VHS to DVD - do I need an S-Video VCR?

tdweis · Member Joined: 01 Dec 2004

Hi - I'm a newbie - I've learned an incredible amount from reading the posts; thank you all.

I have about 300 VHS tapes I now want to transfer to DVD. They are all of TV shows I've taped over the years. They were all taped on hi-fi VCRs which were not S-VHS (i.e., composite connections).

I want the easiest, best-quality way to make the transfers, and I have decided to purchase a Canopus ADVC-100 as a capture device, based on the posts on this site & my own research.

However, I'm confused as to whether I should invest in a VCR with an S-video connection for the purpose of making the transfers. (I'm using my fiancee's old Panasonic VCR to tape these days since mine broke.) My questions are as follows:

1. Will I get better transfer quality by connecting via S-video rather than composite?

2. I understand that the JVC S-VHS machines are the best, but I don't want to spend several hundred dollars on a professional model when I could be putting that cash toward a DVD recorder. Am I helping myself by purchasing an entry-level JVC S-VHS?

3. Finally, many of my tapes were recorded at extended (6-hour) speed. Are there any capturing/editing programs I should be looking at which would improve my eventual DV capture, whether or not I use an S-video connection?

Any answers or other suggestions would be sincerely appreciated. Many thanks.

EvilWizardGlick · **Banned** Joined: 14 Nov 2004

You can copy with composite, yellow rca jack, just fine. In theory s-video will give you a clearer picture. But since it was recorded from tv, it may not matter.
You can also run through something like the SIMA switcher. It will convert composite to s-video.
If any of your tapes are copy protected, so you will need defeat that.
Plenty of opinions on what works floating around here.

JVC's run about $100.

You can purchase an ILO standalone dvd recorder for $149 at WALMART. Nice recorder.
You can search the site for more information on the ILO.
But it sounds like it would be what you are looking for.

lordsmurf · Posted: Dec 03, 2004 14:08

The JVC S-VHS VCRs will help you because of signal quality and audio/video filters, not because of s-video connection. I use composite quite a bit, and I've got 9800 and 7900 machines.
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davideck · Preservationist Joined: 03 Feb 2003 Location: USA

lordsmurf - I would be interested to know under what conditions you prefer a composite output...

tdweis - The VHS/SVHS format is component; chrominance and luminance components are recorded separately. An S Video output allows you to playback these two components directly to a capture card. A composite output combines them, forcing the capture card to separate them again. The separation process introduces artifacts, so it is reasonable to assume that an S Video output will yield better results. Also, the improved performance of a good SVHS machine provides better pictures from a standard VHS recording than a regular VHS machine can provide, particularly with prerecorded tapes. Since you have so many tapes, my advice would be to invest in a good SVHS VCR and use the S Video output. Since many of your recordings are 6 hour mode, you might benefit from a JVC VCR with TBC/DNR. There's a 7600U listed on EBay right now, and they show up all the time. The entry line of JVC VCRs (2900, etc.) are not nearly as good as the older units, and may not even last through 300 tapes.

lordsmurf · Posted: Dec 03, 2004 14:47

There are times where y/c separation causes harm. VHS is a composite signal. That easy.
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edDV · Posted: Dec 03, 2004 15:05

Wile_E · Desert Wanderer Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Location: Texas

You seem confused, S-Video is a type of connection. S-VHS is a type of tape. I use the S-Video connection all the time on my JVC HR-S9911. All my tapes are VHS, and yes I bought the JVC for it's S-Video connection and the digital filter and TBC, which helps gets the best quality out of your tapes. I've compared the Composite to S-Video output. I clearly see the difference in the output. (I have an A/B Video box to switch inputs on my TV.) S-Video looks better in all my tapes so far. I see no harm in using it, even though VHS is a "composite" signal.

I also suggest, capture at the highest resolution possible. I have a Canopus ADVC-300 and always capture my VHS tapes at 720x480. Some people suggest 320x240 capture for VHS, but I think that's bologny. I've tried it and still think higher is better. Computer storage space for archiving is always increasing, so use as much space as you can to store the video. Although I make DVD's of all videos, I also keep the original DV capture as a backup. Yes it takes up a lot of backup space now, but in the future it won't!

Before I got the JVC, I tried using a standard, cheaper VCR that I had. I tried my Quasar, Panasonic, and another I have laying around the house. They are all VHS models with HQ 4-Head. But the quality I got sucked compared to what I get with the high-end JVC. Even SLP (6hour) tapes look better when played on my JVC.

I bought a high-end model VCR, because I wanted to do all my captures right the first time. It is well worth the price.

edDV · Posted: Dec 03, 2004 15:21

tdweis · Member Joined: 01 Dec 2004

Excellent info - thank you all for your input so far (pls. keep it coming) - I'm MUCH less confused now than I was before! The more I think about it the more I am considering biting the bullet & getting a high-end machine.

edDV · Posted: Dec 03, 2004 16:49

You want more? OK heh

"even though VHS is a "composite" signal. "

Actually the VHS standard records luminance directly and separates chroma using the "color under" modulation technique, so separate components are recorded to the VHS or S-VHS tapes (or 8mm, Hi8).

VHS decks typically have composite inputs and outputs and must separate luma and chroma at the input and combine them at the output.

I will restrict the following discussion to NTSC. PAL is similar.

Input separation is the hard part and VHS decks take the cheapest route by hard filtering luminance well below the 3.58MHz color subcarrier even though luminance detail information may extend to 4.2MHz for broadcast or up to 7-8MHz for studio quality NTSC sources. Chrominance (color) information is extracted by notch filtering around the 3.58MHz color subcarrier. Luminance detail above the input filter is eliminated.

However, the information on tape is still separated into luminance and chrominance.

Commercial tape producers and dub houses keep luminance and chrominance information separate and full bandwidth throughout the process to keep the highest quality. VHS decks destroy the luminance bandwidth (detail) at the input filter.

Once the detail is lost it can't be replaced so looking at the output side, the goal is to both preserve any luminance detail that is there and avoid adding "distortion or noise" to the signal before A/D (analog to digital conversion) in the capture card.

If high luminance detail exists on the tape, keeping it clean to the A/D is the goal. That means avoid contamination by chroma and avoid artifacts created by bandpass filters. This is what the S-Video cable is for.

The S-Video cable also allows the chroma to be passed to the A/D without corruption by high frequency luminance.

Do you want more?
Nobody respects analog anymore

chas0039 · Die Hard Joined: 28 Mar 2004 Location: USA

This has been fascinating. I still am not clear on a particular situation. Suppose I recorded from a satellite dish using the s-video output into a JVC s-video input on regular tape. If I am recording into my Panasonic E-50 should I use s-video? My guess is yes.
TIA
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edDV · Posted: Dec 03, 2004 17:11

Basic rules of analog NTSC or PAL.

Never use the composite cable if you can use S-Video. Keep in mind that S-Video is still NTSC or PAL (but with luminance and chrominance separated thus avoiding "crosscolor artifacts").

Once the signal is contaminated by "crosscolor artifacts", you can't go back and it is very expensive to partially repair the damage.

If you can avoid NTSC or PAL altogeter with components (Y,Pb,Pr) do that every time.

Get to digital (clean A/D) as early as you can.

lordsmurf · Posted: Dec 03, 2004 17:42

An s-video is not better than composite, not in practice. Not with VHS. Generation loss can cause the signal to go wacky when s-video is used, luma goes completely out of whack (brightness in unstable). There are many times when composite should be used.

Sure use, s-video if it can, but at the first hint of weirdness, switch.
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edDV · Posted: Dec 03, 2004 18:04

lordsmurf · Posted: Dec 03, 2004 18:23

vhelp · ..Semi Neutral.. Joined: 31 Mar 2001 Location: New York

TGIF everyone

First ...

I think that all VHS transfers to DVD will be ok (even if EP mode) as long
as you follow some simple points to remember.

I think that EP gives a slightly bit more noise (for obvious reasons) but
that's about it.

You still have to determine the source's type (ie, Film or Interlace) for
best convergence. If you can determine that your source type if Film, then
you know what to do with that

You can tell right away what type soure type are (Interlace) for these
types of videos' (ie, news; sports; concerts; documentary; talk, etc)
These would require a 29.970 fps ith Interlace turned on to encode, usually
for TV viewing.

-vhelp

edDV · Posted: Dec 03, 2004 18:27

VHS dubs through composite can be a horror, that is true. Need a CSI forensics division. In addition to normal crosscolor interference, dubs create increasing timebase jitter and one pass through a VHS recorder destroys the phase relationship of chroma to luminance.

edDV · Posted: Dec 03, 2004 18:41

vhelp · ..Semi Neutral.. Joined: 31 Mar 2001 Location: New York

edDV · Posted: Dec 03, 2004 19:01

BetaMaster · Posted: Dec 05, 2004 14:04

It's my opinion that using a S-VHS machine and S-Video on a standard VHS tape won't help a bit. Standard VHS doesn't give the same resolution as broadcast TV, and there is no way to get it "up" to a better standard by using a better playback machine. The problem is in the recording, not the player. If a tape is recorded in S-VHS (or even S-VHS ET), then using an S-Video connection will clearly benefit you. However, if a tape was recorded in S-VHS to begin with, you will have to play it back on an S-VHS machine with S-Video output.

Since a standard VHS tape (even a commercial one, and all commercial tapes with exceedingly rare exceptions are standard VHS SP) doesn't record a signal that separates luminance and colour (like S-VHS does), then separating them at the output stage won't get you anything better than using a standard composite cable. The player is playing back a composite signal and using an S-Video cable won't create a better signal by the time it gets to the capture card.

Best recommendation - get a really good standard VHS deck with small playback heads so they won't be as succeptible from the magnetic signal on parallel tracks. That will be a better investment than an S-VHS machine.

lordsmurf · Posted: Dec 05, 2004 14:54

An S-VHS VCR, a good one, will at least clean up the chroma mess made on ALL VHS tapes. That's the only real draw to the machine, improving the image quality.

But even then, use composite, not s-video.
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