioneer.

Lithium battery backup on board.

Tuner

There are only two large chips internally. Both are made by Pioneer and are located underneath the hard drive. The fan in the lower left corner helps locate the IC in this image.

In this image, the top is toward the front of the unit. The blue wires and the green pc board at the top of the image are the hard drive removed and resting on the top of the front panel.

[edit] I happen to agree that the test images look a bit soft. I plan to investigate this further. I did the S-video captures to see if it would decrease the softness but not much.

FulciLives · Posted: Sep 16, 2005 05:04

Well remember this is made to capture ANALOG video which is rarely ever going to be the quality of a studio produced DVD so you WANT it to be softer ... as in filtered ... so it looks better and you get less MPEG artifacts like macroblocks.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman
_________________
"The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
EXPLORE THE FILMS OF LUCIO FULCI - THE MAESTRO OF GORE

trhouse · Member Joined: 28 Aug 2003

It has presets for three analog inputs, tuner, VCR, and LDP ( laser disk player? ) and three settings for your own use. I used LDP for these tests but I noticed it has detailing set to off while it is halfway up for VCR. It might be interesting to try varying this a bit. Are you using the factory presets?

Beavis · Member Joined: 05 Jan 2001 Location: USA

Thanks for the inside photos!

strongbad · Member Joined: 23 Aug 2005 Location: pancrase

what input settings do you guys suggest for digital cable/satellite recording with S-Video?

I tried tweaking all the filters but see no real difference. it will either make it more blurry or not enhance the image at all. the only filters that make a change are the gamma, chroma, and detail. but that just darkens, lightens, or adds more color to the image, it doesnt really clean up the small mess around the edges. i would like it to look like the 220 model

TBoneit · Member Joined: 09 Feb 2003 Location: USA

Always using the custom settings as every tape I do needs adjusting from the previous tape. For my PVR to DVD recordings I usually have one of the customs set and leave it alone as the Video seems to be pretty consistent. Haven't really tried it on DVD to DVD yet. But I'd bet you could get better results using one of the 3 custom settings and playing with detail and noise reduction and maybe black level and white level while viewing the various test patterns you capped.

Thanks for the view inside the case. Looks like special version of the A09/109 drive and a Western Digital BB model 7200 RPM, 2Mb Cache drive.

Cheers

trhouse · Member Joined: 28 Aug 2003

These tests are of an action sequence from "The Matrix". The files are vob's ( which can be renamed mpg for viewing with Windows Media Player ).

The original
matrixorig1sec.vob

Still scene from the original

The straight SP capture
spmatrix.vob

Still scene from the SP capture

The XP plus to SP re-encoded capture
xpplusspmatrix.vob

Still scene from the XP plus to SP re-encoded capture

I do not see much improvement in blocks between straight SP and XP plus to SP. There are blocks left of Morpheus's ear, a 3x3 pattern of blocks to the right of Neo's knee of his extended leg and a horizontal pattern above his belt.

Strange that the captures look stretched compared to the original. All stills were resized to 640 by 480.

gshelley61 · Frequent Flyer Joined: 19 May 2004 Location: USA

The original image is anamorphic. It would be need to be resized to 853x480 to look right. The DVD recorder captures are 4:3 letterbox (which is how your DVD player was apparently set).

I think the straight SP capture looks better than the XP+ to SP re-encode, and it is surprisingly clear of macroblocks for such a fast sequence.

Now that I think about it, the re-encode from XP+ to SP must reduce the average bitrate by what... two-thirds? And it is easy to see (so far) that there is some softening of the original XP+ image after re-encoding occurs. DVD Shrink does the same thing if you apply lots of compression to the original.

I'll run some tests this weekend, too.

trhouse · Member Joined: 28 Aug 2003

I am looking forward to your results. I have tried a capture of the color bar and resolution image using "Memory 1" instead of a preset. The LDP preset does have some YNR filtering which was removed. Next the YNR filtering was removed and 50% detailing was added but the captured image did not change appreciably. The remaining "Memory 1" settings were unchanged and looked to be the same as the LDP preset.

While creating the two sequences for upload, I tried to make them both just under the 2 MB limit. I noticed that the "XP plus to SP" sequence uploaded fine but with the straight SP encode, it overflowed, when using the same start/stop frames. I had to shorten the straight SP sequence to upload. That seems to confirm your suspicion that the average bitrate for the "XP plus to SP" sequence is lower.

I agree the encode is very good either way and the blocks, like JVC M10S blocks, are not that easy to see.

vhelp · ..Semi Neutral.. Joined: 31 Mar 2001 Location: New York

Evening everyone.

Pardon my butting in..

But, what about just re-encoding the XP (or XP+) encoded MPEG ??
..instead of allowing the unit to re-encode.

-vhelp 3583
_________________

VHELP's - Sample Clips [last: 12.29.06],
my YouTube videos

vhelp · ..Semi Neutral.. Joined: 31 Mar 2001 Location: New York

I don't want to sound picky. Because that is not my intention at all.

I have been running several analysis with your orginal vob file posted
above, "matrixorig1sec.vob". I take it its from the dvd recorder unit.

You did not mention the brand/model/make of the DVD Player you used to
connect the Pioneer dvd recorder to.

In my previous experience with my analysis (prev thread topics elsewheres)
I found and concluded that the best player to use in between the Pioneer
dvd recorders, (ie, model 220-S) were from a Sharp brand DVD Player.

And, the reason for this is based on the MPEG's that the Pioneer 220-S
produced after being connected to a Sharp DVD Player. The analysis showed
that the color space were the same for the two sources, and the 220-S
MPEG's were the same. This is a HUGE plus for such a "concerto" and, IMO
proves a prefered combination for test scenarios. This topic could
have greatly benefited by this. Anyways..

But, in your "matrixorig1sec.vob" the color space seems a bit off, and not
matching the original commercial dvd disk. So, I think it is fair to keep
this in mind, when pointing out quality aspect from these recorders.
Please consider these comments with respect to the color bars in the posts
above.

Is it possible for you to *borrow* a Sharp (brand) DVD player and then
re-run the tests you endeavored above ??

In any case ...

The prefered setup, IMHO (when performing tests) is best when the following
are used:

** Pioneer dvd recorder - [ie, 220-S, and others]
** Sharp DVD Player ----- [ie, Sharp 600]

-vhelp 3584
_________________

VHELP's - Sample Clips [last: 12.29.06],
my YouTube videos

trhouse · Member Joined: 28 Aug 2003

"I have been running several analysis with your orginal vob file posted
above, "matrixorig1sec.vob". I take it its from the dvd recorder unit."

Sorry, that is not correct. I used DVD Shrink to rip the original movie sequence uncompressed and burned a dvd with Decrypter. I then used VirtualDubMod to take the still image from it. No player was involved.

It is mentioned in the first post that the player used was the Panasonic DMR-ES10 for playback of the dvd created as described above for the Pioneer. I have Sharp VCR's but no Sharp DVD player. I do have Sony and Panasonic players. I plan to try one of them to see if it makes a difference.

Regarding re-encoding the XP+, did you mean take it off the recorder and re-encode with a software encoder? I do not believe there is a way to get the XP+ capture off the unit's hard drive.

Your suggestions are welcome. I am not entirely satisfied with the results I am getting.

FulciLives · Posted: Sep 17, 2005 06:00