such thing as disc data disappearing? how long do DVDs last?

macrovision · Enemy Joined: 08 Mar 2005 Location: Hostile Territory

Yes but I'm not refering to burning the disc...I'm talking about causing a break-down in the AZO-Dye compound after the disc is burnt. The dye will have, at the very least a different molecular structure after it's burnt but of course the basic element of most things is water which contains oxygen so even if the dye isn't "Water-based" nine times out of ten oxygen is present in some amount. After the disc is burnt the Dye may need less of a "Frequency" to cause a break-down in the components that make it up causing one molecule of oxygen to be released in turn causing a chain reation on a microscopic scale. As for the frequency of the burners laser....I agree and know that nothing in the average home can produce that other than the burner but I'm not making a statement based on proof positive results. I'm just suggesting that proper storage(Not on top of the television) May play a role in how long the "Dye" discs will last after being burnt and lastly....HA!(Lastly?) Last but not least....The CRT may not emit a high enough frequency per say but it does emit ultra-violet energy in massive amounts which may indeed affect the dye compound in one way or another...Kinda like saying we're not exposing 35mm film to light but we'll put it in our luggage and allow it through the x-ray machine in the air-port....Sometimes it's not the frequency of energy but the amount and type of energy combined with the proper circumstances(Heat,cold,humidity,ECT.) LOL!

_________________
Is what we learn indeed a fact, or someones opinon?

spectroelectro · Member Joined: 17 Jul 2003

Unbelievable tripe. A CRT does *not* "emit ultra-violet energy in massive amounts." If it did, you'd get a sunburn. CRTs emit low-level visible light and low-level electromagnetic radiation, neither of which can possibly have any effect on the azo dye in a DVD-R.

macrovision · Enemy Joined: 08 Mar 2005 Location: Hostile Territory

Once again I'm misunderstood so I'll post a "slow motion" post.

If you concieve the idea that a "Dye based" Disc....when recorded on....the dye will change on a microscopic level....the strands on a molecular level will *BE* different.....If they change properies then they should no longer need a terahertz laser to change the properties of the dye. Oxygen being the enemy....most if not all things on this planet has at least one oxygen molecule....this oxygen molecule can find it's way out of the secure place in the molecular structure if exposed to the right environment. Any bonified scientist can tell you that if this happens it will be the only thing that needs to happen to start a chain reaction....in other words you don't have to release two oxygen molecules...not three....just one! Since the properties change after a disc is recorded the dye in turn...most likely becomes more fragile. Exposing the disc to the PROPER environment may only need to be "DIRECT SUNLIGHT FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME"...ever heard "Donot expose to direct sunlight for long periods of time"? And this doesn't mean that "Only the sun can affect the disc"...if you turn on a 27" television(It produces approx. 20,000 VAC) not at high amperage however it does produce enought UV to harm you or else you wouldn't mind sitting a few inches from the screen and we may be able to tolerate the radiation better than the dye...given that factor as well as other factors such as humidity and temperature, improper storage may be just enough to cause the oxygen molecule to dislodge from it's place in the dye's molecular structure causing the unwanted reaction and placing your "BURNT DISC'S" near the T.V. while it's powered up for a long period of time...in a room with high humidity,that's also very hot...does nothing? O.K. Einstein! Whatever you say.
_________________
Is what we learn indeed a fact, or someones opinon?

chas0039 · Die Hard Joined: 28 Mar 2004 Location: USA

The National Institute of Standards and Technology has a preliminary study of the potential lifespan of CD-Rs and DVD-Rs.

http://www.dvd-recordable.org/Article1815-mode=thread-order0-threshold0.phtml
_________________
Still a few bugs in the system...

Adder_78 · Memberi Joined: 16 Oct 2002 Location: Finland

I'm going to do something similar:

Verbatim: DVD Lifetime Expectancy

Let's see if the Verbatim (and of course other manufacturers too) is really that good as they claim

Well it's going to take "some" time so don't wait results soon

_________________
BitBurners.com

The High Definition DVD FAQ

Adder_78 · Memberi Joined: 16 Oct 2002 Location: Finland

Grrrrrr all my test discs were damaged badly in 80 degree in Celsius and 85% RH (48 hours).

Any suggestions what went wrong?

Image from tested Verbatim 16X DVD-R

Verbatim did the same test in those very same conditions. Hmmm

_________________
BitBurners.com

The High Definition DVD FAQ

SCDVD · Member Joined: 05 Oct 2004 Location: United States

Adder_78 · Memberi Joined: 16 Oct 2002 Location: Finland

Well I'm very sceptical person so I'm not taking those results as a fact

But the test method should/could be more or less right.

Edit: problem solved.

_________________
BitBurners.com

The High Definition DVD FAQ

macrovision · Enemy Joined: 08 Mar 2005 Location: Hostile Territory

Adder_78......Your very good....Not the "Theory" that others like to propose...."Hypothesis"....Some think they have all the answers and never or don't care to preform their own tests and post their opinons as fact. Your definitly admirable! P.S. I failed every class at least once....Except for Science!
_________________
Is what we learn indeed a fact, or someones opinon?

ana_costa_brazil · Posted: Sep 24, 2005 08:41

macrovision · Enemy Joined: 08 Mar 2005 Location: Hostile Territory

I have only this much more....recently I managed to drop a 5. Disc spindle that was full with recorded discs. I was shocked to see that the impact caused a break in the bonding of the two plastic layers the dye is between. The center of the disc shows the breakage to the point you can put a paper clip between the layers. The recorded surface shows the evidence in the form of a rainbowed bulk of dye. Information per say can be stored on dye disc but isn't much different than than flash chips or any electrical impulse induced storage. Once the host dies so does the data.
_________________
Is what we learn indeed a fact, or someones opinon?

lordsmurf · Posted: Sep 28, 2005 20:56

@ana_costa_brazil
CD is easy to damage, even by something as seemingly docile as pressure. The upper layer is not secured by plastic. So downward force on it, even in certain wallets, can cause issue. CDs can also warp more easily, as it's a single plastic layer, not two bonded layers like DVD, which is harder to warp (almost impossible to be honest).

@macrovision
Absolutely. Dropping discs is not proper storage methods. Discs are not super strong, so be careful and make a number of copies, or at least be sure the data can be easily re-acquired if needed. I'm not clutz-proof myself, I've dropped a couple discs int he years, but luckily none of them have cracked apart. Better media makers use better glues too, remember that.
_________________
digitalFAQ.com -- Help with VHS to DVD, DVD recorders, other video/photo issues.
NoMoreCoasters.com -- How to avoid bad burns, how to find the best blank DVDs.

SCDVD · Member Joined: 05 Oct 2004 Location: United States

ana_costa_brazil · Posted: Oct 04, 2005 01:48

lordsmurf · Posted: Oct 04, 2005 02:06

I would not stack those cases specific more than about 14 inches high at most. Unruly piles (not stacks) is a bad idea. Jewel cases would be fine. But the slims and other non-old-fashioned ones tend to bend easy, so take care in how they are stacked around.
_________________
digitalFAQ.com -- Help with VHS to DVD, DVD recorders, other video/photo issues.
NoMoreCoasters.com -- How to avoid bad burns, how to find the best blank DVDs.

macrovision · Enemy Joined: 08 Mar 2005 Location: Hostile Territory

I only stacked them in the cases they came in temp.....until I print them however I didn't have time and now have 200+ to print.....4 50 disc spindles already burnt
_________________
Is what we learn indeed a fact, or someones opinon?

Tom Saurus · Member Joined: 17 Nov 2004 Location: Canada

I am going to convert my whole DVD Collection from the Princo DVD's I have them on now and put them of Taiyo Yuden DVD's. I noticed these have printable to the hub covers. Does printing on a DVD Cover cause any damage to the DVD? I don't want to destroy my new investment.

Also Black Hard Plastic DVD Cases that hold ten DVD's, is this a good way to go? I am going to abandon the CD/DVD Wallets and switch to these. I thought the hard cases that hold more than one would save me alot of space. A Box of 50 could hold 500 DVD's that's not bad and they are only a dollar a piece.

I am grateful for videohelp.com. I have learned alot from this webite and from Lord Smurf's Website as well. I am going to check out nomorecoasters.com and see what I can learn there.

Thanks in advance for any answers you can provide to my questions.

non-linear · Encoding... Joined: 07 Jul 2003 Location: Canada

Tom Saurus · Member Joined: 17 Nov 2004 Location: Canada

non-linear: Thank you for your response to my questions. It was kind of you to take the time to answer those questions.

slacker · Member Joined: 05 Jan 2004 Location: SF, CA, USA

I store my dvds in size 10 spindles/tubs, the same ones that are used to store/ship dvds for sale. And then stack those 10 high. There are never more than 9 dvds pressing on the one at the bottom. Is this a bad idea? I check them quarterly and they all seem fine.
_________________
Matters of great concern should be taken lightly.
Matters of small concern should be taken seriously.

non-linear · Encoding... Joined: 07 Jul 2003 Location: Canada

UffePuff · Member Joined: 17 Jan 2006 Location: Sweden

The first discs I bought 2½ years ago have all ceased to function, 100%,
(OPTODISCK0001, DVD-R 4x). The next batch I bought 2 years ago still works (AML-001-00, DVD+R 4x).
Is there anyone experienced dito? Please list Disc ID here.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/20060110/tc_pcworld/124312

FYI: buy them 500pcs each time.

Buzzword · Member Joined: 09 Oct 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA

I just returned from video conference given by a major video magazine. The facilitator for the Video Archiving seminar stated that the lifespan of burned dvd's by consumers is around 7-8 years. He said this short lifespan would not apply to off-the-shelf dvd movies given the way they're manufactured and replicated; that they in fact DO have very long lifespans. The short lifespan of consumer-burned dvd's is caused by the burning process itself coupled with the degradation of the materials such has been discussed in this thread. (That was about the extent of his description as to the cause of the shorter lifespan).

I found this information to be pretty surprising and frankly, disappointing. I never expected dvd media to last 100 years but based on what I read, 25-50 years might have been reasonable. In any event people will have the option to transfer and copy their dvd's to newer media as they develop. Nonetheless I believe I owe it to the people that I create dvd's for to let them know what the current information is regarding dvd lifespan. Before I do though, has anyone else heard recent information about dvd lifespans that would tend to support the facilitator's comments? I'm mainly concerned with dvd-r's since that's all I use.

slacker · Member Joined: 05 Jan 2004 Location: SF, CA, USA

Which is WHY I always archive to MINIDV tape for myself and others. My VHS tapes have lasted 25+ years and are in PERFECT shape. In the end, DVDs are nothing but a high risk CRAP SHOOT. Blue Ray sounds promising due to the inorganic nature of the material.

Buzzword · Member Joined: 09 Oct 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA

Say, you wouldn't happen to have been the facilitator would you?

Actually that's what he said also; he uses and recommended mini-dv's to archive to, they've lasted for years with no problems. (He also suggested storing them upright with the tape at the END of the reel).

The facilitator was an independent video producer and so he wasn't representing any tape manufacturer.

slacker · Member Joined: 05 Jan 2004 Location: SF, CA, USA

Nope, I'm not the facilitator. But I can confirm his words regarding using tape for archiving. I do store all my tapes upright! Due to its overall construction, I was told to store any tapes upright during the VHS age of the 70s/80s. This also included DAT backups of corporate servers at the time. However, I don't know why it would be beneficial to store them with the tape wound to the end rather than the beginning. This I am curious about!

gadgetguy · Contestant Joined: 14 Feb 2002 Location: Michigan, USA

The only benefit that I'm aware of with storing the tape wound to the end rather than the beginning, is that it forces you to rewind before you can do anything and this retensions the tape.
(At least that's how it was explained to me re:VHS tapes)
_________________
"Shut up Wesley!"
-- Captain Jean-Luc Picard
Buy My Book

slacker · Member Joined: 05 Jan 2004 Location: SF, CA, USA

gadgetguy, I was thinking the same thing but have no 'expert' knowledge. Makes sense!

lordsmurf · Posted: Mar 13, 2006 02:35

You would do well to not put too much faith in magazine writers. They often over-extend themselves into too many areas, and lack the expertise they claim. They also blow with the wind, following one "scientific report" to another. This week fat is good, next week fat is bad (it happens in healthcare far too often).

It's actually been researched that dye-based media could outlast pressed metals.

I fail to see why people jump for joy over magnetic tapes. Tapes have been a lossy format (storing digital data or not) for decades now. That inferiority is what pushed for optical media to begin with. Suggesting people archive on tape is sort of like suggesting we use horses instead of cars. After all, a good horse can outlast many cars.
_________________
digitalFAQ.com -- Help with VHS to DVD, DVD recorders, other video/photo issues.
NoMoreCoasters.com -- How to avoid bad burns, how to find the best blank DVDs.