Correct color, brightness, contrast, & tint in VHS c

BrainStorm69 · Tobor Joined: 05 Aug 2002 Location: Texas, USA

Is there any objective way to get all these parameters "right" when capturing VHS, or is it just a matter of "what looks good to you?" I'm beginning to think this is the hardest part of capturing VHS. Please describe the method you use, and why you think it works.

lordsmurf · Posted: Dec 14, 2004 01:30

Restoration topic... moved..

Anyway, Elite Video BVP-4 Plus proc amp.
Sometimes, using ATI AIW card, the images controls.

Just a matter of "what looks good, and what looks correct". Usually, you only do this with bad sources or imperfect sources.
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edDV · Posted: Dec 14, 2004 04:38

gshelley61 · Frequent Flyer Joined: 19 May 2004 Location: USA

That's basically what I've been using to set up my monitor... the THX video test patterns on some DVD's. There is a luma (contrast, video level) slate - the white boxes test; a black level (brightness) slate - the THX drop-shadow test; and the multi purpose slate edDV already mentioned. I get my monitor tweaked using that, which then serves as a baseline for me. When I apply color correction and black/white level adjustments, I use the luminance meter in my SignVideo Proc Amp to make sure I'm not pushing anything out of standard... and my eye and the montor to do the rest. If I'm capturing a laserdisc, I may have a look at a commercial DVD with similar material as a comparison. After some trial and error, practice and test captures, I settle on the what appears to be the best overall settings.

BrainStorm69 · Tobor Joined: 05 Aug 2002 Location: Texas, USA

@LS - I'm not sure I'd really consider this restoration because for this I'm talking about even with a perfect source. That is to say, how do you know what you've captured accurately represents your source tape?

@edDV - nice post. I guess one of the main things I need to do is get a calibrated TV into my capture chain at the appropriate place - which I guess is at the point that it is receiving the same signal that my capture card is. I could do that, but then how do I know my capture card's proc amp settings are right to correctly capture that signal? Trial and error with a-b switching back and forth on the same calibrated TV between the original VHS tape and DVD I've created and eyeballing it?

My capture chain currently looks like this:

VCR--A/V Switch--Proc Amp--Capture Card

I guess I need to change it to:

VCR--Proc Amp--A/V Switch (has video monitor out)--Capture Card
..................................|
...........................Calibrated TV

At least then I would know that the capture card is getting the same signal that I've determined should be calibrated on the TV.

However, I've also thought of one other way which is crude but perhaps simpler. In the BT878 capture thread that FulciLives started, we compared outputted frames from our capture cards to a reference frame ripped straight from DVD. I was thinking that if I have both the VHS tape and the DVD of a movie (which I do of the Matrix), I could rip a frame (or several from different scenes) directly off the DVD and then by trial and error (and eyeballs) tweak things until the screen caps from my capture match the screen caps from the DVD. At least then I would know that the capture looks like the reference original. Thoughts??? Too crude???

@gshelley61 - You're part of the reason for this whole thread.

When you originally posted those Titanic screen caps way back when, I thought they were amazing. I finally pulled out my Titanic VHS (which I found to my chagrin was the widescreen version) and in the last couple of nights tried to duplicate your caps. I found it very difficult (if not impossible) to accurately duplicate the color, tint, contrast and brightness of your caps. And then, in comparing my caps to yours, I wasn't sure when it was said and done that I even thought that your caps looked the way I'd want in the end. But of course that's on my computer screen, which of course isn't even the proper place to be doing the comparison in the first place, as edDV properly points out. Anyway, that's what actually prompted this thread.

I don't know, maybe I'm getting too hung up on achieving "perfection" when "close enough" should do.

gshelley61 · Frequent Flyer Joined: 19 May 2004 Location: USA

Since I switched to capturing with a standalone DVD recorder, the process has become much easier. I monitor the output of the DVD recorder...

VCR-->DR-1000 Enhancer-->Proc Amp-->DVD Recorder-->Monitor

or, for composite sources...

LD Player-->Detailer III-->Proc Amp-->DVD Recorder-->Monitor

The JVC DVD recorder basically captures exactly what is sent into it... in other words, it creates very nearly an exact duplicate of the source as far as color, contrast, sharpness, etc. (at the higher bitrate settings). By monitoring the output of the recorder, I simply adjust the processors to my liking. I also will pop in a commercial DVD of similar material in order to make comparisons between my settings and a professionally transferred DVD. I also play back my recorded DVD-RW's on my home theater setup and my daughter's bedroom DVD/TV to see how it looks on a couple of different systems.

vhelp · ..Semi Neutral.. Joined: 31 Mar 2001 Location: New York

I personally never go by others "screen pics" or my own for that matter.
That is, I don't use them as gauges.
.
And the reason is obvsiou. Color space and codec. Our pc screens do
not duplicate in parallel what we *shoud* be seeing - as trueth.

There *is* no (IMO) right way. The correct way (as I do it for my DV
projects) is to not adjust the color setting at all. But, before I
go into a long and exhaustive discussion (ok, maybe I won't) I have
a question for you. Only because it could be an area that you did
not look into yet.

* What is your encoder that you are finding these issue to be bothersome
.. to you ??

* and, are you frameserving ??

* and are you using any Filter Plugins (how many) ??

Ok. too many questions

I don't have Titanic on VHS. I wanted the widescreen version, but I was
told that (those widescreen scenes) were only in certain areas. Perhaps
I was misinformed. Anyways. I did not get the tape.
.
Personally, I prefere a VHS tape that was Digatally Mastered as
these tend to have super-duper detail and quality, vs. one that wast
not Mastered. This is from my experience. Otherwise, I'd post a pic
or two, from my ADVC-100 or TRV22.
.
I'd do a DVD to VHS transfer, but as you know (or don't) when transfering
DVD to VHS, it suffers from the "black level" bug, and is too dark.
When captured (and although it may look good in your captured AVI) it's
way off the scale when you convert it. So, this would be an invalid
scenerio or reference

But, I wish there was a way to transfer a
DVD to VHS w/out this bug. It could serve as a good reference or gauge

.
And, I don't have the Matrix on VHS either. I do have the Animatrix though

animation on tape (widescreen version too) Anyways.

In my process for VHS, I don't ahve any color issies (anymore) and my
chain is:

VCR (JVC S-VHS HR-S3910U) -> ADVC-100 -> canopus codec -> TMPGenc.

* note, commercial movies require my TRV22 in place of my advc. But
anything else that *I* record TO my vcr is ADVC all the way.

-vhelp

BrainStorm69 · Tobor Joined: 05 Aug 2002 Location: Texas, USA

lordsmurf · Posted: Dec 15, 2004 07:57

BSR · On the trail Joined: 11 May 2003 Location: Utica, NY

hhhmmmm, only 1/4 a beer.

I would like to know more about the balck level bug also.
Was going to transfer some test images from DVD to VHS and then recapture to see where my process stood as far as color and cropping.

But this issue seems that it will render the color part inaffective.

Do you agree?

vhelp · ..Semi Neutral.. Joined: 31 Mar 2001 Location: New York

I'm going to have to do some HUFFY tests of my own. I have a
hunch that I'm wherling around in my head. (It does have
something to with color loss, as in your case)

The "black level" issue w/ DVD -to- VHS (dvd recorded to VHS)
is there. Some time ago, I found a link that described this
phenomina, but I can't find it.
.
There is an issue w/ this D to V, but I haven't completely
figure out any further details. Other than, for you all (those
that are interested further) to test for yourself.

My sencond theory (hunch) is w/ respect to D to V being that
your DVD player may have a BL setting, and eliminate this
issue, and those w/ such (if it works) will be able to use
*there* D to V for further testing (or, following this thread)

You still haven't mentioned your encoder. Anyways.

I beleive that TMPG may have an advantage over CCE (assuming
that you ARE using CCE here) Only because w/ TMPG, you can
turn on/off CODEC use, where in CCE, you are *restricted*
to a given cocec. That is, YUY2 source. But, I'm not sure
about CCE's true outcome. But, if you are using CCE, and
you have issues w/ color matching (your post) then my comment
stands, w/ regards to TMPG.
.
I realize that you said its not that big a deal (in so many words)
but still, it must be bother you, to get that much *closer*
to the original source (detail and all)

I also belive that (specially for DVD projects) your encoding
project should not be lowered to 352 x 480 (even though its
DVD standards)
.
There are too many tainting of OP's (mine included) about size
beging everything.. (ie, and 352 x 480 is better in some cases)
I disagree. I beleive that 720 x 480 (or, 704 x 480) is best
used with *everything* when your target goal is DVD. We want
*every* detail. Specially for future TV sets, which will no
doubt, be expecting greater quality or resolution. I do
realize that users want to fit *completely* a given source's
contents (ie, movie) on one CD (DVD-R) and a 352 x 480 is the
choice that other here recommend. And, that may be ok in
some cases, but if users are looking for *quality* then, this
suggestion is not a answer I would recommend. I would always
recommend 720 x 480 for DVD, where quality is the goal.
.
I especially feel this 720 x 480 should especially apply for
VHS sources.. mostly because the detail is already less than
that of Cable/TV/Satellite/DVD etc. Lowering it for 352 x 480
or to fit on a disk is not truely giving any serisous benefits.

So, where am I getting at, when I introduce size in this
topic ? Well, I feel that to some degree, its tainting the
color detail to some degree w/ VHS. VHS has lesser color
detail that other most sources. Lowering res adds to this
phenomina (imo) so I thought I'd throw my thoughts about this
in here

And, what gshelley61 wrote..

BrainStorm69 · Tobor Joined: 05 Aug 2002 Location: Texas, USA

Let me know what you find out.

With respect to my encoder, I'm talking about the avi capture, before the mpeg encoding process. Although now I guess there's another variable to consider for the final finished product

FulciLives · Posted: Dec 15, 2004 20:10

I capture AVI format with a PCI capture card so my capture is YUY2 to begin with and then I use AviSynth because I like the capabilites of it (and the filters for it like Convolution3D) and it keeps everything YUY2 and then I encode with CCE and it is YUY2.

TMPGEnc Plus uses the RGB colorspace.

So if anything one should get a "closer to original look" in terms of colorspace with a total YUY2 chain than having to change colorspace by using TMPGEnc Plus (VirtualDub also is an RGB environment).

- John "FulciLives" Coleman
_________________
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vhelp · ..Semi Neutral.. Joined: 31 Mar 2001 Location: New York

Sorry guys. I was having trouble this evening w/ my VCR and Cables.

I finally got things sorted out, but I'm pushed to the limit, and my head is
about to explode. However, I was able to fiddle a little w/ a previous
recording of my DVD movie, "The Fifth Element". This is a 2.35:1 aspect ratio
movie, recorded to vhs in letterbox mode on my AD-1500 player setup.

AD-1500 -> VCR (JVC S-VHS HR-S3910U)

Because of the "black level" issue w/ this setup, I had a pretty hard time
with a few capture w/ my ADVC-100 device. Afterwards, I found out that I
had forgotten about my IRE setting, and switched it back to 0 (which is
the lighter side of things) And, after another re-capture w/ the advc,
I found a slightly better turnout in quality. Still though, the color
seems to be washed out a bit. And so, it doesn't seem like a good gauge
(dvd to vhs, then capture from vhs) But, anything else recorded to vhs
is very ok. Now, for another gauge.

I did a little playing around w/ CCE vs. TMPG (just short scenarios) and
I found that CCE was fine w/ a Canopus saved AVI ( fourCC string "cdvc" )
and fed inside CCE. Go figure. Unfortunately, I couldn't IVTC the DV
source w/out having to re-compress it to DV again - which would void
the scenario/test. So, I continued to stay w/ TMPG, because you can do
pretty much everything.

@ BrainStorm69

I had lots of trouble gauging the color (as you did/have) but in the end,
I was able to get a fair output (from AVI to MPEG-2) though the final
source looked washed out a bit. Still, within guidelines, but washed out
none the less. But, what I did like in my process (and results) were that
in dark scenes (where the ship takes off, before Coby is put to sleep)
the scene was very fluid, and not "blotchy looking".. washed out or not.
.
I think it was the codec and the pre-prep of TMPG for DV encoding that
made the difference. Still though.., it wasn't a fair scenario due to
the taintiveness in the issue w/ the "black level".

I wish I had Analog Cable, and HBO or some movie channel that we
could use (gauge) and capture the same programs/movies for testing purposes.
But I don't. My only source is (as you know by now) Antenna.

Oh yeah.., I did try my hand at my two tests (one above, and huffy) and
my result w/ huffy was not a good one. I used Smallville as my content.
I also recorded it to vhs tape (SP mode) for future reference.
.
After a few test w/ huffy and vhs, I used my ADVC-100 (cause it does a
fantastic job of vhs tapes recorded by my vcr) and I found that it did a
much better job w/ min final encodes vs. huffy.

I'm still testing, but I'm pretty darn bushed out for the time being.

I could try and U/L a small piece of my results.. (for curiousity sake) ?

Cheers,
-vhelp

vhelp · ..Semi Neutral.. Joined: 31 Mar 2001 Location: New York

IMO, I think its virtually impossible to gauge by eye
the color level of your captured AVI source against tv sets.

The best pre-prep of color setting that can be done is with
TMPG's color filter box. When you turn on [x] Overlay
*there* is where you should judge. But, unfortunately, you can't
even do this, becuase the overlay on most cards are not the same
as that of TV set tubes. However, its in *this* overlay mode,
that you should adjust the color under, because it will *turn up*
the color level to that closest to the tv set's. When you turn
on the overly in TMPG (to adjust the color levels) you are in
effect, getting an accurate and final value for each color
platform you choose. (ie, Settings; YUV; CMYK etc) I use the
CMYK, because it offers the closest to natural colors. However,
only the ATI-Rage Fury Pro cards can best utilize the Overlay
feature that TMPG features (and we see more detail than most
other graphics cards do)

So, in short, you are adjusting the color at the wrong end of
the chain. Do it at the end, where you're about to encode it,
inside TMPG (and under overlay mode)

-vhelp

BrainStorm69 · Tobor Joined: 05 Aug 2002 Location: Texas, USA

vhelp · ..Semi Neutral.. Joined: 31 Mar 2001 Location: New York

You mean, if you use the color filter that TMPG provides ??

No, not really. But, that largely depends on the codec you are
using, and the color filter(s) you choose, during the encoding stage.

But, if you have a well tuned AVI and CODEC, than
in most cases, color settings won't be needed. But,
it seems that VHS sources do

In my test sample, I use CMYK, and only used the last seting as -3,
and that was it for color settings.

Don't forget, my source is DV. I really like it, because I'm starting
to beleive that it's 4:1:1 color space is not such a bad space.
the quality I obtain from this format is very good. So, I think that
this 4:1:1 bug (though it does exist) is over hyped too. Actually,
you can eliminate the bug, inside TMPG

and w/out using any 411
filter like vdub or AVIsynth

Like I said, I want to eliminate as many in-between steps as possible.
That means frameservers and external devices.

Note, you never want to you the HSV filter in TMPG. It's snales speed.

-vhelp

vhelp · ..Semi Neutral.. Joined: 31 Mar 2001 Location: New York

Ok. Here are some pics from my process, demonstrating the results
after a pre record from a DVD movie, which has the "black level"
bug issue.

The pics are from a recording I made from my AD-1500 DVD player to my
VCR on standard VHS tape in SP mode and captured w/ my ADVC-100 device.

(I used my own style of cropping and Aspect Ratio 'izing to 2.35:1 AR)

I encoded it to 16x9 format, and ran it through vidubMOD and copy to
clipboard the window image, and imported into paintshop pro, saved it to
a .PNG file (lossless) No resize or other nonsense was done to it. (It's
bad enough, so theres no need to make things worse)

These pics are from the MPEG-2 I encoded, using the above setup.
Oh, and the 4:1:1 bug is gone (thanks TMPG) .. see the red light

-vhelp

vhelp · ..Semi Neutral.. Joined: 31 Mar 2001 Location: New York

Before I hit the hay (bed) I thought I'd throw out a thought that had
accured to me.

I have the AD-500 (much older dvd player) remember ?
Anyways.

This particular model had its video source on the light side vs. my
AD-1500 's dark side. I'm wondering if I perform the same DVD to VHS
transfer, would I have this same "black level" bug, using the same
process I did above. hmm... I'll have to try. But it's too late
and I have to go ta bed. I'll try tomorrow maybe. This is very
interesting to me now

Cheers,
-vhelp