VHS to DVD - do I need an S-Video VCR?

BrainStorm69 · Tobor Joined: 05 Aug 2002 Location: Texas, USA

Since all we've seen so far is talk, but no one has posted any pics yet, I will try to do so tonight (if I can pull myself away from the Cowboy game). I happen to agree with edDV with respect to "virgin" signals (e.g., commercially recorded tapes), and my past experience from comparing frames from captures is consistent.

tdweis · Member Joined: 01 Dec 2004

Hi everyone: again thanks for your answers to my questions; your answers & further research on this site this weekend being up 2 further questions:

1. What's the difference between DigiPure 2 MB frame memory and the 4-MB memory included on the JVC HR-S9911U? Would it make a difference in what I want to do (transferrring non-S-VHS tapes to DVD)?

2. I keep seeing lordsmurf & others referring to a standalone TBC. Should I need that if I'm going to use a Canopus ADVC-100, which is supposed to have a "time-lock" audio-video synch feature? Would having both of them be a decided advantage, or should I just try it with the ADVC-100 & see how it goes? Which is a better unit, the TBC-1000 or the AVT-8710? (I will try to find some comparisons on the forum.)

Thanks again for any input.

BSR · On the trail Joined: 11 May 2003 Location: Utica, NY

300 tapes of non home videos, just TV capture.
I'd be buying a DVD recorder for the job.

davideck · Preservationist Joined: 03 Feb 2003 Location: USA

edDV - Great posts!

tdweis - I have a JVC 7600U with 2MB Digipure and a 9600U with 4MB Digipure, and I have never been able to notice a difference. They are both good at noise reduction (particularly 6 hour recordings) and their TBCs provide exceptional line by line correction. With regard to a standalone TBC, I use a Hauppauge PVR-250 Hardware MPEG2 compression card that introduces audio/video skew without a full frame TBC. I have no experience with the Canopus. I have a TBC-3000 which is essentially a dual TBC-1000 with proc amp controls, and it works great. It does soften the image a bit, and there is typically a 1 second glitch every 20 minutes or so as the input timing slides through the output timing, but I have learned to accept these limitations.

racerxnet · Member Joined: 06 Nov 2003

Your ADVC 100 will bypass the macrovision. You will only need the TBC for very poor tapes that drop frames. You will not know this until you try and transfer the tapes to the hard drive. Your audio/video sync should be very accurate. You can find additional information at the Canopus web site.

MAK

davideck · Preservationist Joined: 03 Feb 2003 Location: USA

tdweis - another thought. Some of the high end JVC SVHS VCRs (7600, 9500, 9600, 9800, etc.) have a Dynamic Drum system that dynamically tilts the scanner to constantly optimize tracking. Its advertised feature is to produce noiseless search up to 7X, but I suspect that it also provides tracking capability in normal play beyond that of other machines, particularly with tapes that are worn on the edges. This may be advantageous for your 6 hour recordings.

tdweis · Member Joined: 01 Dec 2004

Thanks guys for the info - davideck, I understand you love your 7600; I take it you would heartily recommend? I may have a line on either a used 7600 or a 9800, depending on the condition of each.

davideck · Preservationist Joined: 03 Feb 2003 Location: USA

tdweis - yes; for your application I would heartily recommend a JVC SVHS VCR with Dynamic Drum and TBC/DNR.

gshelley61 · Frequent Flyer Joined: 19 May 2004 Location: USA

Hey, I am just now checking out a high end prosumer Sony S-VHS machine... the SVO-2000 (the consumer version is the SLV-R1000). Very impressive picture. Excellent chroma noise filtering and a smooth, balanced playback image. I don't think these units have a TBC in them, but the video image quality is among the best I've seen. A quick comparison with my JVC SR-W5U (with DigiPure and TBC) shows the JVC has a richer, more colorful and smoother picture, and the Sony SVO-2000 has a sharper, slightly grainy picture with a bit less color and punch. Still, this Sony is definitely worth looking at if you have a standalone TBC and Proc Amp.

vhelp · ..Semi Neutral.. Joined: 31 Mar 2001 Location: New York

Although it wasn't exactly/explicitly stated, I also agree that commercial
done tapes as "virgin"

but I also believe that the video is transfered
in a totally different manner (spelling) ...

I've have numerious problems w/ my ADVC-100 capturing from my massive
libriary

of commercial tapes (I'd love to get them on DVD (now
that I have one) from my ADVC-100 - though mainly because this device captures
with ZERO noise) Anyways.
I can't explain it, but when capturing w/ the ADVC-100 and "commerical" tapes,
the quality (I should say, the detail) from the advc leaves the final
AVI rather poorly, once encoded to MPEG.
.
However, when we record from any source (as I've tested over the past
week with success) the ADVC-100 shines till dawn (and then some) with great
quality.
.
So, it must be something to do with the way VCR's record the
source video to the tape. I don't know. I'm just theorizing too

I was gonna post some pics (or sample clip) but I lost *the* post regarding
the questions / concirns of pre-recorded tapes, that I read about in a thread
somewhere on this forum..

.
The test of quality, was suppose to be in EP recording mode. I did that, and
was very happy with the results.., considering that I recorded in EP mode
(which is much noiser) but as I always argue, and will continue to,
"the final quality will result in the user's skills/knowledge level and the
technique(s) he/she uses in his/her process (from start to finish) that will
matter in the end" !!
.
And, the test I used was my tipicle Noisy Antenna signal. It's all I have, and
I am ok with it. Couple all this w/ my skills/knowledge and techniques, and I
have what I consider the very good comprimise, from Antenna source

I agree that S-Video is the best approach (if money is not a stumbling block)
I would opt for a decent VCR w/ this feature. You don't have to get one with
lots of bells and whistles (tbc, DNR, etc) I have one of the JVC models, though
it's an older model (before the jung came out) and I must say, that the quality
I obtain from it (any source, i.e., Antenna or VHS tape) is wonderful. Anywasy.
However, I'm sure that money is an issue, and you simply arn't going to go
out and make a bunch of "random" purchases of new devices and gizmos, only
to do a couple of hundred VHS tapes

..it's so not worth it. Think about it

I don't think that you'll need a TBC (specially if you're using the ADVC)
unless you know for sure that all your tapes have TBC 'related
issues that calls for one. .."did you check each of the 300 tapes to see if
they suffer from TBC 'related issues ???" and with what capture card ??
Ok, I'm going too far here

Anyways.

I do agree though, that 300 tapes is a bug order

I hope you are not expecting to do all this over night.. let alone get better
than "expected" quality in the end. (I'm in my 4th year (give or take) and I'm
still getting their)
.
I would think about a Hardware MPEG encoder, if your time is valuable and you
don't want to go the long haul that comes with AVI capturing route.
But, if time is not a factor, then an AVI type capture device is probably
going to give you the best result. However, your skills/knowledge and techniques
will dectake that.. though you probably only a "softmore" at this (at best)

I consider myself a PRO because I have a tone of scars from my
busy endeavors, not to mention my many trial n error scenarios I've
run over the years

-vhelp

BrainStorm69 · Tobor Joined: 05 Aug 2002 Location: Texas, USA

Well, I just couldn't miss the game last night, so I'll see about posting some pics tonight.

mmasw · Member Joined: 14 Feb 2003

edDV · Posted: Dec 07, 2004 14:30

gshelley61 · Frequent Flyer Joined: 19 May 2004 Location: USA

I can't recall ever seeing a VHS only machine with s-video outputs. Who made them like that?

Brent212 · Member Joined: 20 Apr 2004 Location: United States

I've seen non-SVHS machines that have an S-Video output, but they are rare. I don't remember any model numbers. I was looking for one of these awhile ago and I know I found a few, but they definitely weren't common.

victoriabears · Member Joined: 22 May 2004 Location: Canada

Some "in practice" advice from me.

I have a jvc super vhs vcr model s-2915-u, and it plays back crappy tapes much better than even a good standard vcr=Pansonic.

I also use a canopus advc300 which does even more wonders.

One thing I have discovered is that it is best to leave all this stuff on its default settings unless you can output the signal to a TV, I use a 55 inch Toshiba, to actually see what the change of settings does for you, you can drive yourself insane trying to get a "better" result.

Enjoy!
_________________
PAL/NTSC problem solver.
UK Equipment owner.

victoriabears · Member Joined: 22 May 2004 Location: Canada

here is a strange old machine on ebay:-

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=67829&a ... 3&rd=1

go figure.
_________________
PAL/NTSC problem solver.
UK Equipment owner.

edDV · Posted: Dec 07, 2004 19:33

'here is a strange old machine on ebay:- "

strange true but it is S-VHS

gshelley61 · Frequent Flyer Joined: 19 May 2004 Location: USA

JVC HM-HDS1U

40GB HDD recorder + S-VHS VCR combo unit

Original MSRP... $1,900 (Yikes!)

Max MPEG2 bit rate on the HDD recording is only 6Mbps, and there's no way to transfer the files to your PC or some other storage device. Maybe the S-VHS part of the machine is decent, though. It has the 4MB DigiPure processor just like the other high end JVC S-VHS decks.

BrainStorm69 · Tobor Joined: 05 Aug 2002 Location: Texas, USA

Well, since tdweis said the tapes he wants to convert are of TV shows he's taped, I taped part of a movie off my cable channel with my Toshiba M-784 VHS VCR. Then I capped them from my JVC HR-S9900U using both s-video and composite cables. I have to say there isn't much discernable difference between the two.

lordsmurf · Posted: Dec 08, 2004 00:31

Images don't show up?
_________________
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NoMoreCoasters.com -- How to avoid bad burns, how to find the best blank DVDs.

BrainStorm69 · Tobor Joined: 05 Aug 2002 Location: Texas, USA

Well, that's strange. Hmmm....I'm not sure why it isn't working.

***EDIT***

OK, converted to jpg and uploaded instead.

edDV · Posted: Dec 08, 2004 02:51

lordsmurf · Posted: Dec 08, 2004 03:02

edDV, those links are TOTALLY WORTHLESS for the conversation at hand. Those tests use high-resolution test patterns. This was about VHS tapes and s-video versus composite.

As BrainStorm69 has illustrated, there won't be any real difference between the two of them on something a "lowly" as VHS source. Not at all.
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edDV · Posted: Dec 08, 2004 03:10

It demonstrates the differences between composite and Y/C connections. Next step is to do it with VHS source.

I can't do it here but will find some links and give it a shot later in the week.

gshelley61 · Frequent Flyer Joined: 19 May 2004 Location: USA

There are times when using the composite output from a video source is preferable... for example, laserdiscs are native analog composite video. Using the s-video out from a laserdisc player is only a good idea if the Y/C separation filtering in the player is superior to the Y/C filtering of the capture device. In the case of nearly all name brand DVD recorders, the Y/C filter is a very sophisticated motion adaptive 3D digital type and performs much better than what would be in a typical mid-90's LD player. I have a Pioneer CLD-D704, one of the best LD players ever made, but the fact is that the composite video signal from that machine is clearly superior to the s-video output. Results are much better when my JVC DVD recorder does the Y/C separation during the MPEG2 encoding process.

BSR · On the trail Joined: 11 May 2003 Location: Utica, NY

Won't SVHS cable also give you better immunity to noise if you have them running accross other power cables and the rats nest behind the computer that I have?
Just curious if it helps any or not?

If so, then some people might get better results from using SVHS.

lordsmurf · Posted: Dec 08, 2004 07:52

S-VHS is short for SUPER VHS, a tape format.
S-VIDEO is short for SEPARATED VIDEO, a wire.

Do not confuse them.

And the answer is "no". Good shielded cables are all you need, regardless of the connector types and wires inside. Buy MONSTER for some of the best.
_________________
digitalFAQ.com -- Help with VHS to DVD, DVD recorders, other video/photo issues.
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BrainStorm69 · Tobor Joined: 05 Aug 2002 Location: Texas, USA

If I get the chance tonight, I'll try capping the THX test pattern taped to VHS.

mmasw · Member Joined: 14 Feb 2003